Persorption Of Starch?

Parsifal

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Any amount of starch of pectin/insoluble fibers from fruits make me sick (flu, running nose), extremely tired and depressed with ADD. I have no appendix BTW. Even the raw carrot salad can be a problem if I eat too much of it and too often.
I had some issues when I was all fruits until I've started drinking a lot less fluids and eating way more salt. I believe that too much water can make the gut inflammed/swollen so that the endotoxins can go into the blood circulation easier.

I can find a peaches compote with only some added sugar in it for 2€ and it brings 600kcal. Not cheap, yummy and very high in copper, it is my main source of carbs.
 

Parsifal

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So how to detox already absorbed persorbed particules? How long do they stay in the body once they're there?

And how to heal the gut once it lets pass a lot of things so that you become intolerant to them?
 

Travis

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I just got done reading the Volkheimer study as well as the Freedman follow-up article called Persorption of Raw Starch: A Cause of Senile Dementia?

I also read this cool article on starch: The Other Double Helix—The Fascinating Chemistry of Starch

persorption1.png

So, two long starch chains actually form a double helix! Notice the 10.4 Å (angstrom) scale in the picture. The starch granule is multiple coils packed together with their axis parallel with eachother. The dimensions of the granules are as follows:
The largest granules are found in potato tubers, and may be 100 µm along the long axis. In contrast, starch granules in wheat are smaller, about 30 µm across.–Hancock
This is about 300,000 to 1,000,000 Å if you want to compare the size of the granules to each individual coil: 10.4 Å between turns and roughly 10 Å across.

At 140°F and in the presence of water, the double helix will unravel. You need water for this to occur. Amazingly though, gelatinized starch can rehybridize and recrystalize with time.

So stale bread can be more dangerous in this respect. This sounds unbelievable, so I had better post a quote from Dr. Hancock.
With time, the starch slowly reorganizes itself into a helical structure, at which point the bread is stale, and the process is known as staling or retrogradation. Presumably when the helical structure is reformed, the starch is less prone to attack by amylases in the mouth and so seems tasteless because sugars are not released. The helix also imparts greater rigidity to the starch, leading to the hardness of stale bread.–Hancock

In the presence of heat and water, the starch granule takes-up water and swells immensely. Hancock says that it can swell over 100 fold. This also sounds unbelievable so I'll post the quote:
Starch granules can increase in volume by a factor of as much as 100 on gelatinization, and this property of swelling together with the molecular-recognition properties of starch are key features in the cooking of foods involving starches.–Hancock

Now we know that Volkheimer did not use gelatinous starch.

We also know that the starch particles did not become gelatinous during digestion from the microscopic images:
persorption2.png

The "cross" that you see is birefringence, and due to internal order of the starch globule. Under plane-polarized light, the helical coils actually reflect light in certain patterns. The very presence of the "cross" on the starch particle proves that it is in its crystalline form: ordered and helical.
“At the onset of swelling, one sees radial cracks originating at the hilum. Coincident with the appearance of these radial cracks, birefringence is lost…”–Hancock

In raw plants, starch is crystalline. However, the presence of fiber likely slows down the absorption allowing enzymes dissolve the particle. I have a feeling that unripe bananas may not be so good though, based on personal experience.

Dry almonds always make me feel worse than the soaked ones. I think this could be from starch persorption.
 
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Wagner83

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@Travis , would you say gelatinized starch is safe but resistant starch or stale bread are to be avoided? Do you eat starch yourself?
 

Travis

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Gelatinized starch would seem unlikely to cause microemboli, but it is still fundamentally different than disaccharides and monosaccharides.

I think the main concern is with baked starch eaten dry like corn chips, potato chips, and crackers. Bread apparently gelatainizes, but you might expect the outer dry skin to be crystalline.

I think we all eat starch to a degree. There is starch in almonds (.74%) and I eat those. I think if I soak them the enzymes might hydrolize the starch.

