Poll About Ayahuasca

[Nestito]

i am eternally grateful for my experiences with her. some have easily been the most spiritually significant ones of my life. it is definitely hard work and not for the faint of heart or everyone. surrender & trust (this can be quite difficult at times) is required for those really magical and healing experiences to take place as she often likes to work on one's anxieties, worries, and fears. straightening through fire, if you will.

integration is extremely important. she can give you a map, but she won't do the walking for you.

i always leave feeling very humbled & graced. the visions, in my experience, i am often unable to interpret; and that's fine as the vast awe that i experience in the mere presence of them regarding the incomprehensible cosmic mystery that is BEING (of which we are all a part) is far more enough than i could ever ask for. :)

 

[Prosper]

her

she

You are personificating a soup. I heard of a local hippie who sung songs to the brew as he was making it. Apparently this drove the evil poltergeists away. Are you as enlightened as he was?

 

[Nestito]

You are personificating a soup. I heard of a local hippie who sung songs to the brew as he was making it. Apparently this drove the evil poltergeists away. Are you as enlightened as he was?

haha, i'm well aware there's really nothing to personify at least from a rational worldview. but i really enjoy doing so just out of tradition.

as far as the local hippie singing songs in order to drive negative entities away, sure, from a rational worldview, such things don't exist. intention does. and that's what's behind ritual, intention.

am i as enlightened as he was? uhm, i can't say. i find more comfort in not knowing. i can't know.

 

[Prosper]

from a rational worldview, such things don't exist. intention does. and that's what's behind ritual, intention

Good response

 

[Dhair]

Well he was a major promoter of them. He understood their use as a tool of control. I very much doubt he ever took any himself. They are meant to be used on the lower castes.

“There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution.”

Huxley was very well informed on pharmacological methods of control because he was right in the thick of it. The dystopia that he outlined in BNW and some of his talks has been coming along very productively since he died. I think his 1962 Berkeley talk is one of the best expositions of the project he was working on.

MK-ULTRA and The Intelligence Community

Aldous Huxley: The Ultimate Revolution

The pharmacological enslavement that he speaks of sounds a hell of a lot like the SSRI crisis to me. We already know that SSRIs cause a person to become unable to form intent, and a significant percentage of the American population is on them. How could psychedelics possibly be effective for this purpose? There is a reason that the deep state's interest in LSD waned. It was a complete failure as a mind control agent.

 

[Makrosky]

Regarding pure DMT, and from the testimonies that I have read and comparing them with my Aya experience, they don't seem to be anything alike. Aya teaches you or shows you important things about life, and DMT it's about having a crazy experience, it seems. I guess it really depends on what you are looking for...

Yes, totally agree.

 

[Makrosky]

About the vomiting... To me it seems it is the somatization of all the things that have intoxicated you.

When you eat something rotten... You'll get diarrhea and vomits. And after that you feel better and you really remind that you won't eat rotten food anymore in your life. It is one of the most powerful aversive conditionings. Even if you see or smell that food that is unrotten you won't eat it.

When you have been intoxicated (and self intoxicated yourself) your "soul"/psyche/heart/mind you name it... the somatic vomits are just that... Expelling from you all that accumulated ***t in a way you will remember for a long time NOT to " eat" it again.

When it is about food is easy to understand.

When it is about massmedia, selfishness, anger, detachment from your self, porn, addictions, excess intelectualization, etc.. it is not that easy to recognize but it is equally bad for you than eating a rotten food. The ayahuasca vomits will ensure you don't forget how intoxicating it is for a long time and you will think twice before "eating" those things the next time you are tempted.

My 2cents

 

[Makrosky]

Now a question : would you guys that have had a positive experience would say it is pro or anti serotonergic in the peat sense of the expression?

I would say it is extremely serotonergic for the first hours and then leaves you in an extremely antiserotonergic state for hours, days, weeks or even months.

Dunno if it is because it depletes serotonin all at once or downregulates something.

 

[Sucrates]

The pharmacological enslavement that he speaks of sounds a hell of a lot like the SSRI crisis to me. We already know that SSRIs cause a person to become unable to form intent, and a significant percentage of the American population is on them. How could psychedelics possibly be effective for this purpose? There is a reason that the deep state's interest in LSD waned. It was a complete failure as a mind control agent.

Yeah, I think drugs like SSRIs are certainly also involved. Psychedelics make people less rational and more open to suggestion, that's why they're such a useful tool for manipulating people. LSD in particular was absolutely necessary for the creation of the counterculture of the late 1960s, the suppression of the anti-war movement and the beginning of the ever evolving culture creation industry.

