Peating for animals

[Parsifal]

Lately I'm wondering wether applying Peatarians concepts to domestic animals would be a good idea?

Cats are considered as carnivores and dogs as omnivores so I wondered if they had enzymes to digest sugar for example and if this would be a good idea to give them salt, milk, or even coffee to help them energize their cells, live longer, be less stressed, etc?

My father always told me that giving sugar to dogs would make them become blind...

 

[XPlus]

I doubt that your cat would want to eat fruits, honey, coffee and salt.
It might have a bit of milk but if it isn't raw, it's likely to cause some digestive trouble.
I think cats are hardcore carnivores, although they may chew a bit of grass every now and then but that shouldn't be unpeaty.
I've been trying to implement Peat's concepts into my cats diet.
I try to give him the freshest, low PUFA meats most of the time, including some liver, hearts and kidneys and shellfish occasionally.
I mix some gelatin bone broth and coconut oil into his food.
This should take care of most of the Peatiness diet-wise I believe - freshness is a big one.

Sometimes I give him little bit of ice cream as a treat.

He used to eat a lot of bones when he was a kitten but seems to have quit this now - Not sure if calcium is something to worry about and whether eggshells are a good idea.
It would be interesting to find out if adding salt to his food is a good idea, too.

 

[Parsifal]

Thanks for the feedback with your cat XPlus, that's quite interesting!

How old is he? Are you feeding him like that since many years? How is he doing mentally and physically?

 

[XPlus]

post 108434 Thanks for the feedback with your cat XPlus, that's quite interesting!

How old is he? Are you feeding him like that since many years? How is he doing mentally and physically?

He's 1yo now. Seems like pretty happy cat for me. Much fuller hair and better aesthetics than cats on the street where I picked him up.
There were times when I experimented with cheaper/aged foods with him and I don't think it's a good idea.
The best regimen I found for him so far constitutes of fresh beef, mutton, chicken, fish and occasional liver, kidneys and hearts + some gelatin and coconut oil.
I sometimes use wet cat food for convenience - it's just difficult to find one without added PUFA.
Never tried the dry stuff. My friend uses the dry kibble for his cat.
He calls him Garfield. No wonder why.

 

[Godiva]

Fwiw, my dog loves my coffee. He's good about leaving our food alone for the most part, but I have to watch my coffee cup like a hawk. His tongue will be in my cup faster than I can blink. My husband refuses to put sugar in his coffee and the dog leaves his alone. Common advice is that caffeine is toxic to dogs, but I read that it's fatal at around 140 mg/kg. For my dog (great Dane), that'd be over 44 cups of coffee! That much caffeine would probably be fatal to me as well. I'm not certain if reasonable quantities are also harmful or if this is a case of "experts" dosing massive quantities and saying, "look, poison!" I've never noticed any ill effects from the small amount of coffee my dog gets on occasion (once he's stuck his slobbery tongue in it, it's his. )

I used to feed him a raw meat diet but he was too picky and refused to eat anything except store bought chicken. (Seriously, he turned up his nose at our home grown, pasture raised chickens) He wouldn't eat organs either, so I switched him to kibble. He does much better with that and it has a much higher carb content than his previous diet. It does have some added flaxseed oil but since it's beef/lamb based, it's lower in pufa than his self-imposed chicken diet.

 

[ThunderSpank]

Whenever I get the opportunity I feed our dog, cheese, butter, raw egg yoke, coconut oil, pork rinds, liver, and if she's interested honey and or some fruit. I have since her birth and shes lean, full of energy and has a very thick glossy coat! Unfortunately others insist that dog food and chicken is needed in her diet too

 

[honeybee]

post 108532 Fwiw, my dog loves my coffee. He's good about leaving our food alone for the most part, but I have to watch my coffee cup like a hawk. His tongue will be in my cup faster than I can blink. My husband refuses to put sugar in his coffee and the dog leaves his alone. Common advice is that caffeine is toxic to dogs, but I read that it's fatal at around 140 mg/kg. For my dog (great Dane), that'd be over 44 cups of coffee! That much caffeine would probably be fatal to me as well. I'm not certain if reasonable quantities are also harmful or if this is a case of "experts" dosing massive quantities and saying, "look, poison!" I've never noticed any ill effects from the small amount of coffee my dog gets on occasion (once he's stuck his slobbery tongue in it, it's his. )

I used to feed him a raw meat diet but he was too picky and refused to eat anything except store bought chicken. (Seriously, he turned up his nose at our home grown, pasture raised chickens) He wouldn't eat organs either, so I switched him to kibble. He does much better with that and it has a much higher carb content than his previous diet. It does have some added flaxseed oil but since it's beef/lamb based, it's lower in pufa than his self-imposed chicken diet.

Edit caffeine is toxic to dogs.
I gave my dog milky coffee for awhile and he developed digestive distress in the form of diarrhea. It's a bad idea even if he/she likes it.

 

[honeybee]

I give my dogs a little sugar on their food every day. They love it.
I also started them on small does of dhea. I am hoping it will help my older boy with arthritis and joint issues and also head off any potential future joint problems with my girl dog. My girl dog has lost a few stubborn pounds since I started her on it. They are both fixed and therefore probably hormone deficient.
I tried to feed milk and cheese for awhile but my old boy developed gas issues so I stopped . They get it occasionally as a treat.

