Poor Sugar Digestion. And Betaine HCL Experiment

[octaviankid]

So i know sugar is supposed to be the easier food to digest, but I whenever I try to "eat more" of it and lower my fat intake lately, I just feel bloated and uncomfortable. Would lowering fat intake too much interfere with carbohydrate metabolism? Just curious, because my digestion of fat and protein seems to be okay, but when I add in more sugar things begin to get funky. (i do fine on orange juice, but ripe & dry fruits give me trouble) Any ideas?

Also, has anyone tried using betaine HCL? I've read ex-vegans tend to have low stomach acid which may result in less than optimal nutrient absorption..worth a try??

Thanks!

 

[tara]

Could be the fibre or something else in particular fruits that you are having trouble with, rather than the sugar itself, if juice is going down OK. And/or sometimes the guts take a few days to adapt to a change.

 

[octaviankid]

That definitely could be it. I'll try to be more mindful of my fiber intake. Thanks!

 

[EnoreeG]

So i know sugar is supposed to be the easier food to digest, but I whenever I try to "eat more" of it and lower my fat intake lately, I just feel bloated and uncomfortable. Would lowering fat intake too much interfere with carbohydrate metabolism? Just curious, because my digestion of fat and protein seems to be okay, but when I add in more sugar things begin to get funky. (i do fine on orange juice, but ripe & dry fruits give me trouble) Any ideas?

Also, has anyone tried using betaine HCL? I've read ex-vegans tend to have low stomach acid which may result in less than optimal nutrient absorption..worth a try??

Thanks!

Yes, sugar is the easiest food to digest. So easy, that bacteria in the small intestine can gobble it up (and make a lot of gas) quicker than your gut can absorb it. Bloating is from the gas. The gas is from the bacteria. Did you have your appendix removed? That may make small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) more persistent and harder to cure. Either way, you may have excess bacteria in your small intestine. The solution is to try to starve the bacteria down to very low numbers. You need a special diet. It will minimize the bacterial target food (sugars). I know this is the opposite of your present intent. I know it may be the last thing you want to do. So if you get to the point where nothing else works, check out the recommended diet for SIBO (and this is preferable to a course of antibiotics - which is proven to work only temporarily!):

Dietary Treatment

 

[Zachs]

Less fruit, more simple sugar and juice.

 

[Sea]

No need to use betaine HCL, that only works in the short term and doesn't help the root of the problem. Low stomach acid is just caused by a slowed metabolism and it is likely that overgrown bacteria are causing you to bloat due when they feed on the fiber and anything else you are not adequately digesting.

Try honey and continue consuming juice. Also stick to refined carbohydrates and less fermentable fiber in general. White potatoes, refined corn flour, white rice and refined white flour are all sources of carbohydrates that should be easy to digest even with a bacterial overgrowth. Next, consider some antibiotics. Antibiotics can help you unlock your digestion so that you can eat more food and strengthen your metabolism before the bacteria can regain a foothold.

 

[EnoreeG]

No need to use betaine HCL, that only works in the short term and doesn't help the root of the problem. Low stomach acid is just caused by a slowed metabolism and it is likely that overgrown bacteria are causing you to bloat due when they feed on the fiber and anything else you are not adequately digesting.

Try honey and continue consuming juice. Also stick to refined carbohydrates and less fermentable fiber in general. White potatoes, refined corn flour, white rice and refined white flour are all sources of carbohydrates that should be easy to digest even with a bacterial overgrowth. Next, consider some antibiotics. Antibiotics can help you unlock your digestion so that you can eat more food and strengthen your metabolism before the bacteria can regain a foothold.

Sea, if less fermentable fiber is the rule, wouldn't potatoes, corn flour, rice, and wheat flour all be providing fermentable fiber, and being starches, cause it to stick around in the small intestine even longer than fruit would? This seems like it would cause more bloating than just fruit.

In contrast to plain starch, RESISTANT STARCH (as in previously baked, but now cold potatoes, etc.) seems to hold some promise for help with SIBO:

Resistant Starch

SIBO often results just because the ileocecal valve doesn't close between the small intestine and the large intestine. See this for how to manually close the valve, preventing bacterial entry from the large intestine:

Natural Therapy for SIBO

 

[Sea]

No need to use betaine HCL, that only works in the short term and doesn't help the root of the problem. Low stomach acid is just caused by a slowed metabolism and it is likely that overgrown bacteria are causing you to bloat due when they feed on the fiber and anything else you are not adequately digesting.