Psychedelics and LSD in particular have been hugely influential in changing mass culture in the West last 60 to 70 years. I think when you look at what they've achieved in such a short timeframe you could argue that it's even more effective than religion. You could say that it just effectively catalyses a religious state.

The idea that the deep states interest in LSD has waned is false. It's still being promoted, along with other drugs, the same MK ultra organisations in media and academia are still promoting LSD and trying to legalise it. The marketing themes are slightly different now, it's dressed up as medicine rather than spirituality, mostly.

To understand how effective LSD is as a tool of manipulation you only need to look at John Lily using it to train girls to get sexually involved with dolphins.

 

[Sucrates]

Now a question : would you guys that have had a positive experience would say it is pro or anti serotonergic in the peat sense of the expression?

I would say it is extremely serotonergic for the first hours and then leaves you in an extremely antiserotonergic state for hours, days, weeks or even months.

Dunno if it is because it depletes serotonin all at once or downregulates something.

It's extremely serotonergic. Hence the vomiting and diarrhea. There is a high for about 24hrs after it has worn off though. Reminded me of IF+keto.

 

[jaa]

We trip on DMT every time we dream. It seems that the 15 minute DMT smoke hit would be better than drinking the "tea," poisoning yourself and vomiting for hours and trip for much longer like weirdos who pay losers in the jungles of South America for that "spiritual" experience.

How judgemental! Sounds like a "spiritual trip" could do you well.

Many people reflect on these experiences as positively life changing. Not so with dreams.

 

[Collden]

Now a question : would you guys that have had a positive experience would say it is pro or anti serotonergic in the peat sense of the expression?

I would say it is extremely serotonergic for the first hours and then leaves you in an extremely antiserotonergic state for hours, days, weeks or even months.

Dunno if it is because it depletes serotonin all at once or downregulates something.

I think the effects of ayahuasca depends on the psyche of the individual and where he is on his own particular path of spiritual development. Perhaps you were a highly dopaminergic and materialistic person living for career advancement and attaining money/status/casual sex and superficial entertainment, and the experience makes you perceive your old pursuits as meaningless, makes you question your values and leaves you completely lost as to the purpose of your life. In this case the aftermath might be characterised by a lack of motivation and being more content to not achieve as much (serotonergic state), at least until you integrate the experience and figure out how to go on from there and become highly driven to realise your new purpose in life (dopaminergic state).

Or perhaps you were already depressed with no motivation or direction, lost as to what you are supposed to do with your life, and the experience helps you see more clearly your new purpose and achieve new values, in which case it will engender a dopaminergic state.

 

[Collden]

I think the acute drug effects themselves are too complex to be reduced to either dopaminergic or serotonergic, like for instance it tends to make people highly emotional and unlocks their subconscious emotional life, is this a serotonergic or dopaminergic effect? Its like meditation, does it increase dopamine or serotonin? It can act on both systems in different ways depending on your individual psyche.

 

[Makrosky]

I think the acute drug effects themselves are too complex to be reduced to either dopaminergic or serotonergic, like for instance it tends to make people highly emotional and unlocks their subconscious emotional life, is this a serotonergic or dopaminergic effect? Its like meditation, does it increase dopamine or serotonin? It can act on both systems in different ways depending on your individual psyche.

Yes of course I totally agree with that. The "is it serotonergic or antiserotonergic" should be understood in the context of this forum where we always oversimplify the serotonin thing. It is just a common "code" we use to judge if a substance/thing is good or bad. But of course it is all much more complex...hell...there are milions of people helped by serotonergic substances. Because it is much more complex than that.

 

[Makrosky]

It's extremely serotonergic. Hence the vomiting and diarrhea. There is a high for about 24hrs after it has worn off though. Reminded me of IF+keto.

Yes but the vomiting and diarrhea last a few hours maximum and the good effects (for those who got good effects) can last days or weeks or even months. That's why I think it is super serotonergic in the beginning and antiserrotonergic in the long run. You didn't have a good experience with it but I did and to me it feels very antiserotonergic. And super antistress. Who knows, the "serotonergic/antiserotonergic" is just labels we use for convenience.

 

[vulture]

I would totally advise at it for most of the people within most of the circumstances. Better learn to have lucid dreams if you have fun imagining weird stuff. There's lot of people who makes a living out of it and give that stuff a "spiritual" meaning, etc. It's like getting into a dangerous imaginary amusement park, extremely high and drunk.
If you still are willing to drink that stuff, be sure to be with a strong enough and trust worthy person by your side, someone you would rely your life to, because you could potentially do REALLY stupid shits and hurt yourself.

