Persistent Brain Fog And Fatigue When Metabolism Seems Good

sweetpeat

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This is a continuation of a conversation I had with haidut here: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=7243

Basically, I'm looking for help on why I would still be having fatigue and brain fog when thyroid is good. He suggested I get more lab work, so I'm starting a new thread and posting results here. I do have other lab numbers, but I figured these are the more pertinent ones. Most are in range, though on the low end.

TSH: 0.126 (morning lab, not fasting, no meds before lab) Is this getting a little too low?
T4: 5.9 (4.5-12.0)
T3: 154 (71-180)
reverse t3: 10.5 (9.2-24.1)

Serotonin: 149 (0 - 420)
prolactin: 7.7 (4.8 - 23.3
)

glucose: 101 (fasting level)
iron saturation: 28
ferritin 19 (15-150)

All of the below were done while fasting per instructions on lab requisition:
Pregnenolone: 18 (<151)
DHEA-s: 60.7 (41.2 – 243.7)
testosterone: 9.2 (7 - 40, post-menopause range)
cortisol: 16.6 (6.2 – 19.4)
progesterone: 0.5 (0.1 – 0.8, post-menopause range)
vitamin A: 40 (18 – 77; no supps 48 hrs before lab)

Total cholesterol: 191 (a bit low? Down from 215)
HDL: 60 (>39) Down from 68
LDL: 107 (0-99) High, but down from 124

Liver enzymes elevated, but falling (slowly).
Pulse is usually 85-90. Temps are usually 98.6+ by midday and into the evening, though basal temp is usually around 97.3. It seems like I should feel better than I do. In general, I feel better in the morning – tired, but clear-headed. As the day goes on, I generally feel worse. I used to feel better in the evenings too, but not lately.

Things I'm taking/doing: thyroid (t4+t3), progest-E (30-50mg depending on symptoms), vitamin A capsule (10,000IU 4-5 days a week), plus other vitamins/minerals I can list if need be, sunlight 4-5 days a week (it's summer here).

I could use some help on figuring this out. I'll admit that the brain fog makes it hard for me to see patterns and connect the dots.
 

Mittir

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Your T3 is higher than average, which is around 135. This is possibly increasing demands of nutrients.
I did not feel good when i increased my T3 intake via chicken neck soup. I felt energized at night and
drained next morning. Eating a lot of nutritious foods continuously helped, but it seemed too much work
eating all the time. Daily intake of liver is essential for me to feel food after increasing my metabolism.

Another possible source of brain fog is gut irritation. It could be the foods you are eating
or allergens in supplements. Endotoxin lowers liver's ability to store glycogen
and we need a good glycogen storage to support increased metabolism.
If you have problem metabolising sugar then it can limit energy supply.

10,000 IU of vitamin 4-5 days a week can be excessive.
I felt better after lowering my liver intake from 7 oz a week to 4-5 oz a week.
I suspect it was the extra vitamin A from liver and milk causing problems.


Vitamin B1 in small doses 5-10 mg helps me to feel energized.
I eat starch at least once a day and sometime twice a day. It clearly
causes me to feel agitated and anxious. Are you eating raw carrot salad daily?
I used to eat that daily, now i take 50 mg of tetracyline every 2-3 days on average.
I think thyroid hormone level alone can not compensate for gut irritation.

Red light therapy, earthing and bag breathing exercise ( if possible meditation)
have been very useful.

Total intake of alkaline mineral is very essential too. Low phosphorus with
adequate calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium is very helpful.

Some form of Free Fatty Acid inhibitor like niacinamide (50-100 mg 2-3 times day)
or Aspirin, if you are not aspirin intolerant, can make a huge difference.
Some all natural mixed tocopherol vitamin E is helpful as long as there is stored PUFA.
 

answersfound

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Mittir said:
Your T3 is higher than average, which is around 135. This is possibly increasing demands of nutrients.
I did not feel good when i increased my T3 intake via chicken neck soup. I felt energized at night and
drained next morning. Eating a lot of nutritious foods continuously helped, but it seemed too much work
eating all the time. Daily intake of liver is essential for me to feel food after increasing my metabolism.

Another possible source of brain fog is gut irritation. It could be the foods you are eating
or allergens in supplements. Endotoxin lowers liver's ability to store glycogen
and we need a good glycogen storage to support increased metabolism.
If you have problem metabolising sugar then it can limit energy supply.

10,000 IU of vitamin 4-5 days a week can be excessive.
I felt better after lowering my liver intake from 7 oz a week to 4-5 oz a week.
I suspect it was the extra vitamin A from liver and milk causing problems.


