Plant Protein

[Ron J]

I've covered this:

Peat's Surprising Response To My Email. A "Ray Peat Vegan" Is Possible

It takes more work than most people are willing to put in because you have to prepare all of your meals, day after day, every day. Most people here drink lots of milk, juice and eat lots of cheese so there's not a lot of preparation needed for that. I would never take any kind of protein powder. One of the biggest scams in the industry. Some BCAA powders are made from chicken feathers.

What do you think about fat-free milk powder? Same as the protein powders or is it an exception?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

What do you think about fat-free milk powder? Same as the protein powders or is it an exception?

I wouldn't use it.

 

[Ron J]

I wouldn't use it.

Mind explaining why it's a scam? I'm currently getting most of my protein from powder milk.

 

[tara]

Out of curiosity, is it possible for you to be a bit more specific with this statement and provide some clarity to this? ie. when you say Peat has stated that the protein in beans (legumes) may have downsides, what exactly are you referring to? Do you mean in terms of the amino acid profile or something else? thank you

Trying to remember if I've read anything more specific, but this is what I found on today's search:

This one is about toxic substances in beans, not specifically proteins, so maybe doesn't count:
"While nutritional reference tables often show fruits and potatoes as having about 2% protein content, while nuts, grains, and legumes are shown with a high protein content, often in the range of 15% to 40%, they neglect to point out that fruits and potatoes have a very high water content, while that of the seeds is extremely low. The protein content of milk is about 3%, which according to the charts would suggest that it is inferior to beans and grains. In fact, the protein value of grain is negligible, mainly because seeds contain their protein in a storage form, that is extremely rich in nitrogen, but poor in essential amino acids. Special preparation is needed to reduce the toxicity of seeds, and in the case of beans, these methods are never very satisfactory."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml

This one might be more a possibility than an established problem:
"R.J.V. Pulvertaft found "a close similarity between Burkitt cells and human lymphocytes stimulated by bean extract." He concluded that "…the possibility of a relation between Burkitt's lymphoma and a diet of beans should not be neglected," though he emphasized that other factors must be considered, since most people who eat beans don't develop the disease. The intestinal parasites which are common in tropical Africa can cause inflammation of the bowel, leading to the absorption of large amounts of antigens."
Food-junk and some mystery ailments: Fatigue, Alzheimer's, Colitis, Immunodeficiency. Carrageenan

I think this reference to beans is mostly about the phytoestrogens in soyabeans - not sure if if it also refers to any other beans:
"These "natural" effects in sheep were forerunners of the observed estrogenic effects in wild animals, caused by pollutants. Twenty-five years ago I reviewed many of the issues of estrogen's toxicity, and the ubiquity of estrogenic substances, and since then have regularly spoken about it, but I haven't concentrated much attention on the phytoestrogens, because we can usually just choose foods that are relatively free of them. They are so often associated with other food toxins--antithyroid factors, inhibitors of digestive enzymes, immunosuppressants, etc.--that the avoidance of certain foods is desirable. Recently an advocate of soybeans said "if they inhibit the thyroid, why isn't there an epidemic of hypothyroidism in Asia?" I happened to hear this right after seeing newspaper articles about China's problem with 100,000,000 cretins; yes, Asia has endemic hypothyroidism, and beans are widely associated with hypothyroidism."
Estriol, DES, DDT.

I've just found 'The Bean Syndrome' article on Dan's Toxinless site - thanks Dan:
https://www.toxinless.com/ray-peat-the-bean-syndrome.pdf

 

[Gadsie]

Mind explaining why it's a scam? I'm currently getting most of my protein from powder milk.

He probably means that it's either inpure or just has an undesirable ratio of amino acids (inflammatory). If you use it for bodybuilding purposes it can help you build muscle given that you don't already eat enough anabolic protein anyway. But then again there are better sources of protein (for example just regular milk).

 

[tara]

Just keep in mind that everything you listed above (minus fruit/leaves) is less than optimal according to Peat including potatoes.

I think he's described potato juice (without the starch) as pretty high quality protein?
What else did I list, other than fruit, leaves (and eggs and dairy if eating them) that you see as problematic?

Not to mention the sheer amount of fruit you would need to eat to get the minimal protein requirements, which makes that approach very difficult.