Try honey and continue consuming juice. Also stick to refined carbohydrates and less fermentable fiber in general. White potatoes, refined corn flour, white rice and refined white flour are all sources of carbohydrates that should be easy to digest even with a bacterial overgrowth. Next, consider some antibiotics. Antibiotics can help you unlock your digestion so that you can eat more food and strengthen your metabolism before the bacteria can regain a foothold.

Sea, if less fermentable fiber is the rule, wouldn't potatoes, corn flour, rice, and wheat flour all be providing fermentable fiber, and being starches, cause it to stick around in the small intestine even longer than fruit would? This seems like it would cause more bloating than just fruit.

In contrast to plain starch, RESISTANT STARCH (as in previously baked, but now cold potatoes, etc.) seems to hold some promise for help with SIBO:

Resistant Starch

SIBO often results just because the ileocecal valve doesn't close between the small intestine and the large intestine. See this for how to manually close the valve, preventing bacterial entry from the large intestine:

Natural Therapy for SIBO

Peeled white potatoes, white rice, and the refined flours don't have much fiber. They are mainly just glucose and if you just let them sit in your mouth you can notice them start to dissolve into sugar. Fruit is going to have more fiber and we can see from fruitarian groups that bloating is common with fruits. On the other hand, I don't think many people recognize a food like white rice as a cause of bloating.

Resistant starch feeds bacteria. Sibo is a condition of overgrown bacteria. For sibo, we will need to kill bacteria, not encourage their growth. In the following article we can see how little is known about gut bacteria as a researcher warns that the resistant starch she was recently recommending people consume is actually a bad idea and can make sibo worse: http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/201 ... ou_22.html

I don't think you need to manually close any valve. Broda Barnes explained that peristalsis, gastric acid, and digestive enzymes are all decreased in hypothyroidism. SIBO is simply a byproduct of hypothyroidism. It can be addressed by consuming simple sugars and other foods that a human can easily digest so the bacteria can't ferment it and produce endotoxins that poison us. Antibiotics are a good tool to use vs SIBO because they can knock back an overgrowth and allow you to digest much better so that you can increase your metabolism faster and make it less likely that an overgrowth can recur.

 

[tomisonbottom]

No need to use betaine HCL, that only works in the short term and doesn't help the root of the problem. Low stomach acid is just caused by a slowed metabolism and it is likely that overgrown bacteria are causing you to bloat due when they feed on the fiber and anything else you are not adequately digesting.

Try honey and continue consuming juice. Also stick to refined carbohydrates and less fermentable fiber in general. White potatoes, refined corn flour, white rice and refined white flour are all sources of carbohydrates that should be easy to digest even with a bacterial overgrowth. Next, consider some antibiotics. Antibiotics can help you unlock your digestion so that you can eat more food and strengthen your metabolism before the bacteria can regain a foothold.

Sea, if less fermentable fiber is the rule, wouldn't potatoes, corn flour, rice, and wheat flour all be providing fermentable fiber, and being starches, cause it to stick around in the small intestine even longer than fruit would? This seems like it would cause more bloating than just fruit.

In contrast to plain starch, RESISTANT STARCH (as in previously baked, but now cold potatoes, etc.) seems to hold some promise for help with SIBO:

Resistant Starch

SIBO often results just because the ileocecal valve doesn't close between the small intestine and the large intestine. See this for how to manually close the valve, preventing bacterial entry from the large intestine:

Natural Therapy for SIBO

Peeled white potatoes, white rice, and the refined flours don't have much fiber. They are mainly just glucose and if you just let them sit in your mouth you can notice them start to dissolve into sugar. Fruit is going to have more fiber and we can see from fruitarian groups that bloating is common with fruits. On the other hand, I don't think many people recognize a food like white rice as a cause of bloating.

