Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not????

reikiriki

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I've been anemic most of my life, as a child at age 9 is my first memory. I was a picky eater due to a very stressful living situation.

I'm a 46 yr old woman, and have had six children. My hematocrit, hemoglobin, etc. are all normal range, normal menstruation.

For the last 2 years I've been receiving Venofer via IV every couple of months. When my ferritin is about 200 I have so much energy and my body seems to love it. It was at 4 when I started infusions. It seems like my ferritin is falling faster and faster.

Recently, my ferritin fell from 200+ to 61 in only 6 weeks. Why? I don't know, my doctor has no clue nor does he seem to care why. No excess bleeding, no Celiac disease, etc. Last year my ferritin was 243 and it took 5 months to fall to 10.

It used to be I felt very tired when it got below 50 but it seems to be getting worse. Now at 61 I am so exhausted I can barely drive a car. I am sleeping half the day. I've also been experiencing periodic heart arrythmia or palpatations, low pulse, lower end of blood pressure.

I read on Raypeat.com that excess iron can be troublesome, so now I am confused as to whether I should go in and get more infusions or not! At this rate, I will need 300mg via IV every two weeks.

I feel lost and frustrated! :(

Riki
 

4peatssake

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

reikiriki said:
I've been anemic most of my life, as a child at age 9 is my first memory. I was a picky eater due to a very stressful living situation.

I'm a 46 yr old woman, and have had six children. My hematocrit, hemoglobin, etc. are all normal range, normal menstruation.

For the last 2 years I've been receiving Venofer via IV every couple of months. When my ferritin is about 200 I have so much energy and my body seems to love it. It was at 4 when I started infusions. It seems like my ferritin is falling faster and faster.

Recently, my ferritin fell from 200+ to 61 in only 6 weeks. Why? I don't know, my doctor has no clue nor does he seem to care why. No excess bleeding, no Celiac disease, etc. Last year my ferritin was 243 and it took 5 months to fall to 10.

It used to be I felt very tired when it got below 50 but it seems to be getting worse. Now at 61 I am so exhausted I can barely drive a car. I am sleeping half the day. I've also been experiencing periodic heart arrythmia or palpatations, low pulse, lower end of blood pressure.

I read on Raypeat.com that excess iron can be troublesome, so now I am confused as to whether I should go in and get more infusions or not! At this rate, I will need 300mg via IV every two weeks.

I feel lost and frustrated! :(

Riki
:welcome2 to the forum Riki

I'm not qualified to advise you in any way about treatment but would suggest reading (again, perhaps) Ray Peat's article on Iron's Dangers

Ray Peat said:
Anemia in women is caused most often by a thyroid deficiency (as discussed in the chapter on thyroid), or by various nutritional deficiencies. Estrogen (even in animals that don't menstruate) causes dilution of the blood, so that it is normal for females to have lower hemoglobin than males. Q. What should I do if my doctor tells me I'm anemic? Is there any situation in which a person needs to take iron supplements?

Iron deficiency anemia does exist, in laboratory situations and in some cases of chronic bleeding, but I believe it should be the last-suspected cause of anemia, instead of the first. It should be considered as a possible cause of anemia only when very specific blood tests show an abnormally low degree of iron saturation of certain proteins. Usually, physicians consider the amount of hemoglobin or of red cells in the blood as the primary indicator of a need for iron, but that just isn't biologically reasonable.

If a large amount of blood is lost in surgery, a temporary anemia might be produced, but even then it would be best to know whether the iron stores are really depleted before deciding whether an iron supplement would be reasonable. Liver (or even a water extract of wheat germ) can supply as much iron as would be given as a pill, and is safer.

Are you hypothyroid or aware of having thyroid deficiency? Are you aware of having high levels of estrogen? These are important factors to consider.

Ray Peat points out the flaws in how laboratory tests for iron levels are conducted, making it difficult to fully understand whether there is a true deficiency. He mentions the need for specific blood tests to show the degree of iron saturation of certain proteins. Perhaps you could request this type of blood test?

You need to also be careful when testing thyroid as a lot of testing of thyroid functioning is equally ineffective. I know how frustrating all this is but there are effective means for testing thyroid - temperature, pulse and the Achilles Tendon Reflux Tests (good ole old school methods) work extremely well.

I wish I could be of more help to you. I am sure others here may have additional information that may help you.