Vitamin B1 in small doses 5-10 mg helps me to feel energized.
I eat starch at least once a day and sometime twice a day. It clearly
causes me to feel agitated and anxious. Are you eating raw carrot salad daily?
I used to eat that daily, now i take 50 mg of tetracyline every 2-3 days on average.
I think thyroid hormone level alone can not compensate for gut irritation.

Red light therapy, earthing and bag breathing exercise ( if possible meditation)
have been very useful.

Total intake of alkaline mineral is very essential too. Low phosphorus with
adequate calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium is very helpful.

Some form of Free Fatty Acid inhibitor like niacinamide (50-100 mg 2-3 times day)
or Aspirin, if you are not aspirin intolerant, can make a huge difference.
Some all natural mixed tocopherol vitamin E is helpful as long as there is stored PUFA.

Yes. Definitely sounds like vitamin a is too high. Also needs to be balanced with d and k.
 

answersfound

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Do you have orange callouses and heels. Err on the side of caution with vitamin a. You may have hypercarotenemia which is blocking metabolism creating the fog. Just a guess....
 

messtafarian

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Messages
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If your liver enzymes are high then it could be too much ammonia in your blood. I doubt you have a sluggish metabolism since your T3 level is high/normal but you might be having trouble digesting protein. Do an experiment-- try eating a very low protein diet for one day. See if you feel better. If so then there are things you can do to assimilate your proteins better and scavenge ammonia.
 

fractal

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Sep 11, 2012
Messages
16
sweetpeat said:
TSH: 0.126 (morning lab, not fasting, no meds before lab) Is this getting a little too low?

Pulse is usually 85-90. though basal temp is usually around 97.3. It seems like I should feel better than I do. In general, I feel better in the morning – tired, but clear-headed. As the day goes on, I generally feel worse. I used to feel better in the evenings too, but not lately.

IMO, your TSH is too low. Mine got down to .12 and I couldn't stay up past 9pm. I stopped taking ( thyroid ) cynoplus a little over 2 weeks ago and am finally starting to get some night time energy back.( I also felt better but tired in the morning. )

Thyroid's a crazy thing. Sometimes it's exactly what you need and you feel awesome ( mental clarity, better digestion, weight loss ), but other times it makes you feel the way you do now. I wish I knew the answer :?:

Anyways, stop taking it for awhile and see how you feel. If your anything like me, you'll feel better than you do know.

Good Luck
 
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Messages
7,370
Have you tried a slice of beef muscle or liver?
 
OP
sweetpeat

sweetpeat

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Messages
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Mittir said:
Your T3 is higher than average, which is around 135. This is possibly increasing demands of nutrients.
I did not feel good when i increased my T3 intake via chicken neck soup. I felt energized at night and
drained next morning. Eating a lot of nutritious foods continuously helped, but it seemed too much work
eating all the time. Daily intake of liver is essential for me to feel food after increasing my metabolism.

Another possible source of brain fog is gut irritation. It could be the foods you are eating
or allergens in supplements. Endotoxin lowers liver's ability to store glycogen
and we need a good glycogen storage to support increased metabolism.
If you have problem metabolising sugar then it can limit energy supply.

10,000 IU of vitamin 4-5 days a week can be excessive.
I felt better after lowering my liver intake from 7 oz a week to 4-5 oz a week.
I suspect it was the extra vitamin A from liver and milk causing problems.


Vitamin B1 in small doses 5-10 mg helps me to feel energized.
I eat starch at least once a day and sometime twice a day. It clearly
causes me to feel agitated and anxious. Are you eating raw carrot salad daily?
I used to eat that daily, now i take 50 mg of tetracyline every 2-3 days on average.
I think thyroid hormone level alone can not compensate for gut irritation.

Red light therapy, earthing and bag breathing exercise ( if possible meditation)
have been very useful.

Total intake of alkaline mineral is very essential too. Low phosphorus with
adequate calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium is very helpful.

Some form of Free Fatty Acid inhibitor like niacinamide (50-100 mg 2-3 times day)
or Aspirin, if you are not aspirin intolerant, can make a huge difference.
Some all natural mixed tocopherol vitamin E is helpful as long as there is stored PUFA.

Mittir, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I was wondering if perhaps my thyroid levels were getting a bit high. I've been increasing slowly because my last TSH was 5.2, but I may have overshot a little bit going into the summer with all the extra sunshine.

It probably wasn't clear from my previous post, but I've had fatigue and brain fog for quite some time. A couple years at least. I assumed it was from being hypo. I had hoped that getting my thyroid levels good and metabolism high would result in better energy and cognitive abilities.

