People Who've Lowered High Ferritin: What Benefits Did You Notice?

[gately]

I've had my ferritin climbing for a few years (currently at 339 ng/ml) so I'm going to begin regular blood donations, keep track of things, and see how they make me feel.

I have seen a lot of talk about de-ironing on this forum over the years, but I've rarely seen discussion about what specific benefits individuals have noticed from lowering their iron, especially if you had high ferritin. I'm curious if anyone here can directly attribute any symptomatic improvement from giving blood / iron chelation, and what those symptoms were?

Hype me up, you black-biled bloodletters.

 

[Andy316]

Hairloss :) now I just wear a wig whereever I go and eat whatever I want

 

[gately]

Hairloss :) now I just wear a wig whereever I go and eat whatever I want

I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding: you had significant hairloss from lowering your ferritin? Did you use blood donations?

 

[james2388]

Hairloss :) now I just wear a wig whereever I go and eat whatever I want

I think this is very true. The standard blood donation size is far too large at a pint. And to OP Ferritin is not the problem.. The problem is free unbound iron not in the serum aka simply free iron. Ferritin is also stored within ceruloplasmin, a copper based enzyme.

"It has been suggested that ceruloplasmin and ferritin in plasma work together to reduce the levels of free ferrous ions in plasma. Here, the ceruloplasmin catalyzes the oxidation of Fe2+ (ferrous) to Fe3+ (ferric), the form of the metal that binds to ferritin. Ceruloplasmin acts as an oxidant in this process."

And although this study is in rats, copper/iron/zinc respiratory enzymes throughout mammals are similar if not the same and this is where we can see inverse and direct relationships.
High-Iron Consumption Impairs Growth and Causes Copper-Deficiency Anemia in Weanling Sprague-Dawley Rats

And more or less it seems only an artificial diet would be able to provide a high iron imbalance because most copper/zinc rich foods like liver and oysters there is also iron. You find all three and it seems to self regulate.

"Zinc and iron interact competitively during intestinal absorption. When both nutrients are ingested simultaneously in aqueous solutions at levels commonly used in supplements, there is evidence that an excess of iron inhibits zinc absorption (1,2) and that excess zinc inhibits iron uptake"

Keep in mind that this quote means essentially nothing, as it's an artificially induced deficiencies, mentioning nothing of copper.

If your eating liver and oysters multiple times a week, you are getting a complete balance of these minerals. And if free Iron is high, you should be viable for micro blood donations aka a therapeutic phlebotomy as prescribed by a doctor. I think it's well worth looking into what people report after donating blood.

Most people are high iron, low zinc, low copper, from fortification and sub-optimal nutrient density.

 

[Andy316]

I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding: you had significant hairloss from lowering your ferritin? Did you use blood donations?

No blood donations, just had to cut out red meat and high VitC foods. James is right above, high ferritin could be a problem with ceruloplasmin, also could be Liver, Kidney, Diabetes related.

 

[gately]

No blood donations, just had to cut out red meat and high VitC foods. James is right above, high ferritin could be a problem with ceruloplasmin, also could be Liver, Kidney, Diabetes related.

Just want to be clear here: So you experienced significant hairloss from cutting out red meat and high vitamin C foods? And this directly lowered your ferritin labs? And you consider this a good thing?

 

[gately]

I think it's well worth looking into what people report after donating blood.

Precisely what I’m hoping to achieve with this thread, though specifically from people who had highish ferritin. (I’m not looking for anecdotes from people who either A - didn’t know their initial ferritin levels, or B - Had low ferritin.)

And thank you for your reply. It’s good to consider the potential damage excessive blood donation might have. I certainly want to hear from people who experienced a net negative from lowering ferritin, by any means.

 

[james2388]

Just want to be clear here: So you experienced significant hairloss from cutting out red meat and high vitamin C foods? And this directly lowered your ferritin labs? And you consider this a good thing?