6. Changes in Carbohydrates:
An increase in the activities of amylases and maltase during sprouting causes a gradual decrease in starch with a concomitant increase in reducing and nonreducing sugars during sprouting of cereal grains.
NUTRITIONAL IMPROVEMENT OF CEREALS BY SPROUTING
J. K. Chavan
Department of Biochemistry
Mahatma Phule Agricultural University Rahuri, India

He supports this assertion with 9 citations, so it probably fair to regard this statement as generally true. Here is a table showing a decrease in starch during sprouting:

starch.png


I am going to makes sure that I don't eat dry almonds anymore.
 
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Wilfrid

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I think that Volkheimer was fully aware that no persorption occurs with boiled starches.

In " Persorption of vegetable food particles " published in 1968, he clearly stated:

"Numerous foods when ready to eat contain masses of such persorbable starch granules. In particular, they are present in cereals in flake form (rolled oats, wheat flakes) in whole-meal, in crisp-bread, also in short-bread pastries, biscuits and cakes in which no milk or water is used in the preparation. Dry heat does not affect the persorbability of starch granules. Boiled starch granules lose their persorbability."
 

Travis

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I think that Volkheimer was fully aware that no persorption occurs with boiled starches.

In " Persorption of vegetable food particles " published in 1968, he clearly stated:

"Numerous foods when ready to eat contain masses of such persorbable starch granules. In particular, they are present in cereals in flake form (rolled oats, wheat flakes) in whole-meal, in crisp-bread, also in short-bread pastries, biscuits and cakes in which no milk or water is used in the preparation. Dry heat does not affect the persorbability of starch granules. Boiled starch granules lose their persorbability."

Yes he was, and I am sure he also knew they swelled immensely. Potato starch granules are the largest to begin with, and there is no contest after they get wet.
 
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Wagner83

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For the record the crust of a quality white bread goes straight to my sinuses. The effect is quickly noticed. I don't recall the same happening with boiled pasta.
 

Travis

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For the record the crust of a quality white bread goes straight to my sinuses. The effect is quickly noticed. I don't recall the same happening with boiled pasta.

I think it'd be interesting to try it with baking powder, as that could perhaps be a volatilized yeast metabolite or one of its enzymatic products (i.e. gluten peptide, diglutamine, cycloglutamine, etc.). Yet I think the fact that I can smell a bakery when driving past with the both windows shut argues against the latter possibility, and most characteristic fragrances derived from yeast are small-molecule furans. I would imagine the answer to this would be easy to come by because so much many is spent in improving organoleptic properties of foods. Does Subway™ use artificial 'bread fragrance' or is that only a rumor?

Schieberle, Peter. "Potent odorants of the wheat bread crumb Differences to the crust and effect of a longer dough fermentation: Intensive Geruchsstoffe der Weißbrotkrume Unterschiede zur Kruste und Auswirkung einer längeren Fermentation des Teigs." Zeitschrift für Lebensmittel-Untersuchung und Forschung (1991)

Bianchi, F. "Gas chromatographic–mass spectrometric characterisation of the Italian protected designation of origin “Altamura” bread volatile profile." Food Chemistry (2008)

The first study had used gas chromatography and had found hundreds of molecules, plenty of which were furans. However, they did not determine concentrations nor did they smell any of them. The second study had performed a smell test and had concluded that medium-chain lipid aldehydes, ketones, and alcohols were most responsible:

bread.png furan.png
 

nwo2012

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@Travis, How about corn chips made with masa flour? Does the nixtamalization break down the starch sufficiently. And does soaking oats several times, changing the water and rhen a long soak before boiling work sufficiently?

And another thought. French bread/toast is probably safer as it is soaked in egg+milk before frying. This should make the crust 'safer.
Those frogs are onto something.....
 
J

jb116

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And to add to that, I was thinking letting break fast cereal soak in the milk to sogginess seems to make it safe..?
 

Wagner83

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I think it'd be interesting to try it with baking powder, as that could perhaps be a volatilized yeast metabolite or one of its enzymatic products (i.e. gluten peptide, diglutamine, cycloglutamine, etc.). Yet I think the fact that I can smell a bakery when driving past with the both windows shut argues against the latter possibility, and most characteristic fragrances derived from yeast are small-molecule furans. I would imagine the answer to this would be easy to come by because so much many is spent in improving organoleptic properties of foods. Does Subway™ use artificial 'bread fragrance' or is that only a rumor?

