Permanently Fixing Hypothyroid Through Short Term T3

Discussion in 'Experiments' started by ecstatichamster, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. OP
    ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    I've found that I have to load up in the morning on T3

    There is a method I think advocated by Paul Robinson that advocates taking one dose early in the morning, like 2 hours before you wake up. But it's not that much, maybe 12mcg, and I don't like waking up early and then having to go back to sleep.
    Circadian T3 Method (CT3M or T3CM) for Adrenals-a great way to treat your low cortisol! - Stop The Thyroid Madness

    I am experimenting with taking 50mcg first thing in the morning after drinking some OJ. Maybe will settle on less, but when I didn't do this I couldn't get my temps up during the day.

    Then I will use Dr. Peat's "chew a little bit of the 25mcg tablet" during the day to maintain.

    Right now I'm at 99.1 or so, probably overshot it but that's okay.
     
  2. OP
    ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    I'll probably try the micellar casein to "time release" 25mcg or so during sleep. This may be the holy grail and maybe for a few days or so I can be at temperature and "capture" the temperature and then wean off T3 and not need it anymore (or maybe one more cycle.)
     
  3. Bushido1

    Bushido1 Member

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    @Elize

    Did you follow Wilsons T3 protocol?

    What did exactly messed you up?

    His protocol seem to work with lots of people and he even teaches other physicians how to use it in their practice.
     
  4. ilikecats

    ilikecats Member

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    The fact that he made up his own syndrome (that’s just hypothyroidism- the specific phenomenas he’s observed and felt the need to label as part of a syndrome have all been addressed and dealt with before by others) and named it after himself should be a red flag. Rays already identified and explained the phenomenon of slightly hypo people needing to take thyroid for just a few days and then it normalizes things and they don’t need to take it again. No need for a special protocol or time released T3 people have done that with NDT. And that’s a rare case that that happens, I’ve never seen that work for anyone on this forum. But it can be good to try new approaches and experiment I guess...
     
  5. Elize

    Elize Member

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    the body had a clock, and the clock was in this part of the brain called the suprachiasmatic nucleus or SCN," recalls Mitchell Lazar, M.D., Ph.D., the Sylvan H. Eisman Professor of Medicine and director of the Institute for Diabetes, Obesity, and Metabolism. "And the way we interact with our environment was that light hits our retina, which is part of the brain, the retina sends a neural signal to the SCN that more or less says it's light out or it's not light out. That helps to entrain the clock in the SCN, and then through the peripheral nervous system and the nerves, the SCN tells the rest of the body what time it is, so it's coordinated. That was the old model."

    In essence, rather than being ruled by one big clock whose bell tolls throughout the entire organism, every living thing is a clock shop, containing a multitude of timepieces ticking away in unison – but not always in synchronization.

    But it's not that simple. The SCN, about the size of a grain of rice and located in the middle of the brain in the hypothalamus just above the optic nerves, is indeed the neurological master clock in humans, governing the circadian rhythms that comprise the most important biological time cycle. Wired into the optic nerve, the SCN gets its cues about light and dark from the light receptors in the retina of the eye, then sends this information on to the pineal and pituitary glands and other parts of the hypothalamus. Hormones such as melatonin and cortisol are then released into the bloodstream to control physiological and behavioral responses such as body temperature and blood pressure, among many others.

    Yet the SCN isn't the only clock in your body. In fact, virtually every one of your cells contains a molecular clock that controls its functioning and interactions with other cells and tissues. The same is true of essentially all other living things, down to the simplest and most primitive one-celled organisms like cyanobacteria. In essence, rather than being ruled by one big clock whose bell tolls throughout the entire organism like Big Ben in the streets of London, every living thing is a clock shop, containing a multitude of timepieces ticking away in unison – but not always in synchronization.

    Just as rhythm is a fundamental part of music, it's also an essential part of life. But while it's quite possible to have music without rhythm, life is impossible without the presence of regular, recurring time cycles. There's the familiar 24-hour circadian cycle, which can be divided into diurnal (daytime), nocturnal (nighttime), or crepuscular (twilight) periods. But living things also follow other cycles: infradian (longer than one day), such as the human menstrual cycle or the migration patterns of some animals; ultradian (shorter than a day), such as sleep periods; and even cycles tuned to the ebb and flow of the tides. All living things dance to a variety of rhythms.

    Those rhythms and the clocks that keep them are not arbitrary or random but are an inevitable result of our evolution on this particular planet. "It's a robust biology that evolved as a function of Earth's rotation on its axis relative to a star every 24 hours," explains David Dinges, Ph.D., chief of the Division of Sleep and Chronobiology in the Department of Psychiatry and associate director of the Center for Sleep and Circadian Neurobiology. Ultimately, he says, "chronobiology is based on orbital mechanics." If we ever discover life on another planet with a different orbital period and different days and months and years, that life will move to those rhythms, its biological clocks set to an entirely different time from our own.