I think I found your answer, again ferritin is just iron working like it's supposed to. Free iron is a major form of oxidative stress. As I mentioned earlier iron/copper/zinc self regulate.

Relationships between plasma zinc and ferritin with nutritional status in thalassemic children | Paediatrica Indonesiana
Relationships between plasma zinc and ferritin with nutritional status in thalassemic children

"Background Repeated blood transfusions in thalassemic chil-dren can lead to iron overload in the body. High ferritin level leads to low plasma zinc status because of their competitive inhibition.Previous study found that there was a correlation between plasma
zinc level and nutritional status."

Keep in mind you can have high or low ferritin, and high or low free iron. There are several iron blood markers. Donating based on just your ferritin marker, would be a 4-6 week stress on the body and a period small high after blood donation and then lows of depression and insomnia. Some people report suicidal thoughts, delusions, anxiety, insomnia is common. Not recomended or people with appetite or metabolic issues.

As I said artificially induced deficiencies are a problem, blood donation and blood transfusions. Here we can see high ferritin depleting zinc.
Possibly eating more zinc from muscle meat, oysters, liver, etc corrects high ferritin. As I mentioned self regulating. Supplementing will never create a sustainable approach.

 

[gately]

I think I found your answer, again ferritin is just iron working like it's supposed to. Free iron is a major form of oxidative stress. As I mentioned earlier iron/copper/zinc self regulate.

Relationships between plasma zinc and ferritin with nutritional status in thalassemic children | Paediatrica Indonesiana
Relationships between plasma zinc and ferritin with nutritional status in thalassemic children

"Background Repeated blood transfusions in thalassemic chil-dren can lead to iron overload in the body. High ferritin level leads to low plasma zinc status because of their competitive inhibition.Previous study found that there was a correlation between plasma
zinc level and nutritional status."

Keep in mind you can have high or low ferritin, and high or low free iron. There are several iron blood markers. Donating based on just your ferritin marker, would be a 4-6 week stress on the body and a period small high after blood donation and then lows of depression and insomnia. Some people report suicidal thoughts, delusions, anxiety, insomnia is common. Not recomended or people with appetite or metabolic issues.

As I said artificially induced deficiencies are a problem, blood donation and blood transfusions. Here we can see high ferritin depleting zinc.
Possibly eating more zinc from muscle meat, oysters, liver, etc corrects high ferritin. As I mentioned self regulating. Supplementing will never create a sustainable approach.

Still, there's obviously instances, besides hemochromatosis for instance, where blood donation will be beneficial. I'm going to contact some friends who know more about esoteric Chinese Medicine than I do, and see what they say about what diagnostics / symptoms would indicate the use of bloodletting.

I'll be very interested to hear if most people experienced mostly negatives from blood donation. I'm specifically asking for reports from people who knew their ferritin was high beforehand, though, because A- At least they had SOME kind of marker and target in mind, and B- It seems less likely they'd injure themselves with high ferritin, but maybe it's far more complex as you say. I'm sure it is. Still, let's hear dem anecdotes.

 

[james2388]

Still, there's obviously instances, besides hemochromatosis for instance, where blood donation will be beneficial. I'm going to contact some friends who know more about esoteric Chinese Medicine than I do, and see what they say about what diagnostics / symptoms would indicate the use of bloodletting.

I'll be very interested to hear if most people experienced mostly negatives from blood donation. I'm specifically asking for reports from people who knew their ferritin was high beforehand, though, because A- At least they had SOME kind of marker and target in mind, and B- It seems less likely they'd injure themselves with high ferritin, but maybe it's far more complex as you say. I'm sure it is. Still, let's hear dem anecdotes.