I think he's talked about the ketoacids in fruits as he has about potatoes - that because of the nitrogen recycling enabled by the ketoacids, they effectively provide more protein than the standard analyses list.
I agree he doesn't recommend a completely fruitarian or vegan diet, but he seems open to the possibility that if one could know more precisely what the ketoacid and protein content of different fruits were, it might be possible to construct a diet that covered basic protein needs. But we don't, so we can't.
I also agree with you that it would take a lot of fruit. If one is relying on fruit for most of one's energy needs, that takes quite a lot of fruit, too. Yes, likely difficult for most of us to acquire sufficient quantity, quality and variety of fruit. If one is trying to get eg 2400 - 3000 cals of sugar from fruit, that's several kilos (or litres of juice).
If there's ~10 g protein in 1k of some oranges (without the peel), then 5kg oranges can give up to ~50g protein (Californian valencias: Oranges, raw, California, valencias Nutrition Facts & Calories). If there are significant ketoacids, as Peat suggests, maybe the effect protein contribution is well above that. I don't think eating oranges alone would be likely to give compete protein - I think it would probably require more of a variety of fruits and maybe other plants.

I'm not recommending it in general, and I'm not saying Peat recommends it. But I'm not sure he's as categorically opposed to it as you say either. I also note that at least one member here seems to have rebuild her health with fruit and herbs, when all her attempts to include dairy, eggs etc seemed to cause more harm than good. Not that that proves it would be the same for any/everyone else, but it does show that it is at least sometimes possible in some contexts.

Also note how quickly you jumped to the "if you're ok with some eggs and milk" (neither of which are even close to vegan), which is the precise reason that I made my first post regarding the choice to attempt Vegan Peat.

Yes, I made that comment because the OP specifically said he might do that - so quite relevant in the context of the thread, though not particularly in response to your post.

If the op comes back with questions about any health issues, the first response will be: "your vegan diet is probably deficient"...............hence my initial suggestion.

Yeah, it's quite possible deficiencies could arise, and I might be asking questions about that myself. :)
Some vegan sites may just fob it off, though, so I think this might be a useful place to be as well. Travis's suggestion applies:

You should go to cronometer.com and input what you are eating and/or what you plan on eating. That way, you can see directly how different foods affect vitamins and mineral levels.

 

[tara]

Pea, hemp, mushrooms for plants, as fish,seashell,eggs,milk, will still be on my list, chances are good not risking any deficencies....

So, not even vegetarian, let alone vegan. :) Maybe you can get the fish liver and some oysters as well.
You could still check out cronometer to get a rough idea of quantities/covering nutrient needs. But you should be able to do it.
I think there may be better plant sources than relying heavily on pea protein. I don't know much about the hemp protein.
Mushrooms are not plants. But most vegetarians and vegans are OK with eating them, AFAIK. :)

I was referring to the fruit only because the post was about the "optimal" vegan foods, which excludes potatoes.

My current view is that 'optimal' probably varies from person to person, and quite possibly also changes over time. I don't know what the long term effects will be, and I have no opportunity to compare with a diet high in good quality ripe tropical fruit (most of us probably can't), but potatoes seem to serve me well - days when I eat potatoes go better than days when I don't.

What do you think about fat-free milk powder? Same as the protein powders or is it an exception?

Some degradation/denaturing would be associated with the drying process of any food. Milk that hasn't been dehydrated would probably be better, if that is practical for you. Otherwise, if it agrees with you, it may be better protein powder than many other alternatives. That and gelatine.

 

[Mito]

What do you think about fat-free milk powder? Same as the protein powders or is it an exception?

Ray said he likes to eat milk powder pancakes.

 

[Felipe]

So much knowledge! Wow! There is a looong road ahead of me...

Hemp protein seems to have quite a good profile and is recommended as THE plant alternative. And yes mushrooms are no plants, sorry

 

[theLaw]

I think he's described potato juice (without the starch) as pretty high quality protein?
What else did I list, other than fruit, leaves (and eggs and dairy if eating them) that you see as problematic?


I think he's talked about the ketoacids in fruits as he has about potatoes - that because of the nitrogen recycling enabled by the ketoacids, they effectively provide more protein than the standard analyses list.
I agree he doesn't recommend a completely fruitarian or vegan diet, but he seems open to the possibility that if one could know more precisely what the ketoacid and protein content of different fruits were, it might be possible to construct a diet that covered basic protein needs. But we don't, so we can't.
I also agree with you that it would take a lot of fruit. If one is relying on fruit for most of one's energy needs, that takes quite a lot of fruit, too. Yes, likely difficult for most of us to acquire sufficient quantity, quality and variety of fruit. If one is trying to get eg 2400 - 3000 cals of sugar from fruit, that's several kilos (or litres of juice).
If there's ~10 g protein in 1k of some oranges (without the peel), then 5kg oranges can give up to ~50g protein (Californian valencias: Oranges, raw, California, valencias Nutrition Facts & Calories). If there are significant ketoacids, as Peat suggests, maybe the effect protein contribution is well above that. I don't think eating oranges alone would be likely to give compete protein - I think it would probably require more of a variety of fruits and maybe other plants.