I've been doing a lot of the things you mentioned – keeping calories & nutrients up, getting sunlight, working on liver health and sugar metabolism. I could back off on the vitamin A. I recently increased it because of the extra sunshine I've been getting, plus some mild break outs on my face. I've been experimenting some with liver but haven't found a palatable way to consistently eat it yet. I could choke it down, but I'd rather enjoy my food, if possible. :)

I'll take a closer look at my supplements. Though now that I think of it, I've tried dropping them all (except thyroid) at various times over the years and adding them back one at a time. It's never made a difference. As far as thyroid hormones go, I've used Armour, Thiroyd, Cynoplus, Cynomel. They all seem to work at making my lab levels look good, but the brain fog remains.

I haven't done bag breathing in a while. I'll give that a try again.

I've also been taking cascara. Can that substitute for the carrot?
 
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sweetpeat

sweetpeat

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answersfound said:
Do you have orange callouses and heels. Err on the side of caution with vitamin a. You may have hypercarotenemia which is blocking metabolism creating the fog. Just a guess....

No, no orange here. I'm getting sunshine and supplementing K. I only recently increased the A, but can try backing off.
 

Aspekt

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Messages
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fractal said:
sweetpeat said:
TSH: 0.126 (morning lab, not fasting, no meds before lab) Is this getting a little too low?

Pulse is usually 85-90. though basal temp is usually around 97.3. It seems like I should feel better than I do. In general, I feel better in the morning – tired, but clear-headed. As the day goes on, I generally feel worse. I used to feel better in the evenings too, but not lately.

IMO, your TSH is too low. Mine got down to .12 and I couldn't stay up past 9pm. I stopped taking ( thyroid ) cynoplus a little over 2 weeks ago and am finally starting to get some night time energy back.( I also felt better but tired in the morning. )

Thyroid's a crazy thing. Sometimes it's exactly what you need and you feel awesome ( mental clarity, better digestion, weight loss ), but other times it makes you feel the way you do now. I wish I knew the answer :?:

Anyways, stop taking it for awhile and see how you feel. If your anything like me, you'll feel better than you do know.

Good Luck

I've been on thyroid for about two weeks now and while my temperature has improved, it's also made me lethargic, depressed and distant/disfunctional in my relationships. doesn't appear to be worth it for me.
 

Velve921

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Messages
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I have the exact same symptoms as you. I've been Peating for 1.5 years, things that I've noticed make a difference with brain fog:

Sucrose
Coffee cocktail:

8oz of coffee
1 tbsp of coconut oil
2 tbsp of gelatin
Sugar until I feel mental clarity


Coconut oil + fruit

My scientific understanding still needs more experience, but I notice every time I drop sucrose intake I feel sluggish and foggy, or if I workout too hard. During these times of low sucrose or excessive exercise I think my body is releasing stored pufa too quickly. You could easily be experiencing the same actions.

Thyroid, pregenenolone, progest e, aspirin, niacinamide, coconut oil, sucrose, coffee, liver I believe are a huge part of the healing process and creating protection from pufa detox. However, if your body is extremely fragile from previous pufa damage. You may have to really up sucrose and coconut oil Intake to decrease symptoms as body heals.

This info is coming from my personal experience. Also, I agree that gut irritation may be something to consider.
Also, I would consider eliminating all starches! I have found that starches can really cause major fatigue and fog.
 
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sweetpeat

sweetpeat

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fractal said:
sweetpeat said:
TSH: 0.126 (morning lab, not fasting, no meds before lab) Is this getting a little too low?

Pulse is usually 85-90. though basal temp is usually around 97.3. It seems like I should feel better than I do. In general, I feel better in the morning – tired, but clear-headed. As the day goes on, I generally feel worse. I used to feel better in the evenings too, but not lately.

IMO, your TSH is too low. Mine got down to .12 and I couldn't stay up past 9pm. I stopped taking ( thyroid ) cynoplus a little over 2 weeks ago and am finally starting to get some night time energy back.( I also felt better but tired in the morning. )

Thyroid's a crazy thing. Sometimes it's exactly what you need and you feel awesome ( mental clarity, better digestion, weight loss ), but other times it makes you feel the way you do now. I wish I knew the answer :?:

Anyways, stop taking it for awhile and see how you feel. If your anything like me, you'll feel better than you do know.

Good Luck

Welcome to the forum, fractal!

I admit I like your suggestion best of all. :D I would dearly love to be off the thyroid. I've never felt that great on it, except at the beginning. I've tried skipping a day here and there over the years to see what would happen. Usually I would feel a bit better for a day or so, but then my temps would drop even more and all hypo symptoms would get worse and I would get scared and go back on.

Over the last year, since applying Peat's ideas, I've managed to raise my pulse and temps (which thyroid alone never did very well). I had hoped that when I got my metabolism in a good place, the fatigue and brain fog would go away and then I could experiment with weaning off. But this has not been the case so far.

How much cynoplus were you taking and for how long? If you don't mind sharing. Did you stop cold turkey or wean off it?
 