Please keep us posted how things go.

Also, what is your diet like? Have you eliminated all PUFAs and are eating foods that promote a high metabolic rate?
 
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reikiriki

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Yes I am hypothyroid and take Armour for it. My TSH is great at .80 and I monitor my dosage with my temp and pulse.
I also take Mexican Yam to balance progesterone/estrogen. I will look through my lab results to see if I have been tested for any of those specific blood tests.
I can't imagine how tired I am going to be if I elect NOT to have an infusion. I don't know what to do yet. Thank you for your reply!!
I will look up PUFAs and foods that promote a high metabolic rate.
Thank you again.
Riki
 

Rayser

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

The TSH doesn't say much about your thyroid activity. The symptoms you describe "periodic heart arrythmia or palpatations, low pulse, lower end of blood pressure" suggest hypothyroidism. I think you are blocking your thyroid gland. Probably through supplements and food. Iron and other heavy metals can oppose thyroid activity, too and promote inflammation.

I suppose since you say you are using "yam" you mean some pure form? That would mean you are supplementing phytoestrogen. The wild yam is used to extract diosgenin, a steroid sapogenin. The extracted diosgenin is used for the synthesis of cortisone, pregnenolone, progesterone. But the unmodified steroid has strong estrogenic activity.
Estrogen will block your thyroid activity AND cause anemia. Maybe you want to stop using any supplements apart from thyroid and see how you feel?

Have you thought about supplementing progest-e-complex?
Are you using coconut oil? Sometimes a week of 2 to 3 table spoons of refined coconut oil a day can make a big difference regarding fatigue. Are you avoiding polyunsaturated fatty acids? Are you drinking milk/orange juice? Are you using enough salt and sugar? It is possible that a lack of sugar and protein is causing the fatigue. Coffee should help, too if you drink it with milk and sugar. You might want to think about adding potatoes to your diet, too.

Usually a high ferritin level suggests a high inflammation level. I donate blood regularly to keep my ferritin level low. It is 58 now and that's just what I wanted. I don't feel tired at all but then I use progest-e and T3.

I don't think missing iron is the source of your problem. I think adding iron will add to your problems. There is only one study which suggest iron supplements would be beneficial and even this study is ambivalent IMO. It shows that "fatigue decreased by 47.7% in the iron group and by 28.8% in the placebo group" - which is in my opinion a remarkable result for the placebo group - but it also concludes that "there were no significant effects on quality of life, depression or anxiety."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22777991

For a while the symptoms might get better through iron supplementation because your body is going to produce more red blood cells. But Ray Peat explains that this is just a reaction to an injury:

"Many doctors think of anemia as necessarily indicating an iron deficiency, but that isn't correct. 100 years ago, it was customary to prescribe arsenic for anemia, and it worked to stimulate the formation of more red blood cells. The fact that arsenic, or iron, or other toxic material stimulates the formation of red blood cells doesn't indicate a "deficiency" of the toxin, but simply indicates that the body responds to a variety of harmful factors by speeding its production of blood cells. Even radiation can have this kind of stimulating effect, because growth is a natural reaction to injury."

This is an excerpt from "Food-junk and some mystery ailments: Fatigue, Alzheimer's, Colitis, Immunodeficiency", bold by me ...
http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml

"Some women with premenstrual fatigue have found that the “premenstrual” phase tends to get longer and longer, until they have chronic fatigue. I found that to be one of the easiest "PMS" problems to correct. When people are older, and have been sick longer, the fatigue problem is likely to involve more systems of the body. The larger the quantity of "toxic fat" stored in the body, the more careful the person must be about increasing metabolic and physical activity. Using more vitamin E, short-chain saturated fats, and other anti-lipid-peroxidation agents is important.
The inflammatory diseases that develop after prolonged stress are sometimes hard to correct. But avoiding exposure to the major toxic allergens--such as carrageenan--is an essential consideration, just as important as correcting the thyroid function and avoiding the antithyroid substances.
Low cholesterol is very commonly involved in the diseases of stress, and--like inadequate dietary protein--will make the system less responsive to supplementary thryoid hormone.
 
