Please Help, Severe Muscle Wasting

Kunstruct

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Sep 6, 2018
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Agree, they did another test 2 weeks after and then everything was in range and they said it’s not serious enough to do something about it and might be high stress related..

It is does not really work like that, I was in a period massively highly stressed and my test did not drop to the ground and the next 2 weeks went back.
While this is supposedly anecdotal evidence, it is also in blood tests.
And I believe this is how it should work, one's testoterone should not drop to the ground because he had a period of 3 days of stress and then it should be fine to come back up.


On the other hand.
My testosterone now is very low and I have been not been stressed for long periods and it never went back up.
 
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Bart1

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It is does not really work like that, I was in a period massively highly stressed and my test did not drop to the ground and the next 2 weeks went back.
While this is supposedly anecdotal evidence, it is also in blood tests.
And I believe this is how it should work, one's testoterone should not drop to the ground because he had a period of 3 days of stress and then it should be fine to come back up.


On the other hand.
My testosterone now is very low and I have been not been stressed for long periods and it never went back up.
Have you taken a look at the attached pdf for 2018, there testosterone was also not great but not so low
 

Kunstruct

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Do you know why? Because the meme creams prescribed for hypogonadism (Androgel) will barely raise your test to 400, maybe 500 if your lucky. That’s it. So yeah, the dr doesn’t think it’s worth it to risk iatrogenic testicular atrophy in exchange for slightly higher T levels.

Did an endocrinologist told you that?
Where I am I have been told unless I am very old (60yr+ I have been told) or sick of some serious problem (example was HIV or physical handicap I will not prescribed testosterone injections, they do not even use creams there for example.
 

Kunstruct

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Have you taken a look at the attached pdf for 2018, there testosterone was also not great but not so low
I am talking about something else not weather you re results were better or not. I have seen it 467ng/dl in your PDF, yes it is much higher, 66% higher from the 274ng/dl before. That is a big jump.
I am saying that I do not believe it is normal for someone under stress to drop to such low testosterone, I was also sharing my experience at the same time.
 
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Bart1

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I am talking about something else not weather you re results were better or not. I have seen it 467ng/dl in your PDF, yes it is much higher, 66% higher from the 274ng/dl before. That is a big jump.
I am saying that I do not believe it is normal for someone under stress to drop to such low testosterone, I was also sharing my experience at the same time.
Ah ok. The one where testosterone was low was also the moment when I took progesterone/DHEA. Could that somehow mess with testosterone?

I was also thinking I might be very low in vitamin A. Since my cholesterol is high and testosterone very low. Also vitamin A is involved in iron metabolism and since I have iron overload it might deplete vitamin A quickly. Also progesterone requires vitamin A
 

Kunstruct

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The one where testosterone was low was also the moment when I took progesterone/DHEA. Could that somehow mess with testosterone?
People here will tell you that is not possible that take those and have actually improved their erection, strength. muscles etc.
Others will tell you that is possible.
I personally have not managed to raise my Testosterone with pregnenolone, dhea, androsterone in blood tests, it kept dropping they did not stop it. Some even speculate it helped it drop, but that is still speculation.
DHEA proves and proved to me highly estrogenic in action pretty fast.
Pregnenolone in low doses does nothing for me at all, in higher doses 50mg-100mg I feel it calming and lowering estradiol symptoms. But only acutely, several hours later I am back where I was. This is what I am trying for the last around 10 days or a bit more.
 

paymanz

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if I consume a lot of sugar, I immediately feel more muscle weakness.
if i crave sugar and eat it i feel good, otherwise it doesnt give me good results.

now , do you eat sugar based on cravings?!
 
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Bart1

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if i crave sugar and eat it i feel good, otherwise it doesnt give me good results.

now , do you eat sugar based on cravings?!
No not really.

every time I eat a lot of sugar I feel pain shoots from, i think, the adrenals.
 

meatbag

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Dear members,

I’ve been roaming this forum since 2018, since I discovered the work of Peat after experiencing a health crisis extreme tiredness, dizziness(hypothyroid; low temps and low pulse).