Resistant starch feeds bacteria. Sibo is a condition of overgrown bacteria. For sibo, we will need to kill bacteria, not encourage their growth. In the following article we can see how little is known about gut bacteria as a researcher warns that the resistant starch she was recently recommending people consume is actually a bad idea and can make sibo worse: http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/201 ... ou_22.html

I don't think you need to manually close any valve. Broda Barnes explained that peristalsis, gastric acid, and digestive enzymes are all decreased in hypothyroidism. SIBO is simply a byproduct of hypothyroidism. It can be addressed by consuming simple sugars and other foods that a human can easily digest so the bacteria can't ferment it and produce endotoxins that poison us. Antibiotics are a good tool to use vs SIBO because they can knock back an overgrowth and allow you to digest much better so that you can increase your metabolism faster and make it less likely that an overgrowth can recur.

This all rings true for me. How do you get a Dr. to prescribe antibiotics because of digestion? Or do you get it from a mexican/canadian pharmacy?

 

[sugar daddy]

Yeah I'd love to know if it's possible to get some tetracycline online.

 

[HDD]

http://www.alldaychemist.com/catalogsea ... inocycline

I bought minocycline from Mexico but the price at alldaychemist.com seems about the same or maybe less. Definitely faster delivery.

 

[EnoreeG]

Resistant starch feeds bacteria. Sibo is a condition of overgrown bacteria. For sibo, we will need to kill bacteria, not encourage their growth. In the following article we can see how little is known about gut bacteria as a researcher warns that the resistant starch she was recently recommending people consume is actually a bad idea and can make sibo worse: http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/201 ... ou_22.html

I don't think you need to manually close any valve. Broda Barnes explained that peristalsis, gastric acid, and digestive enzymes are all decreased in hypothyroidism. SIBO is simply a byproduct of hypothyroidism. It can be addressed by consuming simple sugars and other foods that a human can easily digest so the bacteria can't ferment it and produce endotoxins that poison us. Antibiotics are a good tool to use vs SIBO because they can knock back an overgrowth and allow you to digest much better so that you can increase your metabolism faster and make it less likely that an overgrowth can recur.

Sea, it seems the article you cited was about insulin resistance, and effects on weight gain from starch, including resistant starch. It had nothing on any effect of resistant starch in the small intestine (SI) and nothing specifically on resistant starch feeding bacteria in the SI.

Resistant starch is, by definition, resistant to digestion in the small intestine, even by SI dwelling bacteria, thus the name "resistant".

I sort of take issue with your claim that you need to kill bacteria in the small intestine also. Let them starve is more appropriate. The average bacterial life is 20 minutes. Just not providing food for the critters will do the job. Resistant starch happens to be something that will feed the human (in the large intestine) but do nothing for SI yeast and bacteria. Seems like a good idea still.

SIBO is very often more than a byproduct of hypothyroidism. Read about people who have had the appendix removed and then suffer SIBO as a consequence because the ileocaecal valve no longer closes properly. The "manual" valve closing technique is meant for such SIBO sufferers. Not everyone. But it's effective and helps cure SIBO in short order if that was the problem. So information on this is quite in order on a forum like this, in my mind, as there are many people who may read this who have had the appendix removed and also suffer from SIBO.

Any treatment which can fix SIBO is preferable to one with antibiotics as I see it. A person is becoming a home to more and more resistant microbes the more one uses antibiotics. This amounts to putting more and more power in the pathogenic bacteria's hands. I don't know what in terms of "quality of life" features justifies that, but it's certainly something I wouldn't risk on my own body.

 

[Zachs]

So are you saying Peat is wrong when suggesting antibiotic use? Your signature says he isnt.

Also by definition, resistant is not the same as impervious. How can you be certain that resistant starch does not feed small intestine dwelling bacteria?

 

[EnoreeG]

So are you saying Peat is wrong when suggesting antibiotic use? Your signature says he isnt.

Also by definition, resistant is not the same as impervious. How can you be certain that resistant starch does not feed small intestine dwelling bacteria?

Both my signature line, and Peat's statements were made in the past. Ask Peat what he says today. If necessary, I'll change my signature. More and more is said against antibiotic use every day. Knowledge changes. Wisdom is allowed to grow. Now allowing for growth in wisdom is a questionable pursuit, no?