And I'm not reading scientific studies or analyzing it's chemical compounds and projecting stuff, I've been there, done that. Drugs are usually a way to stand lives that aren't worth living from your own perspective.

 

[Nestito]

Yes but the vomiting and diarrhea last a few hours maximum and the good effects (for those who got good effects) can last days or weeks or even months. That's why I think it is super serotonergic in the beginning and antiserrotonergic in the long run. You didn't have a good experience with it but I did and to me it feels very antiserotonergic. And super antistress. Who knows, the "serotonergic/antiserotonergic" is just labels we use for convenience.

If I recall correctly I remember reading in the The Cosmic Serpent by Jeremy Narby (a stellar read btw, if you're interested in the subject, presents a really thought provoking hypothesis) that members of a tribe in the amazon would eat high serotonin containing foods such as bananas to what seemed to counteract the potential serotonin lowering effects of the aya. It probably wasn't phrased exactly that way, but I do remember it standing out and making the connection at the time due to having read Peat. If that were the case, they probably just weren't aware that it might have potentially been a good thing.

With all psychs, I've noticed the afterglow feels really nice, and have pondered if it's due to lowered serotonin. Just my two cents.

 

[Nestito]

oh, and also here are two interesting excerpts i'd like to share that i love on the subject.

READ THIS.

this one is from walter n. panhke, which explains why so many people walk away from their experiences with highly differing opinions on what has happened. it's the fifth experience (the psychedelic mystical experience) which holds the baby in the bathwater.

"In order to discuss these questions in perspective, the psychological phenomena which can occur when LSD is administered to human beings needs to be kept in mind. Five kinds of potential psychedelic experiences have been described in detail with examples elsewhere. (2,3) Let me briefly review these.

First is the psychotic psychedelic experience characterized by the intense negative experience of fear to the point of panic, paranoid delusions of suspicion or grandeur, total confusion, impairment of abstract reasoning, remorse, depression, isolation, and/or somatic discomfort; all of these can be of very powerful magnitude.

Second is the pschodynamic psychedelic experience characterized by a dramatic emergence into consciousness of material that has previously been unconscious or preconscious. Abreaction and catharsis are elements of what subjectively is experienced as an actual reliving of incidents from the past or a symbolic portrayal of important conflicts.

Third is the cognitive psychedelic experience, characterized by astonishing lucid thought. Problems can be seen from a novel perspective, and the inner relationships of many levels or dimensions can be seen all at once. The creative experience may have something in common with this kind of psychedelic experience, but such a possibility must await the results of future investigation.

Fourth is the aesthetic psychedelic experience, characterized by a change and intensification of all sensory modalities. Fascinating changes in sensations and perception can occur: synesthesia in which sounds can be "seen," objects such as flowers or stones that appear to pulsate and become "alive," ordinary things that seem imbued with great beauty, music that takes on an incredible emotional power, and visions of beautiful colors, intricate geometric patterns, architectural forms, landscapes, and almost anything imaginable.

The fifth and last type of psychedelic experience may ultimately prove to be the most valuable and is the focus in regard to treatment of the dying patient. This experience has been called by various names: psychedelic-peak; cosmic, transcendental, or mystical. Nine universal psychological characteristics were derived from a study of the literature of spontaneous mystical experience reported throughout world history from almost all cultures and religions. When subjected to a scientific experiment, these characteristics proved to be identical for spontaneous and psychedelic mystical experiences. (4,5)

Unity is a sense of cosmic oneness achieved through positive ego transcendence. Although the usual sense of identity, or ego, fades away, consciousness and memory are not lost; instead, the person becomes very much aware of being part of a dimension much vaster and greater than himself. In addition to the route of the "inner world" where external sense impressions are left behind, unity can also be experienced through the external world, so that a person reports that he feels a part of everything that is (for example, objects, other people, or the universe), or more simply, that "all is One."

2. Transcendence of Time and Space means that the subject feels beyond past, present, and future, and beyond ordinary three-dimension space in a realm of eternity or infinity.

3. Deeply Felt Positive Mood contains the elements of joy, blessedness, peace and love to an overwhelming degree of intensity, often accompanied by tears.

4. Sense of Sacredness is a nonrational, intuitive, hushed, palpitant response of awe and wonder in the presence of inspiring Reality. The main elements are awe, humility, and reverence, but the terms of traditional theology or religion need not necessarily be used in the description.