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sweetpeat

sweetpeat

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UPDATE: It has been 21 days since taking any t4. I usually lower my dose in summer, but with such a low TSH (plus fractal's encouragement above), I decided to see what would happen if I just dropped the thyroid altogether. Well, almost altogether - I'm taking 1mcg t3 several times a day for a total of 5mcg or less. I continued the t3 because I have a history of under-eating and I was worried my appetite would drop and I wouldn't eat enough to keep up my metabolism. I also have constipation issues, for which I take cascara, and I was hoping the t3 would help keep things moving along. :D

For the first two weeks, I kept careful note of any hypo symptoms that popped up, as well as doing frequent pulse and temp checks. At first, I slowly developed more hypo symptoms with pulse and temp dipping a bit as well. About day 12, things started to turn around (except for the constipation). I've dropped most of the note-taking this week because I've been busier than usual, and also because things seem to have stabilized. This happened around the end of the second week, which coincides with the t4 half life. I'm curious to see what my thyroid levels are doing, but I haven't had time to get to a lab.

The big question is: Have fatigue and brain fog improved? It's hard to say for sure. I've taken on something this week that requires around the clock supervision, so my sleep is broken. Which takes fatigue and brain fog to a new level. :P I won't really know for another week or two when things return to normal. I will say this: Even though it's not gone, it seems as though I'm able to rise above the fog and push through a little better. A sort of better resiliency, I guess.
 

jyb

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sweetpeat said:
TSH: 0.126 (morning lab, not fasting, no meds before lab) Is this getting a little too low?

My experience is that TSH is almost irrelevant for judging health. I know high TSH is a bad sign - it's probably a good warning. But in the past I've achieved very low TSH yet my health was very bad. It seems to me perfectly possible to have TSH dropping from 10 to 0.01 without any difference in symptoms.
 
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sweetpeat

sweetpeat

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Thanks, jyb. I'll remember to keep that in mind. I agree that we shouldn't go by TSH alone. As mittir noted, I also had higher than average t3 levels. I'm continuing to track pulse and temps (which have been staying at the levels I mentioned above) and keeping an eye out for other hypo symptoms. If things start to deteriorate, I have no problem with increasing the dose. But so far, I feel just about the same off the thyroid as on it. Maybe a little better even.

I was taking thyroid before discovering Peat, and looking back at my lab work from that time it looks to me like I had a t4 to t3 conversion problem (highish t4 but low t3). My doctor put me on NDT because of my tsh, but I'm not really sure I needed the t4. I've been curious about what my thyroid could do on its own with the good metabolic support I've since learned from Peat. Doing it now seemed like a good time to try. I was taking the equivalent of about a grain of NDT. So not a huge dose.
 

tara

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I get brain-fog sometimes. As best I can make out, it is related to higher milk consumption. I assume some personal intolerance/allergy to milk proteins and/or difficulty digesting them thoroughly. I can have fatigue without brain-fog, but if I get too foggy, I'll usually feel lethargic too.
 
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sweetpeat

sweetpeat

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tara said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96081/ I get brain-fog sometimes. As best I can make out, it is related to higher milk consumption. I assume some personal intolerance/allergy to milk proteins and/or difficulty digesting them thoroughly. I can have fatigue without brain-fog, but if I get too foggy, I'll usually feel lethargic too.

Thank you for your thoughts, tara. I'm glad you've been able to pinpoint the source of your brain fog. Does all dairy (cheese, etc.) give you problems, or just fluid milk?

I've read stories of other people being able to tie it to something in their diet. I guess the thing that keeps me from believing mine is diet-related is due to the randomness of it at different times. It hasn't always been a daily event. Even as recent as this past winter/spring, it would come and go regardless of what I ate. Or anything else I did or didn't do. It's only been lately that it's become daily, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Why would it be worse as my metabolism has gotten better as long as I'm doing things that support a higher metabolism? This isn't directed at you, tara; it's a question I've been asking myself as I try to figure things out.

It could be liberation of FFA as someone above mentioned. It could be related to my pitiful levels of steroid hormones based on my labs. I'm willing to consider those ideas, as well as any others that people suggest. But for now, I feel the need to explore the idea that the exogenous t4 is at least partially involved. One interesting thing that has happened since stopping the t4 is that some slight pitting edema I had around one of my ankles is nearly all gone. So at the very least, it was causing some kind of fluid retention. I don't know if that is related to brain fog. :?
 
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tara

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halken said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96216/ When do you sleep? How long do you sleep for?

I was thinking about this too, after posting yesterday.
Other than milk, another source of brain fog for me is sleep deprivation, esp. if I've been startled out of deep sleep by and alarm etc. Also a very long sleep catching up after sleep deprivation can sometimes mess up my head too.
 
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