Certain of resistant starch not feeding bacteria in the small intestine? The fact that I'm certain should mean nothing to another person. Why trust me. I'm just citing what I read. Maybe resistant starch is totally named wrong. But I haven't read anywhere, or heard anyone ever say they even thought it might be non-resistant, especially in the small intestine. So questioning me is not a way to make progress. I could admit at the end of this post that I think I'm wrong and it would have no effect whatsoever on what resistant starch does in the intestines. I suggest, if you are interested, that you search and read up on this. I don't happen to have SIBO, so, though I'm trying to help, I have less incentive than others on getting to the root of an SIBO problem.

From what I've read so far though, resistant starch may be part of the solution. What, that you've read or discovered so far leads you to believe that it cannot be, Zachs? What do you suggest to help with SIBO?

 

[Zachs]

Eliminating starch.

 

[Brian]

Eliminating starch.

I don't think you really need to completely eliminate starch if you fully salivate and chew your starch foods before swallowing. I notice a big difference when I make an effort to do this. I notice a lot more warmth as the meal is digesting and no bacterial overgrowth issues. You can feel in your mouth when the amylase enzyme has mostly broken it down into glucose.

I also notice certain foods respond better to oral amylase. The cheapest white rice doesn't dissolve very well, but potatoes and more expensive types of rice like basmati seem to break down almost completely even before swallowing. It must have something to do with the type of starch molecule.

It takes more time, so eating a large portion of starch can take a long time to chew and salivate this way, so I usually limit to smaller portions of starch per meal.

 

[EnoreeG]

Eliminating starch.

Totally a good thought, Zachs. It's more the safe, (possibly) sure way. I just say "possibly" because each case is different, not because I think there's anything wrong with eliminating all starch.

The way I got into my "resistant starch" post, if you may not remember, was more in line with your thinking, then I seemed have to defend it later, but I started with

No need to use betaine HCL, that only works in the short term and doesn't help the root of the problem. Low stomach acid is just caused by a slowed metabolism and it is likely that overgrown bacteria are causing you to bloat due when they feed on the fiber and anything else you are not adequately digesting.

Try honey and continue consuming juice. Also stick to refined carbohydrates and less fermentable fiber in general. White potatoes, refined corn flour, white rice and refined white flour are all sources of carbohydrates that should be easy to digest even with a bacterial overgrowth. Next, consider some antibiotics. Antibiotics can help you unlock your digestion so that you can eat more food and strengthen your metabolism before the bacteria can regain a foothold.

Sea, if less fermentable fiber is the rule, wouldn't potatoes, corn flour, rice, and wheat flour all be providing fermentable fiber, and being starches, cause it to stick around in the small intestine even longer than fruit would? This seems like it would cause more bloating than just fruit.

In contrast to plain starch, RESISTANT STARCH (as in previously baked, but now cold potatoes, etc.) seems to hold some promise for help with SIBO:

Resistant Starch

So like you, I was originally recommending, in contrast to Sea, to remove the starchy grains and potatoes as starch sources, but saying that resistant starch seems to hold some promise. If someone wanted to try to be very safe though to get SIBO stopped, I'd agree with you that removing all starch might be key, and then if one wants starch, just for the taste, adding in the resistant starch later would be an option to try.

Wow, if I had SIBO, I wouldn't even eat the sweets and fruits. Yes, they get absorbed the fastest, but what if the SIBO is due to a serious absorbtion or enzyme or leaky ileocaecal valve problem and the sweets are still aggravating the problem? I think I'd cut those, eat some fiber, such as cooked spinach, and yes, carrots, and otherwise just protein & fat, and see if I could drag the mass of bacteria mostly right out of the small intestine. This might fix SIBO in a couple of days.

But then I'm a fiber freak. Not that Peat is against this. He admits the fiber keeps the motility high, which is one of the problems in SIBO - slowness of digestion. Lingering, undigested food ramps up the bacteria count. If this is leftover fiber in the large intestine, that's fine. Bacterial digestion of fiber is supposed to take a whole day. But in the small intestine, motility is needed, because bacteria are not wanted there.

Brian! Good thought. What is the mouth sensation when the starches are converted?

