Peatarian without supplements?

Dave H

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I'm new to the forum. Here's my dilemma. Following Ray Peat's dietary guidelines, such as they are, I had some striking positive results (e.g., a tendinosis or chronic inflammation of my right knee and a minor inflammatory tendency in my right pinkie both disappeared within 3 days and have not returned now in a couple of months). I am, however, averse to taking any supplements. Have been healthy (until this probably age-linked inflammatory tendency) all my life. Have not been to a doctor in 40 years. Never took so much as an aspirin. I prefer to do what I need to do for my body entirely through diet or behavior (sunlight, outdoor work). My pulse is only 60 bpm and even my temps are slightly below normal, but I feel fine. So why bother with supplements? I sense that my cellular metabolism is not anaerobic at this point and is not creating lactic acid or other proinflammatory substances.

What really prompted this posting is my use of salt to sleep better at night and being struck at how uncharacteristically sleepy I can get even during the day if I overdo the salt. This fascinates me and I'm trying to understand it. I understand that it is increasing my blood volume and so turning off the renin and the adrenal gland. So is this sleepiness my natural metabolic state, without the stress hormones? But if my energy depends on the stress hormones, why the low pulse rate? Again, once I cut back the salt a bit, my energy levels are normal and fine for me.

It is an interesting question and I think it goes to the heart of Ray Peat's work.

A secondary question: The high CO2 Ray advocates seems to produce a lower heart rate in yogis and cave-dwelling animals. (I lived in India for over 10 years and practiced meditation for decades, though not pranayam, and I think I probably have a high CO2 level in my body.) How does this jibe with the high metabolism and high pulse that Ray Peat seems to advocate?

Perhaps I should be running this questions by Ray Peat himself, but I thought I'd run them by the forum first.
 
J

j.

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Dave H said:
kA secondary question: The high CO2 Ray advocates seems to produce a lower heart rate in yogis and cave-dwelling animals. (I lived in India for over 10 years and practiced meditation for decades, though not pranayam, and I think I probably have a high CO2 level in my body.) How does this jibe with the high metabolism and high pulse that Ray Peat seems to advocate?

Ray Peat advises to keep adrenaline low. How is that consistent with keeping a high pulse, since adrenaline increases the pulse?
 

Jenn

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There is no reason to take supplements if you are able to get the nutrients you need from your food.

Personally, I use supplements to accelerate repair work and to correct nutrient deficiencies in the food available to me. For example, supplementing aspirin, sugar and potassium to compensate for less than tree/vine ripe fruit.
 

RayOfHope

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Jenn said:
I use supplements to accelerate repair work and to correct nutrient deficiencies in the food available to me. For example, supplementing aspirin, sugar and potassium to compensate for less than tree/vine ripe fruit.

Jenn, how do you supplement potassium? Also, if you don't mind, could you explain why aspirin is needed to help compensate for fruit? It isn't making a direct connection in my mind so now I'm curious.
 
J

j.

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RayOfHope said:
could you explain why aspirin is needed to help compensate for fruit? It isn't making a direct connection in my mind so now I'm curious.

Some fruits are high in salicylic acid, which has many benefits.
 

charlie

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j. said:
RayOfHope said:
could you explain why aspirin is needed to help compensate for fruit? It isn't making a direct connection in my mind so now I'm curious.

Some fruits are high in salicylic acid, which has many benefits.

According to Ray Peat via Beebop who asked Ray Peat about salicylic acid in fruit:

Ray Peat said:
Fruits contain almost no salicylic acid.

Determination of Acetylsalicylic Acid and Salicylic Acid in Foods, Using HPLC with Fluorescence Detection
J. Agric. Food Chem., 1996, 44 (7), pp 1762–1767
We developed a specific and sensitive HPLC method with fluorescence detection for the determination of free acetylsalicylic acid, free salicylic acid, and free salicylic acid plus salicylic acid after alkaline hydrolysis (free-plus-bound) in foods. Acetylsalicylic acid was detected after postcolumn hydrolysis to salicylic acid. With the method for free acetylsalicylic acid and salicylic acid, recovery was 95−98% for acetylsalicylic acid added to foods and 92−102% for salicylic acid. Recovery of added salicylic acid was 79−94% for the free-plus-bound salicylic acid method. The limit of detection was 0.02 mg/kg for fresh and 0.2 mg/kg for dried foods for all substances. We did not find acetylsalicylic acid in any of 30 foods previously thought to be high in salicylates. The contents of free-plus-bound salicylic acid and of free salicylic acid ranged from 0 to 1 mg/kg in vegetables and fruits and from 3 to 28 mg/kg in herbs and spices. Thus the tested foods did not contain acetylsalicylic acid and only small amounts of salicylic acid. Our data suggest that the average daily intake of acetylsalicylic acid from foods is nil and that of salicylic acid is 0−5 mg/day.

Source
 
J

j.

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According to Ray Peat's article about aspirin, if we had good fruits, we wouldn't need aspirin.
 