Since then I tried a lot of things to get things better snd had a lot of testing done.

Unfortunately, things got worse, way worse.

I’m in a state of muscle wasting. This is going on for about 1,5 years. Since a year walking became more difficult. As the wasting continued, skeletal muscles became softer I started to have muscle weakness etc. I panicked and went to a neurologist, who did a brain and spine mri checking for things like MS. nothing out of the ordinary. Also went to a endocrinologist who found low testosterone and slightly elevated CK levels.
But after a second blood draw, no elevated CK anymore and testosterone was low but in range.

I have a lot of additional information I can provide but I hope someknowledgeably people could provide some suggestions about how to move forward.

i’m 38 years old. I have hemochromatosis discovered about 15 years ago. I have chronically high serum iron and saturation. I have been donating blood to keep ferritin low. But since I understand more of the disease, I try to donate now 5 times a year.

I am pre diabetic, not really overweight. I have a buffalo hump and my neck is tilting forward more snd more.

if I consume a lot of sugar, I immediately feel more muscle weakness.

I’m hypothyroid as well. I take thyroid but have difficulty raising metabolism because I keep running into a stress response and the wasting starts again.

A lot of pro metabolic things excagerate the situation. Simply adding more sugar to meals and b vitamins does not really work.

At this point I am almost not able to walk. My skeletal muscles have atrophied so much. I’m desperate at this point.

some things I think could be the cause

hemochromatosis->hypothyroidism->insulin resistance.

some things I found:
Hypothyroid myopathy typically manifests as polymyositis-like myopathy with proximal muscle weakness and an increased creatine kinase level.

Hyperglycemia induces skeletal muscle atrophy via a WWP1/KLF15 axis.
Hyperglycemia induces skeletal muscle atrophy via a WWP1/KLF15 axis. - PubMed - NCBI



Structural and functional modifications occur in skeletal muscle during aging. These defects lead to impairment in muscle strength, contractile capacity and performance. ... Therefore in a more general concept, insulin resistance found in many clinical settings, could be considered as a contributor to muscle wasting.




Insulin resistance accelerates muscle protein degradation: Activation of the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway by defects in muscle cell signaling. - PubMed - NCBI
Thus, insulin resistance causes muscle wasting by mechanisms that involve suppression of PI3K/Akt signaling leading to activation of caspase-3 and the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway causing muscle protein degradation.


Any help suggestion highly appreciated; I’m desperate, I live in hell atm

How long have you been taking thyroxine?

Have you measured your metabolic rate with temp and pulse?
Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Temperature and Pulse Basics & Monthly Log – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

You said vitamin d was low but its top of the range on the bloods you posted?
 
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Bart1

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How long have you been taking thyroxine?

Have you measured your metabolic rate with temp and pulse?
Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Temperature and Pulse Basics & Monthly Log – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

You said vitamin d was low but its top of the range on the bloods you posted?
I'm taking it for about 2-3 months now. I had a period where I got my metabolism up and felt good and my neck started to straighten again, but if I would skip one meal I would immediately get a stress response, and unfortunately life sometimes get in the way and a busy weekend was enough to start the chain reaction. Now thyroid is not optimal heart rate is still low highest in the day is 70ish, wake up 55-60. Temp during the day rises from 36.6 to about 37

Yes, recently I did a test again, now that it's winter. it was 25-hydroxy-vitamine D: 48.5 nmol/l

Also, the last year I have been very sedentary because of the tiredness and weakness, combining with high cortisol/adrenaline, this might also cause this atrophy ?

According this study it could

Inactivity Amplifies the Catabolic Response of Skeletal Muscle to Cortisol
Inactivity Amplifies the Catabolic Response of Skeletal Muscle to Cortisol *
 
Last edited:

meatbag

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I'm taking it for about 2-3 months now. I had a period where I got my metabolism up and felt good and my neck started to straighten again, but if I would skip one meal I would immediately get a stress response, and unfortunately life sometimes get in the way and a busy weekend was enough to start the chain reaction. Now thyroid is not optimal heart rate is still low highest in the day is 70ish, wake up 55-60. Temp during the day rises from 36.6 to about 37

Yes, recently I did a test again, now that it's winter. it was 25-hydroxy-vitamine D: 48.5 nmol/l

Also, the last year I have been very sedentary because of the tiredness and weakness, combining with high cortisol/adrenaline, this might also cause this atrophy ?