 

[Sea]

Resistant starch feeds bacteria. Sibo is a condition of overgrown bacteria. For sibo, we will need to kill bacteria, not encourage their growth. In the following article we can see how little is known about gut bacteria as a researcher warns that the resistant starch she was recently recommending people consume is actually a bad idea and can make sibo worse: http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/201 ... ou_22.html

I don't think you need to manually close any valve. Broda Barnes explained that peristalsis, gastric acid, and digestive enzymes are all decreased in hypothyroidism. SIBO is simply a byproduct of hypothyroidism. It can be addressed by consuming simple sugars and other foods that a human can easily digest so the bacteria can't ferment it and produce endotoxins that poison us. Antibiotics are a good tool to use vs SIBO because they can knock back an overgrowth and allow you to digest much better so that you can increase your metabolism faster and make it less likely that an overgrowth can recur.

Sea, it seems the article you cited was about insulin resistance, and effects on weight gain from starch, including resistant starch. It had nothing on any effect of resistant starch in the small intestine (SI) and nothing specifically on resistant starch feeding bacteria in the SI.

Resistant starch is, by definition, resistant to digestion in the small intestine, even by SI dwelling bacteria, thus the name "resistant".

The title of the article I linked to was: "High Dose Potato Starch Can Make You Fatter, Insulin Resistant, Feed Vipers in Your UPPER GUT If You Are MISSING Bifidobacteria longum and Akkermansia mucinophila, aka SAD Microbial Fingerprint (Part IV) NSFW "

Resistant starch only means that it is resistant to human digestion, not bacterial digestion. It doesn't matter where the starch is bacteria will eat it when they see it. The fourth paragraph of the article states:

"There is a false 'myth', untruth pseudoscience that potato starch granules will 'carry' pathogenic bacteria away perpetuated on the internet. Few vipers in the uppergut are 'carried away' from what I observe. Potato starch and raw starches ferments furiously and fervently where it lands. Worse, potato starch 'removes' the potent guardians of the uppergut, leaving the uppergut vulnerable to infections, E coli, fungi/candida and other potential commensals-turned-vipers and the vipers themselves."

Ray Peat agrees when he states: “Bacteria thrive on starches that aren’t quickly digested, and the bacteria convert the energy into bulk, and stimulate the intestine. (But at the same time, they are making the toxins that affect the hormones.)” (http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... -starches/)

The article also gives evidence that resistant starch can screw really screw you up:

"Bodinham et al 2014. Authors were shocked to find that 40g HAM-RS2 (raw starch, resistant starch type II) failed to improve blood sugars, hyperinsulinemia, or glycemic control. High dosage raw starches actually worsened many parameters including insulin resistance. Several other human studies reflect these results (previous post: sorry, resistant starch type 2 won't induce fat or weight loss). It appears RS2 can induce changes in metabolism that don't show up in rodent studies."

"Raw high-amylose maize RS2 high dosage 40 grams daily for 12 weeks appeared to make subjects with controlled T2 Diabetes fatter.............and higher inflammatory IL6, 30% more fat in the pancreas ('fatty organs'), higher triglycerides (which corresponds higher insulin and IR, insulin resistance), and higher LDL (dense, atherogenic LDL-particles)."

These findings are consistent with Ray Peat's recommendations to avoid molecules like raw potato starch and other resistant starches due to the damaging byproducts of bacterial fermentation, as well as their ability to persorb into the blood stream and cause all sorts of problems:

“Bacterial endotoxin increases serotonin release from the intestine, and increases its synthesis in the brain (Nolan, et al., 2000) and liver (Bado, 1983). It also stimulates its release from platelets, and reduces the lungs’ ability to destroy it. The formation of serotonin in the intestine is also stimulated by the lactate, propionate and butyrate that are formed by bacteria fermenting fiber and starch, but these bacteria also produce endotoxin. The inflammation-producing effects of lactate, serotonin, and endotoxin are overlapping, additive, and sometimes synergistic, along with histamine, nitric oxide, bradykinin, and the cytokines.” (http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... -starches/)

"Also in the 1960s, Gerhard Volkheimer rediscovered the phenomenon of persorption, which had been demonstrated a century earlier. Starch grains, or other hard particles, can be found in the blood, urine, and other fluids after they have been ingested. The iodine stain for starch, and the characteristic shape of the granules, makes their observation very easy." (http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml)

"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue." (http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml)

I sort of take issue with your claim that you need to kill bacteria in the small intestine also. Let them starve is more appropriate. The average bacterial life is 20 minutes. Just not providing food for the critters will do the job. Resistant starch happens to be something that will feed the human (in the large intestine) but do nothing for SI yeast and bacteria. Seems like a good idea still.

