PFS And Vein Health

[coppersocks]

I've been suffering from PFS since I quit under four months ago. My recovery has been steady under the direction of CDNuts over at the Swole Source forum of PFS.

I've taken this next bit from my introductory post over on the meet and greet section:

Up till this point I have procured a number of products from ideal labs (5a-DHP, PAN, ANDRO, VIT K, T3, DIAMANT) but I've stopped taking any as I want to get to the bottom of seemingly unique symptom that that I have developed and I desperately want resolved before it does lasting damage to my body..

Essentially when I first crashed, during the first three weeks or so, along with all the usual symptoms that I got I also started getting spider veins on my scrotum. I would experience a tingling pain down there and over the course of a day a new vein would then appear, I also became more vascular looking in general both in the gym(I weight train five days a week) and away from it with small veins showing on my chest, bicep and lower abdomen. This went on for a couple of weeks and left me with a very mild case of varicocele on my left testicle and several small spider veins on the bottom of my scrotum. Though unsightly it was hard to notice and it stopped happening and I didn't mind the other veins as many gym goers seek to attain such a look!

About six weeks ago I ordered 5a-DHP and was taking it quite often though not everyday for the better part of a month, though I enjoyed the effects, eventually I stopped as I started experiencing what I thought was low estrogen effects and I also wanted to prepare myself for a cycle of taking PAN/VIT K combination applied to the scrotum after reading the thread about it.

Quite soon after starting the PAN/VIT K combo I again started experiencing what seemed to be low estrogen, so I decided to give myself a break for another two weeks and then start a very low dose Pan and Andro combo.

Less than a week after quitting I started feeling a draggin feeling and almost burning sensation in my scrotum and along the side of my penis. I went to bed and woke up that night with two big blue veins on either side of my penis, much larger varicocele on my left side and enlarged veins connected to my right. I also have a multitude of smaller dark red blood vessels that are visible whilst erect on my penis and scrotum skin.

I could get over this I think but I also now feel the weakening of veins across my body with them slowly becoming more visible (but not protruding yet) all over. My legs, arms both have blue veins showing more clearly as well as very, very slightly on my cheek. I can also see the beginning of spider veins on the back of my legs and arms and I think back. I would barely notice this happening other than the new veins across my arms and the fact that I am getting a constant feeling of slight discomfort where they are beginning to show.

Clearly this is alarming as I really did think I was coming out of the woods with this thing, getting better quicker than most. I guess I'm looking for anyone who can help as my GP took a glance at my varicocele and told me it's normal and didn't even look at the veins I would obviously love to stop the onset of these veins before they become too apparent (I've always been vain... pun totally intended).

My confusion lies however in the fact that it was my understanding that protruding veins were caused by high E, as I'm sure I saw a study posted by Haidut at some stage. And I'm also relatively sure that I was experiencing low E during the second onset of this. I've also read that progesterone can have an impact on them, though I've read conflicting reports. Peat has gone on record to say that it is caused my low progesterone, is this verified and if it is is there a way to raise that with the products I have? I have a hormone panel coming back from the docs sometime this week but if anyone has any suggestions or leading questions that would help me figure this out it would be really appreciated. Also, I just want to add I'm not assigning this to the taking of any of ideal labs products. I stopped taking them as if I start taking one or two in order to combat this I want to be able to tell whether it's working or not in comparison to not taking them.

Diet wise I am eating naturally with the reintroduction of sugars after doing some reading here with plenty of milk and OJ and occasional liver. And I am supplementing with D3, Caffeine, L-theanine, Spirulina, magnesium, zinc, glycine, vit c and creatine. Along with a cycle of herbs advised by CDNuts.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

 

[dookie]

@coppersocks

First of all, you are taking too many things, combining too many powerful supplements.

Second of all, which side-effects did you think were "low estrogen"? When estrogen is low, there should be no edema or water-retention at all. Not just skinniness, but breast, thighs, face, etc should not be puffy or protruding.

I consider the vein things you wrote about to be exactly an effect of high estrogen. Green veins, varicose veins, protruding veins, purple veins, etc. all seem to be connected to estrogen.