 

[Godiva]

post 108532 Fwiw, my dog loves my coffee. He's good about leaving our food alone for the most part, but I have to watch my coffee cup like a hawk. His tongue will be in my cup faster than I can blink. My husband refuses to put sugar in his coffee and the dog leaves his alone. Common advice is that caffeine is toxic to dogs, but I read that it's fatal at around 140 mg/kg. For my dog (great Dane), that'd be over 44 cups of coffee! That much caffeine would probably be fatal to me as well. I'm not certain if reasonable quantities are also harmful or if this is a case of "experts" dosing massive quantities and saying, "look, poison!" I've never noticed any ill effects from the small amount of coffee my dog gets on occasion (once he's stuck his slobbery tongue in it, it's his. )

I used to feed him a raw meat diet but he was too picky and refused to eat anything except store bought chicken. (Seriously, he turned up his nose at our home grown, pasture raised chickens) He wouldn't eat organs either, so I switched him to kibble. He does much better with that and it has a much higher carb content than his previous diet. It does have some added flaxseed oil but since it's beef/lamb based, it's lower in pufa than his self-imposed chicken diet.

Theobromine is toxic to dogs.

Yes, and as far as I know the concern with coffee is in the caffeine. It does not contain theobromine like chocolate does.

"Theobromine: all coffees tested in this study didn’t show any theobromine." http://www.bioprofilelabs.com/Theobromi ... tCocoa.htm

 

[honeybee]

post 108585

post 108532 Fwiw, my dog loves my coffee. He's good about leaving our food alone for the most part, but I have to watch my coffee cup like a hawk. His tongue will be in my cup faster than I can blink. My husband refuses to put sugar in his coffee and the dog leaves his alone. Common advice is that caffeine is toxic to dogs, but I read that it's fatal at around 140 mg/kg. For my dog (great Dane), that'd be over 44 cups of coffee! That much caffeine would probably be fatal to me as well. I'm not certain if reasonable quantities are also harmful or if this is a case of "experts" dosing massive quantities and saying, "look, poison!" I've never noticed any ill effects from the small amount of coffee my dog gets on occasion (once he's stuck his slobbery tongue in it, it's his. )

I used to feed him a raw meat diet but he was too picky and refused to eat anything except store bought chicken. (Seriously, he turned up his nose at our home grown, pasture raised chickens) He wouldn't eat organs either, so I switched him to kibble. He does much better with that and it has a much higher carb content than his previous diet. It does have some added flaxseed oil but since it's beef/lamb based, it's lower in pufa than his self-imposed chicken diet.

Theobromine is toxic to dogs.

Yes, and as far as I know the concern with coffee is in the caffeine. It does not contain theobromine like chocolate does.

"Theobromine: all coffees tested in this study didn’t show any theobromine." http://www.bioprofilelabs.com/Theobromi ... tCocoa.htm

You are correct .I meant to type caffeine. I updated my post.

 

[Godiva]

Technically caffeine is toxic to humans as well as it can be fatal in sufficient quantities and also cause gastric distress in lower amounts. I would be extremely cautious of giving a small dog coffee as it would be very easy to overdose with small quantities. A dog the size of mine (the size of a small human) would require as much caffeine to be fatal as it would take to kill/severely harm a human. Is it really more toxic for them, or is it the generally lower body weights which make it easier to overdose? The most my dog has ever had at a time is about 5oz of coffee. He's never had any gastric distress from it. I can't tell if it has any benefit either because he's 2 and hyperactive 24/7 regardless.

 

[Giraffe]

post 108628 Is it really more toxic for them, or is it the generally lower body weights which make it easier to overdose?

According to the information in this case study LD50 for dogs is 140 mg/kg (range 120-200 mg/kg).

"The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is estimated to be 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass (75–100 cups of coffee for a 70 kilogram adult)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

 

[honeybee]

post 108628 Is it really more toxic for them, or is it the generally lower body weights which make it easier to overdose?

According to the information in this case study LD50 for dogs is 140 mg/kg (range 120-200 mg/kg).

"The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is estimated to be 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass (75–100 cups of coffee for a 70 kilogram adult)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

My boy isn't small he's 75 pounds the size of a human child. The coffee didn't agree with him. But it doesn't have to reach toxic amounts to make him feel bad. Just my experience giving my dog coffee. :2cents

 

[Such_Saturation]

Caffeine turns into theobromine in humans at least.

 

[Godiva]

post 108628 Is it really more toxic for them, or is it the generally lower body weights which make it easier to overdose?

According to the information in this case study LD50 for dogs is 140 mg/kg (range 120-200 mg/kg).

"The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is estimated to be 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass (75–100 cups of coffee for a 70 kilogram adult)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

Those values are pretty close and even have some overlap. That seems to mean that it has close to the same toxicity for dogs as it does for humans. In small enough quantities to avoid the dog not feeling well from it, could it also have the same benefits as it does for humans? I can only tolerate a few cups of coffee before it starts to mess with my insides and make me feel unwell, but that smaller amount does have definite benefits.

This: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/quest ... d-for-dogs states that the LD50 for both theobromine and caffeine is roughly the same (100-200 mg/kg) and that theobromine has a clinical symptom threshold of roughly 20mg/kg. I would guess that caffeine has a similar symptom threshold. My dog at 50kg bodyweight could consume about 1,000mg of caffeine before exhibiting symptoms. Based on strength, that's roughly 10 cups of coffee. Theobromine is more dangerous because of it's longer half-life. (17.5 hours vs 4.5 hours for caffeine) It's much easier to build up to dangerous level. Also, purer forms of chocolate have higher concentrations of theobromine than coffee does caffeine.

I tried to find out if caffeine also converts to theobromine in dogs. I found this pretty thorough article on chocolate and dogs. They mention the 10% conversion in humans but say nothing about conversion in dogs. http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php ... -for-dogs/ If it does convert the same in dogs, that same 1,000 mg "safe" dose of caffeine would convert to about 100mg theobromine. A much more conservative dose of 100mg caffeine would convert to 10mg theobromine- a negligible amount. Everything I've read indicated that neither substance builds up in the body or causes long term liver or kidney damage. If it's low enough to be processed without symptoms, there is no damage.