SIBO is very often more than a byproduct of hypothyroidism. Read about people who have had the appendix removed and then suffer SIBO as a consequence because the ileocaecal valve no longer closes properly. The "manual" valve closing technique is meant for such SIBO sufferers. Not everyone. But it's effective and helps cure SIBO in short order if that was the problem. So information on this is quite in order on a forum like this, in my mind, as there are many people who may read this who have had the appendix removed and also suffer from SIBO.

Any treatment which can fix SIBO is preferable to one with antibiotics as I see it. A person is becoming a home to more and more resistant microbes the more one uses antibiotics. This amounts to putting more and more power in the pathogenic bacteria's hands. I don't know what in terms of "quality of life" features justifies that, but it's certainly something I wouldn't risk on my own body.

You can't starve sibo away because sibo isn't caused by bacteria randomly being in the small intestine. No one would ever talk about sibo if all you had to do was not eat for 20 minutes to get rid it of it. Have you considered that these appendix people you speak of are probably all hypothyroid. Surgery is a big stress and the majority of people without an appendix don't get SIBO.

Ray Peat explains: “The upper part of the small intestine is sterile in healthy people. In the last 40 years, there has been increasing interest in the “contaminated small-bowel syndrome,” or the “small intestine bacterial overgrowth syndrome.” When peristalsis is reduced, for example by hypothyroidism, along with reduced secretion of digestive fluids, bacteria are able to thrive in the upper part of the intestine. Sugars are very quickly absorbed in the upper intestine, so starches and fibers normally provide most of the nourishment for bowel bacteria…Thyroid hormone increases digestive activity, including stomach acid and peristalsis, and both thyroid and progesterone increase the ability of the intestine to absorb sugars quickly; their deficiency can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches.” (http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... tolerance/)

Antibiotics are the fastest way to kill off a sibo infection. I think that with a metabolically supportive high carbohydrate low fiber diet it is possible, but it could take years when an antibiotic can do the job in a week. This is a considerable amount of time for a person to be inadequately digesting food all to avoid antibiotics which have a long history of usage by humans.

"A chemical analysis of the bones of ancient Nubians shows that they were regularly consuming tetracycline, most likely in their beer. The finding is the strongest evidence yet that the art of making antibiotics, which officially dates to the discovery of penicillin in 1928, was common practice nearly 2,000 years ago."

"The ancient Egyptians and Jordanians used beer to treat gum disease and other ailments, Armelagos says, adding that the complex art of fermenting antibiotics was probably widespread in ancient times, and handed down through generations."

"Even the tibia and skull belonging to a 4-year-old were full of tetracycline, suggesting that they were giving high doses to the child to try and cure him of illness, Nelson says." (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 094246.htm)

I think the idea of bacterial resistance to antibiotics is just another misunderstanding about genes. They tested isolated people before and found they had the same antibiotic resistant bacteria, yet had never taken antibiotics. Sure not all bacteria are gonna be killed by 1 type of antibiotic alone, but all bacteria are doing damage to the human, so simply killing some off gives the immune system a better chance at killing the others.

 

[EnoreeG]

Resistant starch feeds bacteria. Sibo is a condition of overgrown bacteria. For sibo, we will need to kill bacteria, not encourage their growth. In the following article we can see how little is known about gut bacteria as a researcher warns that the resistant starch she was recently recommending people consume is actually a bad idea and can make sibo worse: http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/201 ... ou_22.html

I don't think you need to manually close any valve. Broda Barnes explained that peristalsis, gastric acid, and digestive enzymes are all decreased in hypothyroidism. SIBO is simply a byproduct of hypothyroidism. It can be addressed by consuming simple sugars and other foods that a human can easily digest so the bacteria can't ferment it and produce endotoxins that poison us. Antibiotics are a good tool to use vs SIBO because they can knock back an overgrowth and allow you to digest much better so that you can increase your metabolism faster and make it less likely that an overgrowth can recur.