I'm not recommending it in general, and I'm not saying Peat recommends it. But I'm not sure he's as categorically opposed to it as you say either. I also note that at least one member here seems to have rebuild her health with fruit and herbs, when all her attempts to include dairy, eggs etc seemed to cause more harm than good. Not that that proves it would be the same for any/everyone else, but it does show that it is at least sometimes possible in some contexts.


Yes, I made that comment because the OP specifically said he might do that - so quite relevant in the context of the thread, though not particularly in response to your post.


Yeah, it's quite possible deficiencies could arise, and I might be asking questions about that myself. :)
Some vegan sites may just fob it off, though, so I think this might be a useful place to be as well. Travis's suggestion applies:

I never said that Peat was opposed to a vegan diet, but that based on his writing/interviews, in his view it wouldn't be optimal...............Optimal being the key word. This appears to be a misunderstanding of how you and I are each using the word. When you start to get away from fruit/dairy/liver/eggs, you now have to find those nutrients elsewhere, which as you already mentioned, can be a challenge. Not impossible, but certainly a challenge, so I would define that as less-than-optimal.

With regards to Potato Juice, again it's not as optimal as dairy in terms of nutrient content, but it's certainly a high-quality protein.

I dont know if I would go fully vegan (because of eggs,cheese,milk) but thanks westside pufas, you ve helped me loads

Just noticed this from the op, which is clearly not any definition of Vegan, so not sure why he even asked the original question. This feels a bit like gasslighting........

Certainly a vegan can find some useful info here, but I think it's a bit like wanting to do crossfit without the Olympic lifts............you can do it, but it's much more challenging than just following the standard protocol (not an endorsement of Crossfit).

Although, we both just spent time giving advice to someone who isn't even sure how Vegan they are.........

 

[Felipe]

I never said I wanna go fully vegan, I was just asking which plant based proteins could be used to not get any major deficencies... that vegan topic just came up all by itself but never been intended although its been an interesting thread so far

 

[Felipe]

By animal protein, I wasnt specific enough so my fault... I meant meat or more specific ethnical reasons

 

[Travis]

I have a chart on the amino acid ratios of some common proteins to give you an idea. The "proper ratio" of amino acids is somewhat subjective, and the Food and Nutrition Board's recommendations are not necessarily the best.

I basically just look at the tryptophan/LNAA ratio and total methionine.

 

[tara]

When you start to get away from fruit/dairy/liver/eggs, you now have to find those nutrients elsewhere, which as you already mentioned, can be a challenge. Not impossible, but certainly a challenge, so I would define that as less-than-optimal.

Maybe you are right for the average person - may vary by context.

With regards to Potato Juice, again it's not as optimal as dairy in terms of nutrient content, but it's certainly a high-quality protein.

Milk has better calcium, but protein-wise I'm not sure about that even for the average person. In some contexts the potato juice soup can almost certainly be more optimal than dairy, which is why Peat has talked about it. Dairy does have a lot going for it if it works for you, though.

I think our difference might be that you have in mind a particular kind of 'average' person and context for whom a particular version of diet may be optimal. And then there are different ways to look at 'optimal' - from the PoV of the nutrition itself, or the convenience of the diet.

I guess I get a bit defensive when I think Peat's ideas are being oversimplified in a way that doesn't fairly represent them.

 

[theLaw]

Maybe you are right for the average person - may vary by context.


Milk has better calcium, but protein-wise I'm not sure about that even for the average person. In some contexts the potato juice soup can almost certainly be more optimal than dairy, which is why Peat has talked about it. Dairy does have a lot going for it if it works for you, though.

I think our difference might be that you have in mind a particular kind of 'average' person and context for whom a particular version of diet may be optimal. And then there are different ways to look at 'optimal' - from the PoV of the nutrition itself, or the convenience of the diet.

I guess I get a bit defensive when I think Peat's ideas are being oversimplified in a way that doesn't fairly represent them.