If you are worried about hemochromatosis your are going to have to get the full iron panel, which includes several markers. Hemochromatosis is the medical genetic condition. Iron overload is simply iron overload. Trust mean names matter because of ICD. Again high ferritin symptoms/ 'iron overload' can easily resemble a zinc deficiency. That's what I'm saying a self regulating system.
TCM is bollocks. Go with more labs, a 1/2 or 1/4 pint monthly therapeutic phlobotomy for 2-3 months, and eat regular liver and oyster meals with less calcium, like a one item meal to not compete with minerals.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I think this is very true. The standard blood donation size is far too large at a pint. And to OP Ferritin is not the problem.. The problem is free unbound iron not in the serum aka simply free iron. Ferritin is also stored within ceruloplasmin, a copper based enzyme.

"It has been suggested that ceruloplasmin and ferritin in plasma work together to reduce the levels of free ferrous ions in plasma. Here, the ceruloplasmin catalyzes the oxidation of Fe2+ (ferrous) to Fe3+ (ferric), the form of the metal that binds to ferritin. Ceruloplasmin acts as an oxidant in this process."

And although this study is in rats, copper/iron/zinc respiratory enzymes throughout mammals are similar if not the same and this is where we can see inverse and direct relationships.
High-Iron Consumption Impairs Growth and Causes Copper-Deficiency Anemia in Weanling Sprague-Dawley Rats

And more or less it seems only an artificial diet would be able to provide a high iron imbalance because most copper/zinc rich foods like liver and oysters there is also iron. You find all three and it seems to self regulate.

"Zinc and iron interact competitively during intestinal absorption. When both nutrients are ingested simultaneously in aqueous solutions at levels commonly used in supplements, there is evidence that an excess of iron inhibits zinc absorption (1,2) and that excess zinc inhibits iron uptake"

Keep in mind that this quote means essentially nothing, as it's an artificially induced deficiencies, mentioning nothing of copper.

If your eating liver and oysters multiple times a week, you are getting a complete balance of these minerals. And if free Iron is high, you should be viable for micro blood donations aka a therapeutic phlebotomy as prescribed by a doctor. I think it's well worth looking into what people report after donating blood.

Most people are high iron, low zinc, low copper, from fortification and sub-optimal nutrient density.

Not my experience at all. Lowered Ferritin from 444 down to near deficiency (tested 18 at one point), Zero hair loss (never been a problem for me), although some gray hairs did get a return in color from lowering.

The "ceruloplasmin" thing just smacks of something you got from Morley Robbins.

I still believe ferritin is the best indicator, E.D. Weinberg has suggested this, and lowering high or even high-normal levels of ferritin is always associated with positives in human studies.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Hemochromatosis is the medical genetic condition.

No, it's not. Hemochromatosis is Iron Overload. It was the name of the condition long before any genetic label was thrown on it. It was referred to as "Bronze Diabetes" back in the late 1800s.

"Hereditary Hemochromaosis" would be the Genetic Condition.

 

[gately]

If you are worried about hemochromatosis your are going to have to get the full iron panel, which includes several markers. Hemochromatosis is the medical genetic condition. Iron overload is simply iron overload. Trust mean names matter because of ICD. Again high ferritin symptoms/ 'iron overload' can easily resemble a zinc deficiency. That's what I'm saying a self regulating system.
TCM is bollocks. Go with more labs, a 1/2 or 1/4 pint monthly therapeutic phlobotomy for 2-3 months, and eat regular liver and oyster meals with less calcium, like a one item meal to not compete with minerals.

Ok, I can't force myself to pander to you anymore. Do you think you're being helpful right now? I honestly can't tell. When did I say I was worried about hemochromatosis? Also, you think you "answered my question" earlier when I wasn't even asking you a question, nor did you even remotely answer the question I was asking, which, again, wasn't addressed to you.

Listen, you're bad at reading context and are hellaciously unhelpful though I'm gathering you seem to think you are. You're just sputtering bad theory in a thread which was created for the collection of anecdotes for a pretty specific thing. I don't want to hear about your 'zinc deficiency' and cerulosplasmin ideas. Go be bad at reading, make blanket statements about Chinese medicine which are dumb, and generally Morley Robbinseque somewhere else.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Donating based on just your ferritin marker, would be a 4-6 week stress on the body and a period small high after blood donation and then lows of depression and insomnia. Some people report suicidal thoughts, delusions, anxiety, insomnia is common. Not recomended or people with appetite or metabolic issues.