Many supplements which are "anti-estrogenic" or "aromatase inhibitors" in theory, can actually in practice be estrogenic. Peat said something along the lines of: "If you are sick, reconsider everything you are doing as a contributing factor."

 

[coppersocks]

@dookie

Thanks for your reply. I tried to avoid taking too many supplements at the same time but you may be correct.
The symptoms that seemed to be low E to me were cracking joints, complete lack of anxiety in comparison to when I first crashed, listlessness at times and less sexual pleasure when aroused.
My veins at this stage continue to get worse which is worrying, the blue veins on my right shoulder and upper chest are becoming more apparent by the day, as are veins on my calf, bicep, butt and even blood vessels around the eyes. I can feel the blood pulse through veins on my legs and arms as well as if it's struggling to get through. It's pretty disheartening and worrisome.
If these are, as you say an effect of high estrogen, what is the smartest way to go about resolving this in your opinion?

 

[dookie]

@coppersocks

I would stop all supplements for a while, including herbs and vitamins.

The only effective thing I have found against estrogen is high amounts of coffee, coupled with a good diet. Orange juice and boiled mushrooms may also help a bit, if you tolerate them

 

[meatbag]

.

 

[coppersocks]

Thanks for both replies. I've just gotten back from the doctors office where I picked up my results. The doctor wasn't there so he wasn't able to go through them with me. The results haven't got the units on them, so they are difficult to get a reading on. Here is a few:
Estradiol: 31
Testosterone: 21.1 (I'm gonna assume that this is measured in nmol/l as it doesn't indicate on the page that I am too high or too low and this would convert to 609ng/dl)
ESR: 2
Cholerterol: 4.8
Triglyceride: 0.66
Calcium: 2.4
Magnesium: 1.0
Ferrintin: 184.1
Glucose: 4.7
HDL: 1.82
LFL: 2.73
Iron: 16.6
PSA: 1.03
Albumin: 53
TSH: 1.45
UREA: 8.0
Creatinine: 106

There's others here but I'm not sure what's important. Does that E look too high as it seems to be within the normal range from what I've looked up.
To answer your question I was taking about four drops of Pan and Vit K per day when I was using them together.

 

[Elize]

Thanks for both replies. I've just gotten back from the doctors office where I picked up my results. The doctor wasn't there so he wasn't able to go through them with me. The results haven't got the units on them, so they are difficult to get a reading on. Here is a few:
Estradiol: 31
Testosterone: 21.1 (I'm gonna assume that this is measured in nmol/l as it doesn't indicate on the page that I am too high or too low and this would convert to 609ng/dl)
ESR: 2
Cholerterol: 4.8
Triglyceride: 0.66
Calcium: 2.4
Magnesium: 1.0
Ferrintin: 184.1
Glucose: 4.7
HDL: 1.82
LFL: 2.73
Iron: 16.6
PSA: 1.03
Albumin: 53
TSH: 1.45
UREA: 8.0
Creatinine: 106

There's others here but I'm not sure what's important. Does that E look too high as it seems to be within the normal range from what I've looked up.
To answer your question I was taking about four drops of Pan and Vit K per day when I was using them together.

 

[Elize]

We need to be able to see the reference ranges.as they differ from lab to lab

Elize

 

[coppersocks]

Unfortunately they didn't supply them to me. I'm going for a more comprehensive blood panel in the coming weeks at a private clinic so hopefully I'll have a fuller picture then. Luckily there hasn't seem to be any deterioration in my condition since I last posted. Previously I could actively feel the veins struggling at times, and then an engorged blue vein would result. However this process seems to have abated somewhat. I'll get back here with my new lab results once I have them.

 

[japanesedude]

Recently I've found Red blood vessels in the left testicle, probably a spider vein.
When I was 15,I had random testicle pain on left testicle so These symptoms are proberbly related.
Im using Pansterone + Androsterone combo on scrotum too.
but it makes me tired/fatigued and seems that I get Estrogen from Pansterone(even with Androsterone)
anyway,I'll try Progesterne or Progesto E (stack with Pansterone or Andosterone to combat anti androgenic effects from Progesterone) on scrotum.

Im not PFS infact I've never used Finasteride or any kinds of 5alpha inhibitor
but It seems that I have similar symptoms to PFS.