People Have No Understanding Of Nutrition

[Arrade]

I'm very sad. Today I met a friend of mine, she has cancer. Now the cancer came back, she is really skinny, while in the past with the same problem she managed a normal weight.
I took some really good artisanal ice cream with me, she loves it. It turns out, she doesnt' eat sugar anymore. Because, you know, sugar feeds cancer.
So she is dieting. She is doing a kind of semi starvation keto diet, during chemio. She told me all the issues sugar gives, and guess what?
I didn't find the courage to say that maybe it's not so. I thought I could get things worse if I speak. Now she is really into it.

I don’t know anything about cancer or sugar, but maybe gently give her the advice you think you should. Don’t try to convince her but tell her what you genuinely believe

 

[3v@]

I just tried to say she could at least eat some fruits, but she said she found a doctor who practices keto (but not for cancer patients) and even if she feels like crap, she insisted so much the diet was "the one" and so did her partner. So I just thought, well, ok, if I say something more, like starting a real conversation about it, she will become more stressed, and she has to go under surgery next days. I'll try to speak with her after, during her recovery, a little bit here and there and see what happens.
But it's complicated. As you said, you must do it gently.
The fact is, sometimes nutrition's beliefs are more like a religion. You want to believe, you need to.

 

[charlie]

The fact is, sometimes nutrition's beliefs are more like a religion. You want to believe, you need to.

“It is easier to change a man's religion than to change his diet.”
― Margaret Mead

 

[3v@]

sad but true

 

[Aaron]

I just tried to say she could at least eat some fruits, but she said she found a doctor who practices keto (but not for cancer patients) and even if she feels like crap, she insisted so much the diet was "the one" and so did her partner. So I just thought, well, ok, if I say something more, like starting a real conversation about it, she will become more stressed, and she has to go under surgery next days. I'll try to speak with her after, during her recovery, a little bit here and there and see what happens.
But it's complicated. As you said, you must do it gently.
The fact is, sometimes nutrition's beliefs are more like a religion. You want to believe, you need to.

In her fragile state, I would make sure you are absolutely certain your dietary advice would be helpful for her condition before making suggestions. IME people jump the gun way too often when providing nutrition advice. I myself flip-flop on a day-to-day basis on various nutritional beliefs based on studies and my own experiences. I am glad you are looking out for her best interests though, you sound like a good friend to have.

 

[michael94]

We all do it

what show is ur avatar from

 

[opethfeldt]

We're all on a journey, I'm sure most of us have made poor nutrition choices before ultimately winding up on this board. In fact, I'd venture to guess it's a prerequisite for being here.

I seriously wonder what percentage of those on the forum were doing a keto or IF diet before they ended up here. In many ways, I'm kind of glad I got into IF, because I probably never would have found this diet had I not completely lost my health. This is because I was completely superficial then and, like most people, considered the success of a diet to be how much weight you lost from it.
On a related note, I experienced a similar situation to the OP today. My cousin is doing keto and is looking and feeling progressively more sick and lacking vitality. On the one hand, I obviously feel as though I could and should help her and offer advice, but the reality is, sometimes people need to fail in order to learn and no amount of good advice will help if they are not willing to listen. People are unbelievably stubborn sometimes, especially with regards to fad diets like keto that so many people have gotten behind. They prefer to follow the herd.

 

[Aaron]

I seriously wonder what percentage of those on the forum were doing a keto or IF diet before they ended up here. In many ways, I'm kind of glad I got into IF, because I probably never would have found this diet had I not completely lost my health. This is because I was completely superficial then and, like most people, considered the success of a diet to be how much weight you lost from it.
On a related note, I experienced a similar situation to the OP today. My cousin is doing keto and is looking and feeling progressively more sick and lacking vitality. On the one hand, I obviously feel as though I could and should help her and offer advice, but the reality is, sometimes people need to fail in order to learn and no amount of good advice will help if they are not willing to listen. People are unbelievably stubborn sometimes, especially with regards to fad diets like keto that so many people have gotten behind. They prefer to follow the herd.

What happened with IF that caused you to lose your health?
I did IF for a while and felt I gained a bit of health from it if anything, and it also got rid of my gynecomastia, but I was already in the process of gaining back my health by implementing a lot of healthy changes. Only thing IF might have done is thin my hair a tiny bit and make my brow bone a bit more prominent via collagen catabolism but it could have been caused by other things too. Also I think it drove my serotonin and stress hormones too high and messed up my mental state, because during my fasts I would consume a lot of herbs, spices, tea, workout supplements, and even flax meal.

You know what, now that I think about it, IF might have F'd me up a tiny bit and really isn't more effective than just eating on a 500 calorie deficit for a few weeks.