    Just as the elements that make up our bodies were once forged millions of years ago inside the hearts of exploding stars, we live by the rhythms of our planet and star. As Dinges puts it, "It's such a fundamental area of what it means to be a life form on Earth that it's difficult to imagine it not being involved in key ways to how we maintain our energy equation, our input-output equation, and therefore our health."

    As Penn researchers are discovering, that elemental connection between our biological origins on Earth and how we live and thrive concerns far more than when we sleep or when we get hungry. When things are out of sync or out of communication, the rhythms of life and health can be fundamentally disrupted.

    [​IMG]
    The illustration conceptualizes the expanded clock gene network, showing clock-influencing genes that are involved in a large number of biological processes. Dozens of molecular pathways are functionally interconnected with clock function and vice versa. Credit: John Hogenesch
    The 24-hour circadian cycle is the most important, because by definition it's the one we deal with every day. Sehgal has spent her career probing the molecular basis for that cycle, the so-called molecular clock, and how it triggers the need for sleep. She's managed to find some important pieces of the puzzle, including one of the genes involved in the molecular clock, and has identified some crucial signaling pathways that drive the circadian cycle.

    "I got into this field when I was a postdoctoral fellow at Rockefeller University, where we discovered the second animal circadian rhythm gene," she says. "There was only one known in animals before that." That was back in 1994, after which, she explains, "the field sort of took off. Mammalian homologues were found and the mechanisms started being worked out."

    Much of Sehgal's research involves the trusty fruit fly, Drosophila melanogaster. Although flies can't close their eyes like humans (nor do they dream, as far as we know), they sleep just the same, and Sehgal's lab has used the Drosophila model to find two genes also present in humans, timeless and period, that regulate the 24-hour cycle of rest and activity cycle and how the cycle is reset by light.

    Sehgal found that it was the levels of the timeless protein that varied with light and darkness. "The mechanism by which the clock resets in response to light is through reducing levels of the timeless protein. The protein's levels are high at night, low during the day. For many years people had known that if you shine light at night, you reset your clock." Meanwhile, the PER protein sets the length of the cycle. By tweaking the PER gene, Sehgal was able to actually alter the 24-hour circadian rhythm of the molecular clock to a 19-hour cycle. The experiment proved that, while it can be affected by light, the circadian clock is ultimately a genetic mechanism.

    "In all species now where mechanisms regarding the response to clock have been identified, it's always a change in the levels of what we call a clock component, one of these gene products," she explains. "Circadian rhythm by definition is something that can persist in the absence of environmental cues. So if something goes up and down with a 24-hour rhythm in a light and dark cycle, it's not necessarily a circadian rhythm, because it could be driven by light. Circadian rhythms have to persist in constant darkness. However, they can be reset by light, and they usually are synchronized to your environment, which is why you suffer from jet lag when you go from one time zone to another."

    As David Dinges points out, "Food intake, heat retention, heat loss – these are part of the body's basic energy regulation and then behavioral activity. And the circadian system regulates all of these."

    While the genetic mechanisms are complex and still not fully understood, it's not too surprising to think that something like our sleep and waking patterns would be intimately tied into biological clocks. Surprises have come on other levels, however. Sehgal notes that "in the past 10-12

    Read more
    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-06-clock-science-chronobiology.html
     
  6. Elize

    Elize Member

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  7. Bushido1

    Bushido1 Member

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    I think sometimes we are too blind by Ray Peat's ideas and we are not open to hearing other alternatives. Dr Denis Wilson has been helping people with their thyroid for 25 years now (after reading the work of Broda Barnes). He has taught 100s of other physicians how to help them with their clients hypothyroidism as well and he keeps doing it to this day.

    He even mentioned that at the beginning he started treating clients using T3/T4 with some success. Then moved to just T3 cytomel with even more success but still some negative side effects. And finally started giving slow-released T3 which seemed to be the most successful of all his protocols. So we are talking about someone who has treated 1,000s of clients trying different things and who has found the best way of doing things from trial and error.

    Who do you know in this forum that have tried following his protocol properly and failed?

    I am genuinely curious to hear about people having failures and successes from properly following his protocol, since I am planning on trying it myself.
     
