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Phenibut: A Vice, Not A Virtue

Discussion in 'Mental Issues' started by DaveFoster, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    I don't think I mentioned the time I stayed up for 48 hours, took phenibut, slept for 16 hours and met God.

    I wish I remembered what he said!

    Nevermind! I found it. This is from several years ago in high school, and it's riddled with typos:

    Stardate: Sometime in 2013

    Location: The depths of my mind.


    Preface

    Let me preface my experience my by stating the conditions wherein I received my revelation. Firstly, I had consumed multiple cognitive enhancers including noopept, aniracetam, and Alpha GPC, which is a form of choline for the brain. I also consumed around 450 mg of Adrafinil in two doses, one with 300mg at around 10:00 PM on the previous day, and another 150mg dose at around 4:00 AM the following morning. Adrafinil is a eugeroic and wakefulness enhancer with properties similar to that of an amphetamine like Adderall, but far more mild and less toxic. Adrafinil is metabolized by the liver, which can cause problems in those with liver complications, and turned into Modafinil, which as a half-life of around 8 hours and is active in the brain.

    Waking up at around 7:00 AM, I stayed up until the following morning, and I finally went to sleep at around 5:00 PM the next day, which equals a total time awake of around 34 consecutive hours. Before going to sleep, I consumed 500mg of Magnesium Citrate, around 100 mg of L-Theanine, which is a relaxant, and around 250 mg of Phenibut, which is a metabolizable form of GABA, which helps aid in very deep andresotrative sleep. All of these compounds compounded in their effects, allowing me to undergo an extremely deep phase of sleep. Additionally, I was recovering from some hormonal disruption due to the consumption of D-Aspartic Acid, which had raised my prolactin levels above baseline, resulting in emotional sensitivity.

    My Experience with the Creator

    After falling asleep, I was taken into a sort of space that resembled something extremely vivid and real, but still in the dream state. At one point, I recall imagining that I was standing, and then falling backwards slowly, hitting my entire body against the wall and falling back down to sleep, which scared me to the extent where I had to wake up and make sure this wasn’t the case. The lucidity of the dreams were far more than usual, but in a different way than a typical lucid dream. Rather than a physical sensation of experience, as is the case with lucid dreams, I felt a form of emotional hypersensitivity and involvement within the dream, which was simultaneously pleasant and terrifying due to the dream’s content.

    After entering into the dream state, I began to mull over the meaning of my existence, as I exposed myself to the Creator of the universe, who did not present Himself to me in any hierarchical sense of overarching superiority, but in the same manner as I think of myself. There was no sense of foreignness or superiority, but there was a sense of emotional power and bravado when I came into the presence of this Being, similar to the feeling of having an mental epiphany. I began asking myself who I was, with regards to my identity. I came to the conclusion that I am not a reflection of my body, emotions, personality, or any other construct in the material plane, as this does not reflect the existence of my consciousness. What followed was a realization of my identity in its purest, unadulterated sense, which was accompanied with a sense of extreme, unexplainable euphoria and a sense of interconnectivity. During this stage of euphoria, I realized the purpose of all life and existence, which is one in the same. This purpose is to experience all possible combinations of emotional, mental, and physical states, on an infinite spectrum of continuity without rest and with neverending expansion in complexity.

    Basically, the purpose of life is to separate itself from itself, much in the same way as a dividing cell, so as to diversify it’s own experience. Diversification, complexity, novelty, and infinite combination all are referencing the purpose of existence. This justifies the existence of evil and pain, as these are mere extensions of the principle of diversification of experience. Further, I experienced a deep sense of fear and anxiety when I came to this realization, as it justifies the existence of hell and horror, at which point I awoke. Following such, I reflected on the matter, and came to the conclusion that such experiences must occur, and that they will occur and be conquered in due time, as the fear is only a natural response to the unknown.

    Most importantly, upon awaking, I recognized the distinction between the logical mind and the base, primitive dream mind. My sense of ego, identity, desire, and impulse began to come back as my logical mind re-engaged itself. I then came to the realization that to search for the meaning of life is futile, as humans employ the technology of the human brain, which has an inclination towards that which will benefit life and itself, rather than that which will reveal objectivity, in its purest sense. We are built for survival, not truth, and even if we believe our mind to be truly logical and accurate, it is not and has an ingrained propensity towards bias. Specifically, this bias manifests as one that upholds life over death, positivity over negativity, happiness over sadness, existence over the non-existence. All of this is simply the fate of our evolution, and it must be this way for us to exist in our current state as primitive beings.