 

[opethfeldt]

What happened with IF that caused you to lose your health? I did IF for a while and felt I gained a bit of health from it if anything, and it also got rid of my gynecomastia, but I was already in the process of gaining back my health by implementing a lot of healthy changes. Only thing IF might have done is thin my hair a tiny bit and make my brow bone a bit more prominent via collagen catabolism.

IF helped me as well, for a time. I think IF could probably be done long term if you were to eat sufficient calories, but I was mostly using IF to lose fat and keep it off. It did a great job of that but also destroyed my thyroid, mental health and stress tolerance in the process. I had a great body but I didn't feel anywhere near as good as I feel now with a body that I consider to be far inferior objectively. Currently trying to slowly cut down my body fat down to closer to the IF glory days.

 

[Aaron]

IF helped me as well, for a time. I think IF could probably be done long term if you were to eat sufficient calories, but I was mostly using IF to lose fat and keep it off. It did a great job of that but also destroyed my thyroid, mental health and stress tolerance in the process. I had a great body but I didn't feel anywhere near as good as I feel now with a body that I consider to be far inferior objectively. Currently trying to slowly cut down my body fat down to closer to the IF glory days.

I edited my post a bit, my bad.
I think it might have done some damage to my mental health and thyroid now that I really think about it with my newfound Peat knowledge. I don't think I ever even thought about thyroid last year because I was still on the vegan-diet-prevents-all-diseases NutritionFacts.org train. And yeah, I was using it to lose weight but only very small amounts of weight because I was mostly targeting my gynecomastia while trying to build muscle, so my deficit was small, and it worked. An actual medical miracle occurred. I also put on muscle and also I felt like crap and my mental state was crap as well. Actually ruined a trip to Europe for me. However, in your case it might have been even crappier because you didn't even get to full refeed like I did.

Honestly, it's easy to lose weight by cutting 500-700 calories. The real key is to suppress your appetite using protein. A half-gallon of low-quality 1% generic milk will suppress my appetite for almost the entire day lol. A turmeric, collagen, and whey shake with aminos will make me never want to eat again.

 

[opethfeldt]

I edited my post a bit, my bad.
I think it might have done some damage to my mental health and thyroid now that I really think about it with my newfound Peat knowledge. I don't think I ever even thought about thyroid last year because I was still on the vegan-diet-prevents-all-diseases NutritionFacts.org train. And yeah, I was using it to lose weight but only very small amounts of weight because I was mostly targeting my gynecomastia while trying to build muscle, so my deficit was small, and it worked. An actual medical miracle occurred. I also put on muscle and also I felt like crap and my mental state was crap as well. Actually ruined a trip to Europe for me. However, in your case it might have been even crappier because you didn't even get to full refeed like I did.

Honestly, it's easy to lose weight by cutting 500-700 calories. The real key is to suppress your appetite using protein. A half-gallon of low-quality 1% generic milk will suppress my appetite for almost the entire day lol. A turmeric, collagen, and whey shake with aminos will make me never want to eat again.

I did do some form of refeed. Refeeds were heavenly on IF. My first refeed after a long period of caloric restriction blew up my muscle mass and made me look and feel better than I think I ever have. Problem is, it didn't last. As for my approach to weight loss now, I focus mostly on keeping estrogen low while keeping dopamine high. Androgens and progesterone are great for this. The way things are going, I may not have to restrict calories much to regain a respectable body. I feel better about my looks, now, so I'm enjoying the journey and taking it slow instead of expecting incredibly fast results that won't last long-term.

 

[Aaron]

I did do some form of refeed. Refeeds were heavenly on IF. My first refeed after a long period of caloric restriction blew up my muscle mass and made me look and feel better than I think I ever have. Problem is, it didn't last. As for my approach to weight loss now, I focus mostly on keeping estrogen low while keeping dopamine high. DHT and progesterone are great for this. The way things are going, I may not have to restrict calories much to regain a respectable body. I feel better about my looks, now, so I'm enjoying the journey and taking it slow instead of expecting incredibly fast results that won't last long-term.

Interesting. I've always found it quite easy to lose weight just by eating fewer calories and I've never had an issue with it. The calories in:calories out thing has always worked for me like a clock with few side effects. But I've never been beyond 18% body fat either. I don't really have much of an appetite most of the time which makes it easy to keep my 6'5" frame lean and muscular by mostly eating healthy protein-oriented foods in measured amounts - if I'm craving a candy bar, I'll eat it and my next meal is a whey shake. I do 2 month bulk cycles and 2 week cut cycles and even though I don't gain as much strength that way, I look fit all the time which is good for my mental state.

Btw, how important do you really think DHT is? I've been taking finasteride for 3 months now and while working out has kept me looking pretty good, I feel like I've lost a tiiiny bit of jaw mass and my skin seems like it doesn't look as thick and masculine. But I've also been taking it for the exact same amount of time I've been Peating.