  8. ilikecats

    ilikecats Member

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    @Bushido1 I don’t see how those are ray peats ideas, what I brought up was just a basic observation of reality (people recovering with T3 or ndt in a short amount of time) with a reasonable clear mechanism behind it. I don’t see a reasonable mechanism for Wilson’s therapy other than the fact that giving Patients T3 is helpful. There’s tons of endocrinologists whose (part of their) whole careers are based around prescribing t4 and they seem to be doing fine. Using T3 is a big step up, I have no doubt Wilson has helped some people. But good luck to you if you’re going to try this, who knows he could be right but I doubt it . Please share your experience if you complete it.
     
  9. Bushido1

    Bushido1 Member

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    I agree that the logic behind it is not as sound as I would like, but I think experimentation is more useful than theory in lots of cases.

    Anyways, do you know of anybody in the forum or elsewhere who tried it with or without success? Just asking for my own safety!
     
  10. Elize

    Elize Member

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    I tried the Wilson protocol and slow release T3 made me more hypo even though I do believe in his approach. Our bodies are just different. It will work out for some and not for others. I have found that I needed to look at clock rythms of the liver and kidneys to figure out how to get the positive effect of T4 rather than side effects. Still learning.
     
  11. Bushido1

    Bushido1 Member

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    Thanks for the feedback Elize. Were your TSH or temperatures lower after the protocol?

    Could you please explain how did you go about following the protocol? Dosages/types of T3? For how long? etc.?

    Just curious to know how and why you failed to learn from it.
     
  12. Elize

    Elize Member

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    TSH went to 47. Temperature dropped to 35.8 C. Even though I have no weight issues gained a lot of water weight. T3 convert to Estrogen with me. Then tried T3 circadian method TSH went to 57. Also have Celiacs and fillers were a problem. Compounding T3 also did not work for me. I had muscle wastage, tremors and electrolyte imbalance from T3. Now just using the Tirosint-Sol.
     
  13. OP
    ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    Wilson writes that the max dosage is I think 180mcg of T3 per day. I find that I need larger amounts than I would have thought, although not (yet?) this much.

    I plan to try to "capture" my temperature at 98.6 but if I can't I seem to be able to grasp 98 easily, and then I'll cycle off and try again for 98.6

    I do feel SO MUCH better when I'm at the "normal" temperatures. I am no longer draggy and tired.

    But I do have more muscle aches in a sense -- and I think this too is common early in this journey.
     
  14. Elize

    Elize Member

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    Glad it's working for you. Please keep us posted on your progress and how you feel. Would love to know.
     
  15. Bushido1

    Bushido1 Member

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    I am sorry to hear that your TSH raised so high. I hope you can find the way to lower it with time.

    While doing Wilsons treatment did you follow it by the letter? I mean started taking 7.5mcg of slow-released T3 every 12 hours and keep doubling it up until you hit 90mcg twice a day? Or did you do anything different?

    Thanks for sharing your experience.
     
  16. Elize

    Elize Member

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    Did follow it to T but at 50 mcg started having problems and dropped it
     
  17. OP
    ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    Dr. Peat has said that with T4 and/or T3, people who are hypo can get off the thyroid medication in 6 months or so.

    Dr. Wilson’s method lets people get off the thyroid medication much sooner.

    I’m sure both work. So long as temperatures reach 98.6 or so and waking temps close to 98.
     
  18. Bushido1

    Bushido1 Member

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    It is true that some people will get better on T4/T3, Dr. Wilson says he has seen around 60% success rate on T4/T3 and about 90% success rate on just T3.

    For what I am learning from Dr. Wilson, giving certain people T4 (even while on T3 at the same time) can be detrimental if they struggle to convert T4 into T3. With these people giving a mix of T4/T3 might not work at all because the extra T4 will inhibit conversion even more and this will dysregulate the thyroid system even further.

    For these people giving only T3 might be the only real option for treatment.

    To be honest, I can't think of what sort of people will do better on T4/T3 rather than just T3.

    I think for most hypometabolic people the issue is not that they don't generate enough T4, but rather not converting enough T4 to T3 (thus leaving too much T4 and rT3 in the system that is not being used and which inhibits the conversion even further).
     
  19. brix

    brix Member

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    Curious on your thoughts.

    TSH: 3.2
    FT4: 1.00
    FT3: 4.4

    So I have low ft4, high TSH and high FT3.

    Do you think t3 is a bad idea for my bloods? Or would a t3/t4 mix be better? Thanks.
     
  20. Elize

    Elize Member

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    I have Hashimoto and used T3 only method to clear reverse T3 had muscle loss then went so hyper bad tingling in my feet and legs, shakiness, muscle weakness and lost loads of weight. It was awful and still trying to recover from it. On Tirosint-Sol my TSH is now 2.3. I don't worry about the labs I just want to feel energetic and not soooo tired. Even when my TSH was 1 felt no better.
     
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