4peatssake

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This is odd as in his article, he writes:

Ray Peat said:
Aspirin rapidly breaks down into acetic acid and salicylic acid (which is found in many fruits), and salicylic acid is protective to the stomach and intestine, and other organs.
Aspirin, brain, and cancer
 

charlie

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Yeh, I thought it was odd too so that's why I brought it back up.
 
J

j.

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I don't think it's odd, some fruits have salicylic acid, but a lot have very little.
 

Mittir

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All the things you mentioned about salt lowering Renin, Aldesterone is true.
But salt is involved in so many other factors it is difficult to know which factor
is working here. Increasing salt can increase your retention of magnesium, that
can give a sleepy relaxed feeling. Not having deep resting
sleep can increase stress hormone and disturb many other things
Salt works against stress hormones,increases co2'
increases metabolism. RP commented with improving thyroid function one may need
to take a nap in the day. Salt also interacts with calcium, PTH,
Albumin,blood sugar. RP recommends 7-8 hours of sleep.
Did you drink milk with 2-3 tbs of sugar before bed.
If you do not have good storage of glycogen, you will be having
high stress hormone during large part of the night, even when you are
able to sleep. This can make you feel tired rest of the day.
He discussed salt in brief at around 60 min of josh rubin interview
and nother hour long interview with KMUD on salt.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... io-q-and-a
http://eastwesthealing.com/ray-peat/
 

Dave H

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Aug 1, 2013
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Thanks, Mittir, for your thoughts. It's very helpful. I particularly like the idea that we may need to take naps when our metabolism improves.

I do drink milk with honey before bed but the salt really deepens my sleep remarkably. The relaxed, mellow, even pleasantly sleepy feeling during the day after taking more salt reminds me of living near the ocean on vacation. Doubtless the salt air increases our salt levels and gives us those wonderfully relaxing sleeps.

My sleep since eating Peatarian has become much more restful and deep. Am very aware now of the stress that I had grown used to before my intro to Ray Peat.
 

juanitacarlos

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Dec 31, 2012
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417
Dave H said:
What really prompted this posting is my use of salt to sleep better at night and being struck at how uncharacteristically sleepy I can get even during the day if I overdo the salt. This fascinates me and I'm trying to understand it. I understand that it is increasing my blood volume and so turning off the renin and the adrenal gland. So is this sleepiness my natural metabolic state, without the stress hormones? But if my energy depends on the stress hormones, why the low pulse rate? Again, once I cut back the salt a bit, my energy levels are normal and fine for me.

I don't know if your sleepiness is your natural state, but just the state you are in right now. I think when you start "Peating", you get really exposed for the state you are in. I get tired after pretty much every meal, which signals to me that I'm using stress hormones pretty much most of the day. Not a good state to be in.

As for the low pulse rate, that could just indicate a low thyroid state. Whats your temps like? Do you have any low thyroid symptoms?
 

4peatssake

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Lita Lee said:
It is better to drink fruit juices and eat the whole vegetable than to drink vegetable juices. In fact, all vegetable juices are anti-thyroid because juicing concentrates the toxic polyunsaturated oils (PUFAs or omega-3 and -6 oils) and takes away the protection of the fiber. Fruit juices, on the other hand, contain nearly zero unsaturated oils and are high in salicylates (as is aspirin) so they are very anti-inflammatory.
Source

So is it that fruit juice is high in salicylic acid but not the fruit itself?
 

pyttsan

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Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
38
Mittir said:
All the things you mentioned about salt lowering Renin, Aldesterone is true.
But salt is involved in so many other factors it is difficult to know which factor
is working here. Increasing salt can increase your retention of magnesium, that
can give a sleepy relaxed feeling. Not having deep resting
sleep can increase stress hormone and disturb many other things
Salt works against stress hormones,increases co2'
increases metabolism. RP commented with improving thyroid function one may need
to take a nap in the day. Salt also interacts with calcium, PTH,
Albumin,blood sugar. RP recommends 7-8 hours of sleep.
Did you drink milk with 2-3 tbs of sugar before bed.
If you do not have good storage of glycogen, you will be having
high stress hormone during large part of the night, even when you are
able to sleep. This can make you feel tired rest of the day.
He discussed salt in brief at around 60 min of josh rubin interview
and nother hour long interview with KMUD on salt.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... io-q-and-a
http://eastwesthealing.com/ray-peat/

Doesn't salt also inhibit nitric oxide? Wouldn't this be a bad thing?
 

Gabriel

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May 7, 2013
Messages
229
"Nitric oxide has recently been identified as another parasympathetic “transmitter.” Nitric oxide and histamine are both very important factors in degenerative inflammatory diseases, but their association with the parasympathetic nervous system has given them an aura of benevolence." -RP

http://raypeat.com/articles/other/auton ... tems.shtml
 

Beebop

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Jan 27, 2013
Messages
289
Hi, he sent me the study about fruit not having salicylic acid quite recently - (more recently than he wrote the aspirin article). I was asking him if I might have an intolerance to salicylic acid because I was reacting to fruits.