 

[opethfeldt]

Interesting. I've always found it quite easy to lose weight just by eating fewer calories and I've never had an issue with it. The calories in:calories out thing has always worked for me like a clock with few side effects. But I've never been beyond 18% body fat either. I don't really have much of an appetite most of the time which makes it easy to keep my 6'5" frame lean and muscular by mostly eating healthy protein-oriented foods in measured amounts - if I'm craving a candy bar, I'll eat it and my next meal is a whey shake. I do 2 month bulk cycles and 2 week cut cycles and even though I don't gain as much strength that way, I look good all the time which is good for my mental state.

Man, never above 18 percent body fat AND 6'5. I got screwed genetically haha. I don't count calories anymore. I find such a thing to be neurotic and stressful. It's been my experience that hormones are the key to losing weight, though you can certainly do it much faster with caloric restriction. Beyond being worried about messing up my health again, I think my fear of caloric restriction partly stems from just never wanting to be hungry again. My period with IF pretty much gave me my fill of that. (No pun intended )

 

[Sobieski]

Man, never above 18 percent body fat AND 6'5. I got screwed genetically haha. I don't count calories anymore. I find such a thing to be neurotic and stressful. It's been my experience that hormones are the key to losing weight, though you can certainly do it much faster with caloric restriction. Beyond being worried about messing up my health again, I think my fear of caloric restriction partly stems from just never wanting to be hungry again. My period with IF pretty much gave me my fill of that. (No pun intended )

I hope you don't mind me asking, would you be able to share your experience with hair loss? Thank you in advance.

 

[opethfeldt]

I hope you don't mind me asking, would you be able to share your experience with hair loss? Thank you in advance.

Not at all. I started losing hair really young. I think it was probably age 15 when it started. I assume it was a result of a very stressful childhood filled with traumatic experiences. Interestingly, my hair loss peaked around 18 and never really got any worse. I had it grown out pretty long for a while and just styled it so it covered up the balding, but that obviously didn't work too well when there was anything more than a light breeze. Finally, I decided I'd had it and shaved it all off. It's been really great, actually. It's now something I never even think about. Sure, I'm aware my attractiveness has probably taken a hit but it definitely beats trying to cover it up. Since Peating, I have noticed a bit of regrowth. Nothing spectacular but I think progesterone was the cause of the improvements.

 

[Sobieski]

Not at all. I started losing hair really young. I think it was probably age 15 when it started. I assume it was a result of a very stressful childhood filled with traumatic experiences. Interestingly, my hair loss peaked around 18 and never really got any worse. I had it grown out pretty long for a while and just styled it so it covered up the balding, but that obviously didn't work too well when there was anything more than a light breeze. Finally, I decided I'd had it and shaved it all off. It's been really great, actually. It's now something I never even think about. Sure, I'm aware my attractiveness has probably taken a hit but it definitely beats trying to cover it up. Since Peating, I have noticed a bit of regrowth. Nothing spectacular but I think progesterone was the cause of the improvements.

Thank you for the reply. I started losing hair at 20. Paradoxically, my hair loss completely halted when my health was at it's worst. As my health improved, my hair loss accelerated. Like you though, I just shave it off. I'd rather have no hair and feel great than terrible with a full head!

 

[opethfeldt]

Thank you for the reply. I started losing hair at 20. Paradoxically, my hair loss completely halted when my health was at it's worst. As my health improved, my hair loss accelerated. Like you though, I just shave it off. I'd rather have no hair and feel great than terrible with a full head!

That's interesting that your hair loss halted with worsening health. I've had the exact opposite experience. Maybe when your health was worse, your testosterone was lower and thus estrogen was lower as well? I'm no expert on hair loss (you'd think I would be at this point) but I know estrogen plays a role and I have definitely noticed the most shedding in combination with symptoms commonly associated with estrogen such as prostate problems and puffy nipples.

 

[Sobieski]

That's interesting that your hair loss halted with worsening health. I've had the exact opposite experience. Maybe when your health was worse, your testosterone was lower and thus estrogen was lower as well? I'm no expert on hair loss (you'd think I would be at this point) but I know estrogen plays a role and I have definitely noticed the most shedding in combination with symptoms commonly associated with estrogen such as prostate problems and puffy nipples.

It's certainly possible, unfortunately I didn't get estrogen drawn when I was ill so I don't have anything to compare to. I'm glad you have some regrowth though, it would seem to be a very positive external sign of internal health to me. Good luck on your journey to health!

 

[opethfeldt]

It's certainly possible, unfortunately I didn't get estrogen drawn when I was ill so I don't have anything to compare to. I'm glad you have some regrowth though, it would seem to be a very positive external sign of internal health to me. Good luck on your journey to health!

Thanks for the encouraging words. I hope the same for you.

 

[Ktbridge]

I completely agree with not trying to convince others that I am on the right path. People try to tell me what I’m doing is wrong,but I just smile and do my own thing. The proof is in the pudding, I say. Whatever works for you.