According this study it could

Inactivity Amplifies the Catabolic Response of Skeletal Muscle to Cortisol
Inactivity Amplifies the Catabolic Response of Skeletal Muscle to Cortisol *
It's possible you are using too much T4 which is converting to Reverse T3 and need a combination product like desiccated or T3.
>Thyroid Insufficiency. Is Thyroxine the Only Valuable Drug? – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Given that your cholesterol is high, it would indicate you don't have T3 converting the cholesterol into youth steroids
>The Cholesterol and Thyroid Connection – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
This interview with Ray Peat is helpful for understanding his perspective on the thyroid;

"HD2: And what about, Dr Peat, how some people if they supplement with T4 thyroxine, they will have those symptoms like our caller mentioned where their muscles are weak and their heart’s
pounding, and their pulse is high and isn’t that because if they are already low thyroid and they take the T4 then are actually stimulating the adrenalin because they are not converting it?

RP: Yeah. When people have suffered for a long time with a low thyroid they are likely to have extremely high adrenalin and cortisol levels and that causes them to turn T4 into reverse T3 blocking the actual active T3 hormone and then if they accumulate more and more T4 that will interfere competitively with the little bit of T3 that they do have, so they can exaggerate the state of their hypothyroidism if they’re in that extreme stressed state.

HD1: Would you say that T4 perhaps is maybe only 10% as active as the active T3 hormone?

RP: It really varies. In the 1940s, when they first synthesized it, they tested it on male medical students and it was exactly as effective as Armour natural thyroid and that’s because young men, 20-22 years old, have very good livers that can perfectly convert it, but even at the same age women are more likely to have problems with plain thyroxine.

HD1: So when you talk about T4 being weakly active, how do you interpret that or how do you see T3 versus T4 in terms of orchestrating metabolic events?

RP: Well the standard textbook idea is that T3 is 4 times more powerful than T4 but really if your liver is good you can get 100% of the benefit out of T4 and if you are a woman under stress with high oestrogen your liver isn’t going to convert any of it to the right active hormone, and the more you take – I’ve known of one woman who was hospitalized and got more and more hypothyroid the higher they raised her thyroxine dose - and as soon as they gave her T3 she came right out of the myxedema coma, but I have seen people in less extreme states who got more and more depressed or psychotic or whatever when they increased their thyroxine dose.

HD2: I have one more question for the caller. Do you know if this lady you’re speaking about was taking a T3/T4 combination supplement or were they taking just T4 or just T3? Are you aware of that?

Caller: Yeah, well, originally she was taking an Armour supplement and when she took the supplemental iodine that caused the problem and since then she has tried different T4/T3 combo products, as well as a couple of different, pure T3 supplements. So I think it’s something to do with this adrenalin or sensitivity to adrenalin that Dr Peat was talking about, where if I understand him correctly, the thyroid sensitizes the tissues to the already high, the already existing adrenalin.

HD2: But that should only last a couple of days and then it should balance out.

RP: Well, sometimes it lasts for a couple of weeks. If you’re really extreme, you have to use little bits of supplements and be very careful about your intake of protein, sugar, calcium, everything that is counter to the stress.

Caller: So when you are in a situation like that she was using very small specks of T3, under 1 mcg sometimes. Is the thing to do to hold that very low dose for a couple of weeks, then increase it in very, very small increments as the adrenalin hopefully comes down?

RP: Yeah. I’ve known people for a week or two who would stay with 1mcg doses of T3, but you have to make sure your whole diet is very good, having hormone tests, and a vitamin D blood test is helpful because magnesium and calcium work together and vitamin D regulates them.