Schieberle, Peter. "Potent odorants of the wheat bread crumb Differences to the crust and effect of a longer dough fermentation: Intensive Geruchsstoffe der Weißbrotkrume Unterschiede zur Kruste und Auswirkung einer längeren Fermentation des Teigs." Zeitschrift für Lebensmittel-Untersuchung und Forschung (1991)

Bianchi, F. "Gas chromatographic–mass spectrometric characterisation of the Italian protected designation of origin “Altamura” bread volatile profile." Food Chemistry (2008)

The first study had used gas chromatography and had found hundreds of molecules, plenty of which were furans. However, they did not determine concentrations nor did they smell any of them. The second study had performed a smell test and had concluded that medium-chain lipid aldehydes, ketones, and alcohols were most responsible:

Do you think there is a direct connection between something which inflames the sinuses upon ingestion and how potent it is as a fragrance? I wouldn't be surprised if Subfood did this, I can smell macdonald meal from miles away, it's part of the addicting plan customers don't just buy their meals, they advertise.
 

tara

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And to add to that, I was thinking letting break fast cereal soak in the milk to sogginess seems to make it safe..?
Cooking wet gelatinises starch. Soaking in cold liquid doesn't. I can't remember the exact temperature, but it might have been around 70 C.
So French toast should begin to gelatinise, cold soaked cereal probably not so much.
 

tara

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What about cereal in hot milk? How long would this take?
I imagine better but not fully? Probably depends on the cereal, the temperature of the milk, the volume and therefore how quickly it cools, etc ... Maybe you can get an idea of how well it works from the texture? Swelling massively is one of the signs.
 
J

jb116

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I imagine better but not fully? Probably depends on the cereal, the temperature of the milk, the volume and therefore how quickly it cools, etc ... Maybe you can get an idea of how well it works from the texture? Swelling massively is one of the signs.
Hmm, that's the thing though, when I leave it to soak even in cold milk, the cereal is definitely swollen and bigger. I want this to be so pretty badly lol
 

tara

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Hmm, that's the thing though, when I leave it to soak even in cold milk, the cereal is definitely swollen and bigger. I want this to be so pretty badly lol
I know, it would be so convenient, wouldn't it?
If it were me, and I cared a lot about it, i'd be thinking of doing a rough experiment with preferred cereal, something like:
Using the same quantities of the same type of cereal and milk or water, say my normal breakfast portion, compare:
1. cereal soaked in cold milk for 10 mins
2. cereal soaked in hot milk for 10 mins
3, cereal brought to boil in milk for 1 min, stirred and allowed to stand for 10 mins

And see what difference there is in the consistency - how much has it swollen, how thick is it , ...
Or something like that.
 
J

jb116

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I know, it would be so convenient, wouldn't it?
If it were me, and I cared a lot about it, i'd be thinking of doing a rough experiment with preferred cereal, something like:
Using the same quantities of the same type of cereal and milk or water, say my normal breakfast portion, compare:
1. cereal soaked in cold milk for 10 mins
2. cereal soaked in hot milk for 10 mins
3, cereal brought to boil in milk for 1 min, stirred and allowed to stand for 10 mins

And see what difference there is in the consistency - how much has it swollen, how thick is it , ...
Or something like that.
Yea I'm going to try it, with a conscious intent and really compare.
But this means I will have to open my fresh box of cinnamon pebbles made with sugar and coconut oil. I'll make the sacrifice.
 

tara

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But this means I will have to open my fresh box of cinnamon pebbles made with sugar and coconut oil. I'll make the sacrifice.
My guess is that by the time you've boiled cinnamon pebbles to a mush, you've probably lost the point of them.
May as well either enjoy them in cold milk as they are intended despite being suboptimal if they don't seem to bother you, or cook a good batch of rice pudding with lots of cinnamon and raisins instead. :)
 

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