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reikiriki

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Thank you for your response!
I should clarify, the heart, pulse and low blood pressure symptoms are recent. I've been treating my thyroid for 13 years but do still have hypo symptoms. My T3, T4, Free T3/T4 are all in a good range. I agree it seems my thyroid gland is blocked.
About 13 years ago I also began experiencing fatigue and weakness. Labs showed my saturation levels were only 7%.
I began taking Yam 9 years ago, after a tubal ligation my menses were very heavy, to the point of hospital visits for IV medication to stop hemorrage, and the Yam straightened that right out. I have not tried Progest-E will look into that. I've thought about trying Maca.
I recently began taking 2-3 TB of coconut oil a day, just this week in fact. I do not eat many foods that contain PUFAs. I do not drink much milk, or orange juice. A little salt and sugar daily. I do seem to feel much better when I eat more protein. I have potatoes once a week or so.
My ferritin levels are normally very low along with my energy levels, unless I get an iron infusion via IV. I feel really good when my ferritin is at 200. It falls very fast for no known reason. Now I am experiencing fatigue when my ferritin is at 61 when it used to be I did not experience fatigue until it was in the lower ranges. I don't understand this. And when I say fatigue, I mean several naps a day and unable to drive a car. My hair also falls out. This alerts me that it's time to get my blood drawn again and check my ferritin levels. This cycle has been going on for over 2 years.
After I have an infusion of 300 mg, about 4 days later my energy levels jump and stay level until my ferritin drops below about 75. It only took 6 weeks this time for it to drop from over 200 to 61.
Thank you for all of the great material! You've definitely given me some things to ponder and research. If you have any more suggestions after the above clarifications, it would be much appreciated.
Riki
 

Rayser

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Riki, I think the effects you describe after using iron would be pretty much the same if you used cocaine. It would feel good at first, too but it wouldn't be healthy and for much the same reasons. Try to take a step back and look at the situation you are in. It has been going on for many years. You are fatigued - you get iron - your body gets rid of iron quickly - you are fatigued - you get iron.

As the overquoted Einstein said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

This is not suggesting YOU are insane. I just don't see the point of the treatment you're getting.

If iron was indeed the problem you should be fine by now. But for some reason your body works hard to get rid of iron quickly. You respond to it by adding iron. It doesn't get better. You know, this is something doctor's don't get. Your body is not conspiring against you. I haven't heard of any physiological reaction that's not in some way meant to cope with stress, to create energy and to maintain life. There is a reason for this response. There is a reason your body disposes of iron that quickly.

If you read Ray Peat's articles on iron, thyroid, progesterone and estrogens you will notice that the thyroid function and the measurable thyroid hormones in the blood are not necessarily the same. You say the hypothyroid symptoms are recent ... Well, especially polyunsaturated fatty acids and estrogens like ionizing radiation damage cumulatively. I image the "saturation levels" you mention are the blood oxygen levels? Those being low would be the best proof for estrogen dominance. I have to say I know little about tubectomies but it sounds like yours influenced your hormonal balance strongly. I suppose you didn't produce much progesterone after that leaving you estrogen dominant. You then added extra estrogen.
During the last decades since Ray Peat wrote his dissertation on the correlation between a high estrogen level and oxygen deprivation of inner organs (especially the uterus) most endocrinologists acknowledge the causality now. The higher your estrogen level, the less oxygen your organs get. By breathing in carbon dioxide you increase oxygen in your organs. I would try bag breathing a few times a day for a few minutes and see how that makes you feel. I imagine your brain doesn't get enough oxygen either. That alone could be a reason for fatigue. Have you noticed a change in sight? Do you see differently?

What you experience after iron supplementation could be your cells in an excited state (you get similar effects from ionizing radiation and estrogen treatment) and the immediate rising of the stress hormones like cortisol and parathyroid hormone. They are your body's emergency power. If every healthy way to produce energy fails, those hormones kick in. I suppose you will have a very high level of prolactin/serotonin as well.
If you notice feeling better after eating protein I would suggest you try eating it constantly throughout the day. Have you heard of potato pudding? It would lower your estrogen and serotonin levels.
 

Jenn

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Maca is just a potato ;)

Raisins is a better source of iron if you truly need it. (You do need a certain level to be able to donate blood.)
 

Mittir

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Labs showed my saturation levels were only 7%.