HD2: Yeah and making sure that she’s getting plenty of carbohydrates like in the form of fruit juices because that’s like Dr Peat is saying - making sure nutritionally that she is getting at least 75g of protein and - I don’t know the weight and nutritional needs –but at least 150 grams of more sugars and good fats."
-Iodine, Supplement Reactions, Hormones And More - KMUD, 2016-02-19
 

Nemo

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I am pre diabetic, not really overweight. I have a buffalo hump and my neck is tilting forward more snd more.

if I consume a lot of sugar, I immediately feel more muscle weakness.

I’m hypothyroid as well. I take thyroid but have difficulty raising metabolism because I keep running into a stress response and the wasting starts again.

Bart, lots of good advice in this thread about possible problems with SIBO and T4.

I would try T3 with meals during the day, without T4. Maybe a T3/T4 combo product only at bedtime. Try using thyroid only with food so that it absorbs more gradually and mimics natural secretion instead of blasting you into an adrenaline crisis. Pull back, pull back. Even though you're in great physical distress, start small, with low doses. Only raise the dose after two weeks if you still have symptoms.

Also, I would take every other pro-metabolic food and supplement more slowly and gently. It seems like a supplement/thyroid management problem. Like you're basically doing the right metabolic stuff but you're too hypothyroid to handle your calcium and magnesium and sugar and B vitamin (and possibly aspirin and whatever) intake, so you have to pull back and rebuild slowly and gently. As you start to build your thyroid levels you will be able to build your magnesium, calcium, etc. levels and vice versa. That will help your digestion and everything else.

Are you getting gelatin daily? That should help the inflammation that is likely contributing to your problems.

Are you getting any sun? Muscle weakness should ease if you get more sun. I've never found Vit D supplements worked as well as simple sunlight. Seems to work best with a combo of morning sunlight and midday sunlight on as much bare skin as possible. A sunset walk helps too.

Are you getting any rest or are you continuing to try to push yourself through an extremely high-stress life? How is your sleep?

Are you caring for yourself the way you would care for a loved one? I have a strong feeling you need some basic TLC.
 
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Bart1

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Thank you all for the suggestions!

I definitely have a conversion problem. I forgot to mention that I do use a combination product for thyroid (cynoplus) at dinner. I take 1/4 now. And I use some cynomel during the day. The cynomel is difficult to dose, too much gives me adrenaline and stress response.

I have an iron overload problem and experience liver and gut problems. I have severe endotoxin responses and herx reaction if I use some antibacterial stuff. Very very fatigued and heavy.

@Nemo
I hope you are right with your analysis, it does seem that way. I need to have more patience and be more kind to myself and don't worry too much about these extreme symptoms. I jump too quickly on too many supplements. So my focus is now on getting ADKE, calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium; some B complex, eat liver 1-2 per week, eat some shrimp (I get sick from oysters every time!!) and very slowly build up thyroid (multidose t3 in smaller amounts every couple of hours).

The winter is coming to an end here so I hope to get plenty of sunshine on my balcony. I am not very mobile atm due to the muscle loss and weakness. I'm not working atm and probably gonna lose my job if this doesn't reverse soon. Doctors can't find anything so I can't say to my employer that I'm sick. They are patient but I don't know for how long...
 

Kingpinguin

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Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
586
Dear members,

I’ve been roaming this forum since 2018, since I discovered the work of Peat after experiencing a health crisis extreme tiredness, dizziness(hypothyroid; low temps and low pulse).

Since then I tried a lot of things to get things better snd had a lot of testing done.

Unfortunately, things got worse, way worse.

I’m in a state of muscle wasting. This is going on for about 1,5 years. Since a year walking became more difficult. As the wasting continued, skeletal muscles became softer I started to have muscle weakness etc. I panicked and went to a neurologist, who did a brain and spine mri checking for things like MS. nothing out of the ordinary. Also went to a endocrinologist who found low testosterone and slightly elevated CK levels.
But after a second blood draw, no elevated CK anymore and testosterone was low but in range.