Sea, it seems the article you cited was about insulin resistance, and effects on weight gain from starch, including resistant starch. It had nothing on any effect of resistant starch in the small intestine (SI) and nothing specifically on resistant starch feeding bacteria in the SI.

Resistant starch is, by definition, resistant to digestion in the small intestine, even by SI dwelling bacteria, thus the name "resistant".

The title of the article I linked to was: "High Dose Potato Starch Can Make You Fatter, Insulin Resistant, Feed Vipers in Your UPPER GUT If You Are MISSING Bifidobacteria longum and Akkermansia mucinophila, aka SAD Microbial Fingerprint (Part IV) NSFW "

Resistant starch only means that it is resistant to human digestion, not bacterial digestion. It doesn't matter where the starch is bacteria will eat it when they see it. The fourth paragraph of the article states:

"There is a false 'myth', untruth pseudoscience that potato starch granules will 'carry' pathogenic bacteria away perpetuated on the internet. Few vipers in the uppergut are 'carried away' from what I observe. Potato starch and raw starches ferments furiously and fervently where it lands. Worse, potato starch 'removes' the potent guardians of the uppergut, leaving the uppergut vulnerable to infections, E coli, fungi/candida and other potential commensals-turned-vipers and the vipers themselves."

Ray Peat agrees when he states: “Bacteria thrive on starches that aren’t quickly digested, and the bacteria convert the energy into bulk, and stimulate the intestine. (But at the same time, they are making the toxins that affect the hormones.)” (http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... -starches/)

The article also gives evidence that resistant starch can screw really screw you up:

"Bodinham et al 2014. Authors were shocked to find that 40g HAM-RS2 (raw starch, resistant starch type II) failed to improve blood sugars, hyperinsulinemia, or glycemic control. High dosage raw starches actually worsened many parameters including insulin resistance. Several other human studies reflect these results (previous post: sorry, resistant starch type 2 won't induce fat or weight loss). It appears RS2 can induce changes in metabolism that don't show up in rodent studies."

"Raw high-amylose maize RS2 high dosage 40 grams daily for 12 weeks appeared to make subjects with controlled T2 Diabetes fatter.............and higher inflammatory IL6, 30% more fat in the pancreas ('fatty organs'), higher triglycerides (which corresponds higher insulin and IR, insulin resistance), and higher LDL (dense, atherogenic LDL-particles)."

These findings are consistent with Ray Peat's recommendations to avoid molecules like raw potato starch and other resistant starches due to the damaging byproducts of bacterial fermentation, as well as their ability to persorb into the blood stream and cause all sorts of problems:

“Bacterial endotoxin increases serotonin release from the intestine, and increases its synthesis in the brain (Nolan, et al., 2000) and liver (Bado, 1983). It also stimulates its release from platelets, and reduces the lungs’ ability to destroy it. The formation of serotonin in the intestine is also stimulated by the lactate, propionate and butyrate that are formed by bacteria fermenting fiber and starch, but these bacteria also produce endotoxin. The inflammation-producing effects of lactate, serotonin, and endotoxin are overlapping, additive, and sometimes synergistic, along with histamine, nitric oxide, bradykinin, and the cytokines.” (http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... -starches/)

"Also in the 1960s, Gerhard Volkheimer rediscovered the phenomenon of persorption, which had been demonstrated a century earlier. Starch grains, or other hard particles, can be found in the blood, urine, and other fluids after they have been ingested. The iodine stain for starch, and the characteristic shape of the granules, makes their observation very easy." (http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml)

"Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of starch-grain-blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications of the presence of foreign particles randomly distributed through the tissue." (http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml)

I sort of take issue with your claim that you need to kill bacteria in the small intestine also. Let them starve is more appropriate. The average bacterial life is 20 minutes. Just not providing food for the critters will do the job. Resistant starch happens to be something that will feed the human (in the large intestine) but do nothing for SI yeast and bacteria. Seems like a good idea still.

SIBO is very often more than a byproduct of hypothyroidism. Read about people who have had the appendix removed and then suffer SIBO as a consequence because the ileocaecal valve no longer closes properly. The "manual" valve closing technique is meant for such SIBO sufferers. Not everyone. But it's effective and helps cure SIBO in short order if that was the problem. So information on this is quite in order on a forum like this, in my mind, as there are many people who may read this who have had the appendix removed and also suffer from SIBO.