Does your doctor measure your saturation index and ferritin level every time
before they prescribe you with iron supplement?
Saturation index and ferritin level together gives a good idea about total iron storage.
They are doing the right thing if they are doing that.
7% saturation level is way below normal range. This would usually mean low
iron level. Ray Peat was talking about doctors who prescribe iron supplement
just based on serum iron or blood hemoglobin.
Iron in excess is bad for health, not the normal level.
Beef and chicken livers are very rich in iron.
 

Gabriel

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

After reading the posts in this thread the following thing mentioned by Josh Rubin came to my mind:

Josh Rubin said:
This is where we get a little concerned and frustrated at times cause people write about, repeat, etc what Ray says without really understanding the mechanisms behind it. Everyone is saying "go give blood," etc in order to lower iron without really understanding if they are truely excess of deficienct. Just doing something without understanding it can make things worse and the journey can and will take much longer. he is actually NOT anti-iron, that is why he recs liver, but only 6oz per wk. We need the iron but TOO MUCH is an issue as well as TOO LITTLE. it is about having the balance between iron and copper, estrogen and progest, etc9

I agree. The issue of iron is certainly not as one-sided as Rayser portrays it. I'd recommend you contact Josh Rubin from East West Healing. I'm sure he'll be able to give you some useful advice.
 

4peatssake

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Gabriel said:
I'd recommend you contact Josh Rubin from East West Healing. I'm sure he'll be able to give you some useful advice.
If I were to contact someone, it would be Ray Peat.

BTW, I did not see anywhere where Rayser indicated that having low iron is a good thing, rather like Ray Peat, she questions whether low iron is the actual problem.

She also has tremendous insight into and very much understands the mechanisms behind what Ray Peat says. She has healed herself!

Personally, I find this attempt to discredit her comments by using criticism of others by another person not present unwarranted and in poor taste. Her contributions to this forum are exceptional and I thank her for that.
 
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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

4peatssake said:
Personally, I find this attempt to discredit her comments by using criticism of others by another person not present unwarranted and in poor taste. Her contributions to this forum are exceptional and I thank her for that.

Yeah, and Gabriel's recommendation aren't really the best, by which I really mean that no one in this forum gives worse recommendations. He is afraid even of vitamin E. He'll post how this is not technically true, and blah blah blah, but bottom line, be extremely careful before following his advice.
 

Gabriel

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

I try to give some balance to the conversations here by providing some more conservative ideas. I can't see what should be wrong with that. I think a good forum is not characterized by everybody agreeing with each other and everybody saying the same, but by people disagreeing, discussing and trying to get to a higher ground by doing that. I'd be happy if you guys don't see me as an evil intruder but just as somebody who likes to add some cautious remarks. Just take it like that, you can always drop it if you don't like it.
 
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reikiriki

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

This is severely affecting my life and while I understand where you are coming from, I certainly hope my reply doesn't get lost in all of this. :(
That being said, I have found Rayser's comments to be very helpful! I've been too tired to get on here and reply but have been reading her posts.
Rayser, I think you may be on to something. It makes sense to me that my body is rejecting the iron, and that whole cycle you explained.
I think the iron is affecting my thyroid even more, as when I went to the doctor yesterday my pulse was 61, temp 97.2, and blood pressure 98/72. This may explain the heart palps.
You are correct in assuming the tubal ligation affected my hormones greatly. So much in fact that my straight hair became curly and has been ever since. One thing I am not yet grasping is the link of Mexican Yam with estrogen. Heavy bleeding is a symptom of high estrogen. After I began taking the Yam, within weeks my cycles were light, PMS-free, and regular and have been for 8 years. This indicates to me that the estrogen is being kept in balance by the Yam. What am I missing?
As far as sight, I haven't noticed a change, but it's been 20/400 for many years, unfortunately.
The low saturation levels were before my tubal ligation, and before my last son was born. I appreciate the time you are taking to help me, I feel we are on the right track!
Reply to Mittir: No doctor has checked my sat levels in many years. I had gone to an endo Dr and he is the one who checked as I was very weak.
Thank you everyone who replied!
Riki
 

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4peatssake

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

reikiriki said:
This is severely affecting my life and while I understand where you are coming from, I certainly hope my reply doesn't get lost in all of this. :(
That being said, I have found Rayser's comments to be very helpful! I've been too tired to get on here and reply but have been reading her posts. Riki
No worries Riki, we do our best to keep threads from being derailed. ;)

Rayser's comments have been brilliant and it is good to hear that you have found them to be helpful!
 