"Fruits contain almost no salicylic acid."
RP
 

Dave H

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Thread starter
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Aug 1, 2013
Messages
7
Well, I found an answer to my question (regarding the sedative effect of salt) in a few of Ray Peat's articles:

Here are a few RP quotes from the following articles: "Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging" (hereafter "Water"); "Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity" ("Salt"); and "When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc." ("Edema").

[highlight=#ffff40]The sleep-inducing effect of salty food is probably related to the anti-excitatory effects of hyper-osmolarity, of adequate thyroid function, and of carbon dioxide.[/highlight]
-----""Water", p. 7

See the full article for RP's explanation of hyperosmolarity. In a nutshell, a low-sodium diet will cause the cells to swell with water, and to take in too much calcium; this excites the cells (and disturbs the restfulness of our sleep!).

[highlight=#ffff40]The loss of sodium is often accompanied by the retention of water, reducing the osmotic pressure of the body fluids. The leakiness of blood vessels allows the extracellular fluid volume in increase, as understood in the standard definition of edema. However, when this fluid is hypo-osmotic, it will enter cells, causing them to swell. Cell swelling excites cells (Ayus et al., 2008; Baxter et al., 1991), and can kill them if they are unable to produce enough energy to restore their original volume.... Both low sodium (hyponatremia) and low osmotic pressure stimulate the adrenergic nervous system.[/highlight]
------"Edema," p. 6

Here are a few other random quotes from these articles:

[Regarding thyroid hormone, but in the context of its action being enhanced by sodium and hyperosmolarity] [highlight=#ffff40]... its most noticeable effect is in improving the ability to relax, including the ability to sleep soundly and restfully.[/highlight]
------"Water", p. 7

[Why the reflexes are slower in hypothyroidism:] [highlight=#ffff40]... the evidence is clear that hypothyroidism causes swelling in the nerves themselves. For example, in hypothyroidism, nerves are slow to respond to stimulation, and their conduction of the impulse is slow. These changes are the same as those produced by hyper-hydration by other means.[/highlight]
----"Water", p. 6

[highlight=#ffff40]Darkness or hypothyroidism [can make] cells more susceptible to stress. A promoter of excitotoxicity, oubain, or a lack of salt, can function as the equivalent of darkness.[/highlight]
----"Water", p. 8

[highlight=#ffff40]When too much calcium enters a cell it activates many enzymes, prevents muscle and nerve cells from relaxing, and ultimately kills the cell....
Increasing the concentration of sodium increases the energy consumption and carbon dioxide production of the cell. The sodium, by increasing carbon dioxide production, protects against the excitatory, toxic effects of intracellular calcium....

[Regarding resuscitating people and animals after injury with hypertonic saline solutions:] Rather than just increasing blood volume to restore circulation, the hypertonic sodium restores cellular energy production, increasing oxygen consumption and heat production while reducing free radical production, improves the contraction and relaxation of the heart muscle, and reduces inflammation, vascular permeability, and edema.[/highlight]
----"Salt", p. 5

[highlight=#ffff40]When rats are given 0.9 percent sodium chloride solution with their regular food, their heat production increases, and their body fat, including abdominal fat, decreases (Bryant et al., 1984). These responses to increased dietary sodium are immediate. Part of the effect of sodium involves regulatory processes in the brain, which are sensitive to the ratio between sodium and calcium. Deceasing sodium, or increasing calcium, causes the body's metabolism to shift away from thermogenesis and accelerated respiration.

Regulating intracellular calcium by increasing the production of carbon dioxide is probaby a basic mechanism in sodium's protection against inflammation and excitatory cell damage and degeneration.[/highlight]
-----"Salt", p. 7

[highlight=#ffff40]Activation of heat production and increased body temperature might account for some of the GABA-like sedative effects of increased sodium. Increasing GABA in the brain increases brown fat heat production (Horton et al., 1988). Activation of heat production by brown fat increases slow wave sleep (Dewasmes et al, 2003), the loss of which is characteristic of aging....

Now that inflammation is recognized as having a central role in the degenerative diseases, the fact that renin, angiotensin, and aldosterone all contribute to inflammation are are increased by a sodium deficiency, should arouse interest in exploring the therapeutic uses of sodium supplementation.[/highlight]
----"Salt", p. 8

Now that's a supplement I can get behind!

Since I'm thinking salt and sodium these days, I've been trying to figure out how Peat's ideas can help my male Scottie, who has advanced prostate cancer. He is taking a COX-2 inhibitor (a NSAID similar to aspirin in its suppressing prostaglandin production, but without aspirin's side effects on the GI tract and blood), but I wondered about salt as a way to reduce the swelling he has (apart from the cancer). Unlike our sheep and chickens (we have a small farm), who absolutely crave salt, he is not in the least interested in it. Doubtless because his ancestors were predators and got their salt through the blood of their prey. So he lacks the instinct to seek out salt. So am putting it in his food, which he's eating without a problem.
 
J

j.

Guest
Dave H said:
Doubtless because his ancestors were predators and got their salt through the blood of their prey. So he lacks the instinct to seek out salt. So am putting it in his food, which he's eating without a problem.

If he had the choice of two plates, one salted, the other without salt, which would he eat? Probably both?
 
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