I have a lot of additional information I can provide but I hope someknowledgeably people could provide some suggestions about how to move forward.

i’m 38 years old. I have hemochromatosis discovered about 15 years ago. I have chronically high serum iron and saturation. I have been donating blood to keep ferritin low. But since I understand more of the disease, I try to donate now 5 times a year.

I am pre diabetic, not really overweight. I have a buffalo hump and my neck is tilting forward more snd more.

if I consume a lot of sugar, I immediately feel more muscle weakness.

I’m hypothyroid as well. I take thyroid but have difficulty raising metabolism because I keep running into a stress response and the wasting starts again.

A lot of pro metabolic things excagerate the situation. Simply adding more sugar to meals and b vitamins does not really work.

At this point I am almost not able to walk. My skeletal muscles have atrophied so much. I’m desperate at this point.

some things I think could be the cause

hemochromatosis->hypothyroidism->insulin resistance.

some things I found:
Hypothyroid myopathy typically manifests as polymyositis-like myopathy with proximal muscle weakness and an increased creatine kinase level.

Hyperglycemia induces skeletal muscle atrophy via a WWP1/KLF15 axis.
Hyperglycemia induces skeletal muscle atrophy via a WWP1/KLF15 axis. - PubMed - NCBI



Structural and functional modifications occur in skeletal muscle during aging. These defects lead to impairment in muscle strength, contractile capacity and performance. ... Therefore in a more general concept, insulin resistance found in many clinical settings, could be considered as a contributor to muscle wasting.




Insulin resistance accelerates muscle protein degradation: Activation of the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway by defects in muscle cell signaling. - PubMed - NCBI
Thus, insulin resistance causes muscle wasting by mechanisms that involve suppression of PI3K/Akt signaling leading to activation of caspase-3 and the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway causing muscle protein degradation.


Any help suggestion highly appreciated; I’m desperate, I live in hell atm

What was your latest iron panel results? And whats your haemoglobin like.
 
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Bart1

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Latest was:
Haemoglobin 10 (range 8.4-10.9); serum Iron 32 (range 14-28); Saturation 65 (range 20-60); Ferritin 45. This was just before I donated blood and exactly 2 months after a previous blood donation.
 
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Bart1

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Do you drink lots of liquid?
I don't know what is too much but I do feel I can't really tolerate liquids very well. I think I drink about 2-3 liters liquid per day. Mainly milk and OJ and magnesium bicarbonate water. I feel like if I drink plain water it does not sit well and even can make me dizzy, maybe more sodium..
 

LLight

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I don't know what is too much but I do feel I can't really tolerate liquids very well. I think I drink about 2-3 liters liquid per day. Mainly milk and OJ and magnesium bicarbonate water. I feel like if I drink plain water it does not sit well and even can make me dizzy, maybe more sodium..

Ok. That may be too much. You should try to reduce your fluid intake in order to see if it helps further.

My reasoning (which is highly hypothetical):
  1. the enzyme CYP11A1, also called CYP450scc, is in charge of converting cholesterol: "P450scc is a mitochondrial enzyme that catalyzes conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone. This is the first reaction in the process of steroidogenesis in all mammalian tissues that specialize in the production of various steroid hormones. " (wikipedia)
  2. It seems like the transcription factor NFAT5 could have a link with this enzyme, RNA-Seq analysis of high NaCl-induced gene expression:
    • "Categories of NFAT5 Target Genes Upregulated after Adaptation to High NaCl, but Not after as Little as 24 h of High NaCl.
    • Steroid hormones. Cyp11a1 protein localizes to the mitochondrial inner membrane and catalyzes the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone, the first and rate-limiting step in the synthesis of the steroid hormones."
  3. NFAT5 is downregulated by hypotonicity, which I think could be caused by drinking too much. Note that while it seems like NFAT5 upregulates this enzyme, it could be false to think that by downregulating NFAT5, you would necessarily downregulate its target, the enzyme CYP11A1. Additionally, this is proven in one kind of cell.
 

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