    Lastly, employing the logical, wakeful mind, I came to realization of the purpose of humanity, or rather beings on their respective levels of individuality. This purpose is simply to exist according to the biological and environmental inclinations presented to them. This is not to say that all individuals should weigh their old, reptilian brain, rather than their newly developed prefrontal cortex. In contrast, this is not to say that all individuals should weight their newly developed prefrontal cortex over their base instincts and impulses. Rather, we should simply exist in a state of constant acceptance to change, both accepting the past and the future. In practical application, simply accept how you are and pursue your desires, as they will bring you true happiness. As humans, we have a cultural habit of trying to define happiness before we reach it, but this is an enigma that doesn’t exist. Humans have evolved the state of boredom, and therefore we will never be happy with what we have, and that’s perfectly fine. [Here's a projection of mine, being bored in school.] We have a cultural obsession with abstraction, perfection, totality, absoluteness, wholeness, artificial simplicity, and efficiency. [Again, more projection, but also an reflection of my experience in public schools.] To achieve the purpose of the human, simply live in accordance with your desires and your need for constant variety and change. Stop when you need to stop, walk when you need to walk, and run when you need to run. Do not eliminate any of these based on an external source, but rather alternate based on your own internal needs.

    Cliffs and Summary

    Meaning of life in general: To experience maximal variety, novelty, and diversity. To experience all experience.

    Meaning of individual life: To direct consciousness in accordance with the factors that influence physical existence. To live in accordance with the body and environment. To honor the biological and psychological needs, whatever they may be. To reject external influence, if it does not resonate with the desires of the individual. To be true to one's self, as it represents the totality of your body and mind. The consciousness does not play a role involving specificity or properties, but rather is the driver of the vehicle.

    A way not to be happy and accepting: Try to accomplish the first goal [the meaning of life] at the expense of the second [the meaning of individual life]. This is what religious individuals attempt to do, and they are not happy, and that is fine. Do not reject the internal at the expense of the external, as the latter is non-existing without the former. As above, so below.
     
  2. smith

    smith Member

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    cool post
     
  3. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    @DaveFoster
    I also used alcohol with phenibut with alcohol once. IIRC the dose was between 1-2 g . Had no problem whatsoever. But I remember that it was actually not impossible to bring me into anxiety thought patters and create anxiety. I guess I have strong mind then. This is what its generally like on phenibut for me, it is just much easier to not think about negative stuff but it just affects me if I do and it is easier to jump out of the negative downwards spiral of thinking.

    Anyway what do you think of the first post of this page from reddit ?
    https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/7g1dpm/phenibut_and_the_puzzle_of_gabas_serotonin/

    Did anyone combine phenibut with a dopaminergic drug like lisuride?
     
  4. lampofred

    lampofred Member

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    Interesting that many Eastern religious texts say literally the exact opposite. Because we are all essentially the same, evolved from the same undifferentiated One, desire/individuality is pointless and should be absolutely suppressed, the goal being to lose all sense of self and have your soul revert back into the dedifferentiated state. The effects of following Eastern spirituality also are very similar to that of getting a frontal lobotomy, intense bliss/happiness but no goals/desires/individuality/self-interest.

    Could it be said that your theory is "progestogenic" because it promotes differentiation, whereas most mainstream spirituality is very "estrogenic" because it promotes de-differentiation?

    Viewed in a negative light, nirvana is simply soul suicide... but poor executive function is related to both very low dopamine levels and very high dopamine levels, whereas the strong executive function state is related to moderate dopamine levels, so maybe there is an ultimate dedifferentiated state that is even higher than the differentiated state even though most dedifferentiation is obviously less developed than differentiation.
     
  5. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    I think the username "Debonaire_Death" would be one of the most unfortunate picks for any drug user.

    The user assumes that serotonin mediates the euphoric effect of some psychedelics, and he also assumes that NMDA antagonists have serotonergic effects, but for the latter point, the following 2004 study by Nisijima and others suggests otherwise:

    "In the group pretreated with saline, the rectal temperature increased to more than 40 degrees C, and all of the animals died within 90 min of the drug's administration. The NA and 5-HT levels in the anterior hypothalamus increased to about 15- and 1100-fold of the pre-administration levels, respectively. Pretreatment with risperidone (0.5 mg/kg) and ketanserin (5 mg/kg) prevented the development of hyperthermia and the increase in the NA level. Memantine (10 mg/kg) and MK-801 (0.5 mg/kg) also prevented the development of hyperthermia and the increase in the NA level. These results suggest that NMDA antagonists, as well as potent 5-HT (2A) antagonists, may be effective drugs for the treatment of 5-HT syndrome."