4peatssake

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Gabriel said:
I try to give some balance to the conversations here by providing some more conservative ideas. I can't see what should be wrong with that.
This has been explained to you before Gabriel. But I'll give it another go.

Ray Peat doesn't have conservative ideas. In fact, I would say his ideas are pretty radical. Those of us who participate in the Ray Peat discussion area of this forum have to varying degrees bought in, or are here to learn more about Ray Peat and his work and decide whether this is something they wish to try as well.

In other words, we've jumped into the swimming pool, drunk the purple koolaid - whatever you want to call it - and we're implementing his scientific findings and nutritional recommendations and discussing that. When people ask for help or input, they are looking for Ray Peat ideas - not the Mayo Clinic's, not mine and not yours.

They are not looking for Josh and Jeanne Rubin either. And if they are, they've knocked on the wrong door.

You don't have to buy in. You don't have to agree with Ray Peat. You are welcome to your conservative ideas. They just don't fit where you place them and this is why people are taking issue with the content of your posts.

Gabriel said:
I think a good forum is not characterized by everybody agreeing with each other and everybody saying the same, but by people disagreeing, discussing and trying to get to a higher ground by doing that. I'd be happy if you guys don't see me as an evil intruder but just as somebody who likes to add some cautious remarks. Just take it like that, you can always drop it if you don't like it.
Promoting dissent and disharmony as a means to achieve higher ground? Really? Adding cautious remarks has its roots in fear.
 

Gabriel

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Comparing iron (a essential metal used in many enzymes in the body) to cocaine (an unnecessary and addictive drug) is something I would regard fear promoting. Yes, iron has its dangers but also it uses, so it has both positive and negative effects. But certainly not like cocaine.

You are right that it wasn't very sensitive posting a quote from somebody else, but I had no better words to summarize the problem. Next time I will say it in my own words and be more cautious.

Also, as I as a person (but interestingly only rarely the points I raise) am continuously attacked here (this is very unscientific by the way): I'd like to stress that I very much buy into Peat's theories. I drank a lot of the koolaid. I only just didn't "cannonball" into the Ray Peat pool and I have my reasons for it. Just like you have your reasons and all your rights to do the opposite.

PS: What is so wrong about the Rubins? I thought they are supporting Ray Peat's ideas?

And to get back to the original discussion (hopefully sooner than later): Reikiriki, do you know your last transferrin saturation when the ferritin was 61?
 

4peatssake

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Gabriel said:
Comparing iron (a essential metal used in many enzymes in the body) to cocaine (an unnecessary and addictive drug) is something I would regard fear promoting. Yes, iron has its dangers but also it uses, so it has both positive and negative effects. But certainly not like cocaine.
Ray Peat said:
The amphetamine-like action of estrogen, which undoubtedly contributes to the general level of stress and excitotoxic abuse of nerve cells, is probably the only "useful" facet of estrogen treatment, but a little cocaine might achieve the same effect with no more harm, possibly less.
:P

No one's attacking you Gabriel, just pointing out where there is significant departure from the ideas of Ray Peat. I find it odd that you would promote disagreements on the one hand and then say you are being attacked when people disagree with you.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with the Rubin's, per se. What I found disturbing was a recommendation to consult Josh and ignore Rayser's comments because you personally didn't agree with her and then using a quote by Josh to discredit her as someone who doesn't really understand Ray Peat. In actual fact, she is among the most knowledgeable "Peatarians" in this community and I felt it important that be made clear, especially for new people.
 

Gabriel

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Alright, I think by now it is very clear for all future users that she is the most most knowledgeable and I am the one in this forum that gives the "worst recommendations", to put in j. words. How about you give her a "expert badge" and give me a "idiot-beware-warning-toxic-radioactive"-badge next to my username? That should make it sufficiently clear for all new users.

I wonder why all of you don't just let her answer and stop being so protective. I feel like a bull in a china shop while all I wanted is have a productive discussion about if iron may be beneficial for some people.
 
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j.

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Re: Please help, I can't stand it anymore!! Iron? Or not??

Gabriel said:
Comparing iron (a essential metal used in many enzymes in the body) to cocaine (an unnecessary and addictive drug) is something I would regard fear promoting.

Ray Peat does the same thing when he compares estrogen to cocaine. The comparison is appropriate because that's the effect when there is excess.
 

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