For me, Optimal means the absolute best diet one can find for themselves to promote health, so by using averages and Peat's own advice to callers when asked many times, fruit/dairy would be overall more optimal than Potato Juice.

I assume this is why Peat suggests fruit/dairy as opposed to potatoes juice, which he has only mentioned a few times over dozens of call-in shows.

All of this is probably a mute point, however, because Haidut's diet is less than optimal by these standards, but it appears to work just fine for him, and member VOS claimed that he was thriving on large amounts of MCT oil (over 100G/day), so perhaps it's just a piece of the puzzle.

This sounds like a "perfect is the enemy of good" situation, so I guess we'll just have to agree on low-pufa!!!

 

[tara]

This sounds like a "perfect is the enemy of good" situation, so I guess we'll just have to agree on low-pufa!!!

:)

 

[Ritchie]

Trying to remember if I've read anything more specific, but this is what I found on today's search:

This one is about toxic substances in beans, not specifically proteins, so maybe doesn't count:
"While nutritional reference tables often show fruits and potatoes as having about 2% protein content, while nuts, grains, and legumes are shown with a high protein content, often in the range of 15% to 40%, they neglect to point out that fruits and potatoes have a very high water content, while that of the seeds is extremely low. The protein content of milk is about 3%, which according to the charts would suggest that it is inferior to beans and grains. In fact, the protein value of grain is negligible, mainly because seeds contain their protein in a storage form, that is extremely rich in nitrogen, but poor in essential amino acids. Special preparation is needed to reduce the toxicity of seeds, and in the case of beans, these methods are never very satisfactory."
Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

This one might be more a possibility than an established problem:
"R.J.V. Pulvertaft found "a close similarity between Burkitt cells and human lymphocytes stimulated by bean extract." He concluded that "…the possibility of a relation between Burkitt's lymphoma and a diet of beans should not be neglected," though he emphasized that other factors must be considered, since most people who eat beans don't develop the disease. The intestinal parasites which are common in tropical Africa can cause inflammation of the bowel, leading to the absorption of large amounts of antigens."
Food-junk and some mystery ailments: Fatigue, Alzheimer's, Colitis, Immunodeficiency. Carrageenan

I think this reference to beans is mostly about the phytoestrogens in soyabeans - not sure if if it also refers to any other beans:
"These "natural" effects in sheep were forerunners of the observed estrogenic effects in wild animals, caused by pollutants. Twenty-five years ago I reviewed many of the issues of estrogen's toxicity, and the ubiquity of estrogenic substances, and since then have regularly spoken about it, but I haven't concentrated much attention on the phytoestrogens, because we can usually just choose foods that are relatively free of them. They are so often associated with other food toxins--antithyroid factors, inhibitors of digestive enzymes, immunosuppressants, etc.--that the avoidance of certain foods is desirable. Recently an advocate of soybeans said "if they inhibit the thyroid, why isn't there an epidemic of hypothyroidism in Asia?" I happened to hear this right after seeing newspaper articles about China's problem with 100,000,000 cretins; yes, Asia has endemic hypothyroidism, and beans are widely associated with hypothyroidism."
Estriol, DES, DDT.

I've just found 'The Bean Syndrome' article on Dan's Toxinless site - thanks Dan:
https://www.toxinless.com/ray-peat-the-bean-syndrome.pdf

Thankyou tara, interesting reading.. It certainly doesn't seem Peat is the biggest fan of legumes, however his listed research and subsequent conclusions seem to be based on the proposed plant toxins in raw, uncooked legumes (or extracts of raw legumes). I wonder if the soaking and cooking of them (similar to mushrooms, starchy tubers, leafy greens and potatoes) subtracts from these proposed issues.. I am referring to non-soy legumes, as I think soy runs into a few issues due to its PUFA content where as other legumes seem to be relatively low in PUFA.

 

[Felipe]

Legumes are also high in phyticacid, enzymeinhibitors, rich in fiber(promoting endotoxins)...but I believe to have read, preparing them traditionally will mitigate the negative effects

 

[A. squamosa]

pretty sure Ray Peat created a skim-milk power pancake?

 

[Ron J]

He probably means that it's either inpure or just has an undesirable ratio of amino acids (inflammatory). If you use it for bodybuilding purposes it can help you build muscle given that you don't already eat enough anabolic protein anyway. But then again there are better sources of protein (for example just regular milk).

I was thinking that it would be something worse, such as the lack of nutrients, poorly absorbed protein and such. If it's just impurities, I'll keep consuming the powder skim milk and casein powder.