    Source: Memantine, an NMDA antagonist, prevents the development of hyperthermia in an animal model for serotonin syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI

    There's an interesting 2009 study by Zádori and others that posits the neuroprotective role of kynurenic acid. Its elevations in the context of dementia could be due to an adaptive role, where it protects the brain from some of the more excitotoxic tryptophan metabolites, particularly quinolinic acid.

    "Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s and Huntington’s diseases are chronic neurodegenerative disorders of a progressive nature which lead to a considerable deterioration of the quality of life. Their pathomechanisms display some common features, including an imbalance of the tryptophan metabolism. Alterations in the concentrations of neuroactive kynurenines can be accompanied by devastating excitotoxic injuries and metabolic disturbances. From therapeutic considerations, possibilities that come into account include increasing the neuroprotective effect of kynurenic acid, or decreasing the levels of neurotoxic 3-hydroxy-L-kynurenine and quinolinic acid. The experimental data indicate that neuroprotection can be achieved by both alternatives, suggesting opportunities for further drug development in this field."

    Source: http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/8818/1/Zadori2009bjav Kyn..pdf

    Elevated levels of any biological substance do not necessarily imply a causal role in any given pathology. Kynurenic acid could be adaptive, which seems plausible, or it could simply be loosely related to some other metabolic pathway involved in the given disease.

    To what text would you refer? Those modern interpretations of the transcendence found in Eastern philosophy do not compare to the original meanings, and they certainly reflect a degeneration in spirituality. The very definition of "degeneration" would be a lack of differentiation and a return to a less complex and indistinguishable state; this contrasts against individuation of the self. Nirvana occurs at the locus of life and envisions a maximization and not minimization of potential. Take the following quote from Julius Evola's The Doctrine of Awakening: The Attainment of Self-Mastery According to the Earliest Buddhist Texts for example:

    Both in some aspects of the Mahayana, in which alone the esoteric doctrine of the “awakening” has been replaced by a “religion,” and in other currents, the essential core of Buddhism has been enveloped by philosophical, mythological, and ritualistic dross and superstructures. When considered in relation to them, the so-called “Zen”-Buddhism stands for a return to the origins, a reaction in all respects similar to that of early Buddhism itself to degraded Brahmanism. Now the Zen throws into clear relief the essential value of illumination, its transcendency in respect of all that which, in the several cases, may favor it, and at the same time its immanency, that is to say the fact that the state of enlightenment and nirvana does not mean a state of evanescent ecstasy, an escape, so to say, of which compassion is only a pale reflex accompanied by horror of all that is action and affirmation; it is instead a higher form of freedom, a higher dimension; for him who holds fast to it there is no action that cannot be performed, and all bonds are loosened. This is the right interpretation of the doctrine of the void, of the non-ego, and also of the Mahayanic conception of the identity of nirvana and samsara in a third principle higher than either and anterior to either. That should be recalled to those who accept unilaterally the theory of innocuousness, of the timorous respect of all forms of life. As a matter of fact, Zen Buddhism could be called the doctrine of the Samurai, i.e., of the Japanese nobility[5] who are certainly not noted for their abhorrence of arms and bloodshed. The fact is that the pivot on which all this wisdom turns is one only: the severance of the bond of the ego, the destruction of ignorance, the awakening. When the bond of the ego is severed, all restrictions cease. On the human soil on which the seed of the doctrine falls depends the fruit it will bear. The humanitarian, pacifist, vegetarian figurine of the Buddhist is a distortion, and in any case its acceptance is not compulsory. A Samurai and a Kamikaze may equally well be a Buddhist. From a book in which a Buddhist chaplain describes the days of the Japanese put to death by the Americans[6] we see how these men died without conversions or repentance, in a perfect state of Buddhist grace; men who if they were not “war criminals” as the victors claimed, were as generals, officials and politicians certainly not delicate shy flowers of the field.
     
  6. Dhair

    Dhair Member

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    I'm curious, do you find Evola's work to be compelling in general?
     