I have never heard of any of this. What is your source?

I have donated blood well over 30 times now, and it's always been pleasant experience. Never experienced anything like what you claim, nor have I heard of others that have this. Blood Donation is a very straightforward procedure, and 1 pint certainly isn't "too much" for the average person.

They always do a quick physical beforehand, and check Hemoglobin. Of course, if you are underweight or Hemoglobin is too low, or you don't eat beforehand, I could see them causing some of the issues you mention. But the screening process basically eliminates that concern.

 

[gately]

Not my experience at all. Lowered Ferritin from 444 down to near deficiency (tested 18 at one point), Zero hair loss (never been a problem for me), although some gray hairs did get a return in color from lowering.

The "ceruloplasmin" thing just smacks of something you got from Morley Robbins.

I still believe ferritin is the best indicator, E.D. Weinberg has suggested this, and lowering high or even high-normal levels of ferritin is always associated with positives in human studies.

Thanks tankasnowgod. Any other positives you notice besides a return of hair coloring? How many blood donations did that take to go from 444 to 18?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thanks tankasnowgod. Any other positives you notice besides a return of hair coloring? How many blood donations did that take to go from 444 to 18?

It took about 7-8 donations (and about that many months) to get it "near deficiency," the 18 was a couple years later (and not exactly something I was aiming for), but felt great even when it was that low.

Basically, a great improvement in mood and energy. Also seemed to be able to handle carbs better, better insulin sensitivity, I guess. I mentioned a lot of this on the forum before, you can search those comments out if you want.

Chris Kresser's presentation "Iron Behaving Badly" is pretty good, too. He cites a lot of the iron lowering studies in it (like by Zacharsky and Fachinni and such), and they usually just use ferritin, and use a withdrawal of a pint of blood per phlebotomy. All of those studies are very positive, you can source them and read them yourself from that presentation. Weinberg's book is excellent, too.

 

[gately]

It took about 7-8 donations (and about that many months) to get it "near deficiency," the 18 was a couple years later (and not exactly something I was aiming for), but felt great even when it was that low.

Basically, a great improvement in mood and energy. Also seemed to be able to handle carbs better, better insulin sensitivity, I guess. I mentioned a lot of this on the forum before, you can search those comments out if you want.

Chris Kresser's presentation "Iron Behaving Badly" is pretty good, too. He cites a lot of the iron lowering studies in it (like by Zacharsky and Fachinni and such), and they usually just use ferritin, and use a withdrawal of a pint of blood per phlebotomy. All of those studies are very positive, you can source them and read them yourself from that presentation. Weinberg's book is excellent, too.

Thank you. Glad to hear they were only positive for you. Seeing some of your old posts on this topic is what got me interested in this self-experiment.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thank you. Glad to hear they were only positive for you. Seeing some of your old posts on this topic is what got me interested in this self-experiment.

The only notable thing was the first time, I was more tired afterwards. That's the only thing I would be aware of, schedule your first appointment on a day where you don't have much going on, or at the end of the day. But it was only that first time. The transient effects of blood donation are pretty well known. Each time was easier.

Now, I can go in the morning and go about my day. As long as you don't have anything seriously physically active going on.

 

[Jsaute21]

H

Not my experience at all. Lowered Ferritin from 444 down to near deficiency (tested 18 at one point), Zero hair loss (never been a problem for me), although some gray hairs did get a return in color from lowering.

The "ceruloplasmin" thing just smacks of something you got from Morley Robbins.

I still believe ferritin is the best indicator, E.D. Weinberg has suggested this, and lowering high or even high-normal levels of ferritin is always associated with positives in human studies.

How’d you lower? I just got a comprehensive blood panel. Most concerning result was off the reference range high ferritin.