Any treatment which can fix SIBO is preferable to one with antibiotics as I see it. A person is becoming a home to more and more resistant microbes the more one uses antibiotics. This amounts to putting more and more power in the pathogenic bacteria's hands. I don't know what in terms of "quality of life" features justifies that, but it's certainly something I wouldn't risk on my own body.

You can't starve sibo away because sibo isn't caused by bacteria randomly being in the small intestine. No one would ever talk about sibo if all you had to do was not eat for 20 minutes to get rid it of it. Have you considered that these appendix people you speak of are probably all hypothyroid. Surgery is a big stress and the majority of people without an appendix don't get SIBO.

Ray Peat explains: “The upper part of the small intestine is sterile in healthy people. In the last 40 years, there has been increasing interest in the “contaminated small-bowel syndrome,” or the “small intestine bacterial overgrowth syndrome.” When peristalsis is reduced, for example by hypothyroidism, along with reduced secretion of digestive fluids, bacteria are able to thrive in the upper part of the intestine. Sugars are very quickly absorbed in the upper intestine, so starches and fibers normally provide most of the nourishment for bowel bacteria…Thyroid hormone increases digestive activity, including stomach acid and peristalsis, and both thyroid and progesterone increase the ability of the intestine to absorb sugars quickly; their deficiency can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches.” (http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... tolerance/)

Antibiotics are the fastest way to kill off a sibo infection. I think that with a metabolically supportive high carbohydrate low fiber diet it is possible, but it could take years when an antibiotic can do the job in a week. This is a considerable amount of time for a person to be inadequately digesting food all to avoid antibiotics which have a long history of usage by humans.

"A chemical analysis of the bones of ancient Nubians shows that they were regularly consuming tetracycline, most likely in their beer. The finding is the strongest evidence yet that the art of making antibiotics, which officially dates to the discovery of penicillin in 1928, was common practice nearly 2,000 years ago."

"The ancient Egyptians and Jordanians used beer to treat gum disease and other ailments, Armelagos says, adding that the complex art of fermenting antibiotics was probably widespread in ancient times, and handed down through generations."

"Even the tibia and skull belonging to a 4-year-old were full of tetracycline, suggesting that they were giving high doses to the child to try and cure him of illness, Nelson says." (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 094246.htm)

I think the idea of bacterial resistance to antibiotics is just another misunderstanding about genes. They tested isolated people before and found they had the same antibiotic resistant bacteria, yet had never taken antibiotics. Sure not all bacteria are gonna be killed by 1 type of antibiotic alone, but all bacteria are doing damage to the human, so simply killing some off gives the immune system a better chance at killing the others.

Very appropriate corrections to my case, Sea. I looked at your reference again and see that I too hastily dismissed it as not pertaining to SIBO. And I totally missed the significance of resistant starch NOT resisting bacterial fermentation in the SI, and thus NOT being indicated as any help at all for someone suffering from SIBO. I definitely withdraw all my suggestions on that as of this point, and thank you for staying with this until I read your reference carefully.

On our differences, we are left with

1. Persorption - wouldn't the starches you recommended (potatoes, rice, corn and wheat refined flours) still be risks (this aside from what they are doing, or not doing to a case of SIBO)?

2. Your recommended starches might still be compounding, not relieving, SIBO? Your own references seem to say "compounding": 'Sugars are very quickly absorbed in the upper intestine, so starches and fibers normally provide most of the nourishment for bowel bacteria' (Peat).

3. Antibioics - fast yes. Risks, yes. Lasting effect? Less than for dietary modification (see your own reference, recommending prebiotics such as Akkermansia). Personally, I'd go that route any day before taking antibiotics. That's just me.

if you care to comment further....

 

[Brian]

Brian! Good thought. What is the mouth sensation when the starches are converted?

I think when the salivated starch feels more like a liquid rather than a bunch of chewed granules you're good to swallow. You can probably swallow after you have thoroughly salivated the starch, because the amylase will continue to act on it after you swallow.

I also wonder if the natural endogenous antibiotics in healthy saliva play a role in proper starch digestion by protecting it from bacterial fermentation. If so that's another good reason to thoroughly salivate starch.