  7. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Evola has around 15 books as well as other writings, and I've only read a handful. I find value in his esoteric analysis. As far as political analysis, for me at least, Evola gave an interesting perspective of Marx. He acknowledged Marx's critiques of capitalism but viewed capitalism as inherently problematic due to its inherent materialism, itself also recognized by Evola in Marxism itself. Beyond his analysis, Evola prescribes very littlehe closest that I could find would be hermitism. He himself practiced celibacy, possibly involuntarily due to a back injury during a bombing raid, but he justified his lifestyle choice as an expressed rejection of feminism and modernity. It remains a difficult question: how to live within a culture while devoid of influence from it. At the very least, Evola could not be dubbed a hypocrite or one who employed "half-measures." He took his philsophical tenets to their logical ends, much like Nietzsche.

    As far as an expression of his academic prowess, The Mystery of the Grail has interesting commentary on mythology. If you desire a work representative of his political beliefs, then Men Among the Ruins would be the most comprehensive. Audio recordings of both exist, maybe on YouTube.

    At times, exposure to Evola's philosophy can garner profound feelings of depression, but he inevitably integrates any pessimism back into a more comprehensive spiritual perspective. Specifically, chaos and order constantly war with one another in varying forms. Intermittent periods may seem hopleless as chaos overtakes the world, but order must inevitably triumph so as to restore harmony and begin the new cycle, as related to the unyielding Tao, cyclical yugas and so forth.
     
  8. milk

    milk Member

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    What would be an ideal Phenibut dose? My anxiety is pretty bad, particularly when I try to do serious reading. Alcohol helps somewhat, but drinking regularly is a bad idea. Lemongrass tea helps somewhat, but the effect is mild. So I'm thinking about (yes, cautiously, very cautiously) trying Phenibut.

    Also, does it make you guys lose hair?
     
  9. lampofred

    lampofred Member

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    Tao Te Ching, Yoga Vasistha and basically all "Right Hand Path" texts, especially the super mainstream ones like Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavad Purana (although it is extremely obvious that the last one has been majorly altered for selfish ruling purposes over time), except for the Vedas, all say that the fact you exist means you are imperfect, and that once you are perfect, you lose all individuality and therefore don't really exist anymore. The reason for this is that the cause of action/creation/movement is you trying to fulfill your desires and experience pleasure, and once you have fulfilled all your desires and are perfect, there is no more reason for you to do anything out of self-interest. The logic they use is that if you were once a king and had the entire world, and then you lose it, you won't be fully satisfied until you gain it back. But a peasant who has never experienced such riches and doesn't have such grandiose desires even in his dreams (he must be truly free of desire, not just suppressing his desires) will experience the same level of satisfaction/pleasure as the king regaining his riches just by going home and eating a nice meal, for example. Taking it further, someone who is truly absolutely free of desire (by cleansing his mind via prolonged meditation) will experience the same amount of pleasure as someone who has accomplished everything there is to accomplish in the world. And at that point, you are basically producing endogenous heroin because of how happy/satisfied you are so you have no desire to initiate action or movement and because you have no desires, you have no more individuality, and your soul dissolves into the universe.

    It's only when you get into Left Hand Path philosophies that you hear that things like individuality, desire, ambition are good things. In a sense, the LHP route is "estrogenic" but has a "progestogenic" result because estrogen = excitation/initiation of action, but progesterone = differentiation?? Whereas the RHP route is "progestogenic" because you are so happy you don't have any more goals or ambitions but has an "estrogenic" result because you lose individuality/differentiation??

    Seems like RHP is about increasing peace, calmness, satisfaction (GABA). LHP is about increasing energy and power (dopamine).
     
  10. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    I've used around 500 mg to a gram at a time with good results, but it's normally recommended at a dosage of 250 mg to 500 mg at a time.

    Desire and ambition definitely fall within the bounds of that described as Dionysiac, Telluric or within the Path of the Left-Hand. However, the Eightfold Path offers a template for behavior that supersedes emotion but cannot be characterized as inactive.

    “If you understand others you are smart.
    If you understand yourself you are illuminated.
    If you overcome others you are powerful.
    If you overcome yourself you have strength.
    If you know how to be satisfied you are rich.
    If you can act with vigor, you have a will.
    If you don't lose your objectives you can be long-lasting.
    If you die without loss, you are eternal.” - Laozi in the Tao Te Ching

    Within the vāmācāra, Kālī destroys the forces of chaos, the enemies of the devas. Thus, the Path of the Left Hand, which is that related to the Divine Mother, Shakti, should not be conflated with evil. Rather, sources of power and destruction have a vital role in a much greater order.
     
  11. smith

    smith Member

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