The Noetic Quality, as named by William James, (6) is a feeling of insight or illumination that, on an intuitive, nonrational level and with a tremendous force of certainty, subjectively has the status of Ultimate Reality. This knowledge is not an increase of facts but is a gain in psychological, philosophical, or theological insight.

Paradoxicality refers to the logical contradictions that become apparent if descriptions are strictly analyzed. A person may realize that he is experiencing, for example, an "identity of opposites," yet it seems to make sense at the time, and also afterwards.

7. Alleged ineffability means that the experience is felt to be beyond words, non-verbal, and impossible to describe; yet most persons who insist on the ineffability do in fact make elaborate attempts to communicate the experience.

8. Transiency means that the psychedelic peak does not last in its full intensity, but instead passes into an afterglow and remains only as a memory.

9. Persisting Positive Changes in Attitudes and Behavior are toward self, others, life, and the experience itself.

All the research I have done with psychedelic drugs for the past six years supports the hypothesis that the kind of experience is strongly dependent upon the necessary drug dosage, but only as a trigger or facilitating agent, and upon the crucial extra-drug variables of set and setting. Psychological set refers to factors within the subject, such as personality, life history, expectation, preparation, mood prior to the session, and, perhaps most important of all the ability to trust, to let go, and to be open to whatever comes. The setting refers to factors outside the individual, such as the physical environment in which the drug is taken, the psychological and emotional atmosphere to which the subject is exposed, how he is treated by those around him, and what the experimenter expects the drug reaction will be.

Elements of all these kinds of psychedelic experiences may appear in any one psychedelic session, but the psychedelic mystical experience is the most rare, being achieved by only 25 to 50 per cent of subjects, even under the most optimal conditions of set and setting. The more control that is gained over these variables, the more predictable is the chance of obtaining the psychedelic mystical experience, but it is by no means automatic. Yet when such an event is experienced and then adequately integrated, it can provide the fulcrum for transformations of attitude and behavior."

and here's roland griffiths from john hopkins university on one of the implications of his work with psilocybin.

"…but the final implication and the one that's most interesting to me is this. the fact that psilocybin, under supportive conditions, can occasion most people studied mystical type experiences, virtually identical to those that occur naturally, suggests that such experiences are biologically normal.

and it raises the question: why are we wired to have these salient, felt to be sacred experiences of encountering ultimate reality of the interconnectedness of all people and all things? experiences that very arguably provide the very basis of our ethical and our moral codes common to all the world's religions.

well, i think there's something about the mystical experience that relates intimately to the very nature of consciousness. just reflect on the mysterious truth that if you direct your attention inward you become aware that you're aware. an indisputable and profound inner knowing arises that we can all access individually and, perhaps, collectively.

i think this inner knowing is at the core of our humanity. we recognize that at some deep level we're all in this together. and there's an impulse that arises for mutual caretaking.

i further believe that investigation of this inner knowing through contempletative and other spiritual practices can give rise to profound worldview shifts of an uplifiting kind. an awakening to a sense of freedom, peace, joy, and gratitude that most people simply find unimaginable.

excitingly, exploration of the psilocybin occasioned mystical experience seems to provide a modeled system for rigorous and prospective investigation of these awakening experiences. further research will surely reveal underlying biological mechanisms of action. will likely result in an array of therapeutic applications.

and more importantly, because such experiences are foundationally related to our moral and ethical understandings, furher research may ultimately prove to be crucial to the very survival of our species."

cheers!

 

[Sucrates]

If I recall correctly I remember reading in the The Cosmic Serpent by Jeremy Narby (a stellar read btw, if you're interested in the subject, presents a really thought provoking hypothesis) that members of a tribe in the amazon would eat high serotonin containing foods such as bananas to what seemed to counteract the potential serotonin lowering effects of the aya. It probably wasn't phrased exactly that way, but I do remember it standing out and making the connection at the time due to having read Peat. If that were the case, they probably just weren't aware that it might have potentially been a good thing.

With all psychs, I've noticed the afterglow feels really nice, and have pondered if it's due to lowered serotonin. Just my two cents.

You have to eat a low tryptophan diet to avoid serotonin syndrome. Caapi is a MAOI inhibitor. His other book "Intelligence in Nature" is interesting too, slightly more reality based.

 

[Stilgar]

I would be curious to know what Ray thinks about Ayahuasca. Has anyone ever asked him?