Peat Very Wrong On Lactic Acid / Yogurt?

[gaze]

is anyone familiar with the work of Elie Metchnikoff, who theorized the lactic acid in yogurt is the best way to kill bacteria in the intestine and prevent putrefaction?

 

[Broken man]

I am big eater of youghurt And kefir, according to my experience, it all depends on the bacteria used, I can eat some brands without sugar while other brands give me bad headache. Because I am from Europe, we are always eating yogurt with berries or something like this... I prefer marmelade or banana. I know about study that tested kefirs and found mold in most commercial brands but also tested homemade and found positive effect..... Also know super muscular guy who is making homemade kefir and write about it like its best thing on Earth, his name is Adam Raw, he can have some videos with english. Because of my culture, I enjoy pickled cucumbers or kefir after spicy food or high fat meat and it helps with digestion alot, also Turkish people are making kefir that is like a heaven and Always calms my stomach after their food...

 

[Perry Staltic]

Here is a quote from Peat. The "strained" type he says is safe is greek yogurt:

"A spoonful or two of acidic yogurt isn't harmful, but a cupful of the
acidic type can be enough to deplete the liver's energy stores,
because lactic acid is converted to glucose in the liver, requiring
energy. The "strained" type that isn't acidic is similar to cottage
cheese and is safe." – Ray Peat (Email advice)

I don't know what he means by "strained"? As far as I know Greek yogurt isn't strained, it just uses other strains (bulgaricus, s. thermophilus) than acidophilis, though some do include acidophilus. The Greek yogurt I eat has bulgaricus, thermophilus, rhamnosus, bifidus, acidophilus and paracasei.

 

[Jam]

Greek yogurt is the epitome of strained.

Strained yogurt, Greek yogurt,[2] yogurt cheese, sack yogurt, or kerned yogurt is yogurt that has been strained to remove most of its whey, resulting in a thicker consistency than normal unstrained yogurt, while still preserving the distinctive sour taste of yogurt.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Greek yogurt is the epitome of strained.

Strained yogurt, Greek yogurt,[2] yogurt cheese, sack yogurt, or kerned yogurt is yogurt that has been strained to remove most of its whey, resulting in a thicker consistency than normal unstrained yogurt, while still preserving the distinctive sour taste of yogurt.

So strained means strained of excess water, like when making tofu from soy curd. Not all Greek yogurt is strained. In fact I don't know how I could have strained the Greek yogurt I used to make, because it contained very little loose water. However, yogurt I made from other strains did require straining, or the addition of thickening agents.

 

[Jam]

So strained means strained of excess water, like when making tofu from soy curd. Not all Greek yogurt is strained. In fact I don't know how I could have strained the Greek yogurt I used to make, because it contained very little loose water. However, yogurt I made from other strains did require straining, or the addition of thickening agents.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i6/Acid-whey-waste-product-untapped.html

Fifteen tanker trucks full of acid whey, the yellowish liquid by-product of Greek yogurt production, left Yoplait’s plant in Murfreesboro, Tenn., every day in 2014. The trucks headed to nearby farms, where farmers would spread the whey onto their fields as fertilizer. Similar activity on an even larger scale was taking place in New York, where some of the biggest Greek yogurt makers—Chobani, Dannon, and FAGE—have production facilities.

 

[Perry Staltic]

https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i6/Acid-whey-waste-product-untapped.html

Fifteen tanker trucks full of acid whey, the yellowish liquid by-product of Greek yogurt production, left Yoplait’s plant in Murfreesboro, Tenn., every day in 2014. The trucks headed to nearby farms, where farmers would spread the whey onto their fields as fertilizer. Similar activity on an even larger scale was taking place in New York, where some of the biggest Greek yogurt makers—Chobani, Dannon, and FAGE—have production facilities.

It's obvious the term Greek yogurt is used to mean different things. This Greek yogurt starter uses only l. bulgaricus and s. thermopphilus, and I don't see how you could strain water out of it (I've used it). It would just create a big mess. Nothing mentioned about straining here:

Greek Yogurt Starter – Bacillus Bulgaricus

bacillusbulgaricus.com

Add in other bacteria strains to maybe cut costs or get a different flavor would most likely result in more free water (whey) that would be easy, and necessary to strain out (have also done that). The store-bought Greek yogurt I buy uses other strains and may require straining to get the same texture as the above starter because of more whey.

 

[Braveheart]

Peat says greek yogurt is fine as most of the lactic acid has been strained out. He says greek yogurt is almost the same as cottage cheese.

My 125g Greek yogurt daily is Peat approved! I was going to keep eating it anyway.....

 

[Perry Staltic]

It just occurred to me that the type of milk used is likely going to determine how much whey is produced. I suspect that low fat milk will produce more whey than whole milk, and thus more need for straining. I don't see how that has anything to do with lactic acid, unless most lactic acid resides in the whey.

 

[Soybean]

is anyone familiar with the work of Elie Metchnikoff, who theorized the lactic acid in yogurt is the best way to kill bacteria in the intestine and prevent putrefaction?

Yes! His book prolongation of life is a very good read from a hundred years ago.

According to Metchnikoff, lactic acid and lactic acid bacteria kill other bacteria, leading to net less bacteria and bacterial diversity in the gut. And thus less endotoxin.

I find that there is also a big difference between kinds of lactofermented milk. Yoghurt tastes very sour and not nice to me. But where I live you can buy buttermilk which is not nearly as sour and very tasty (to me at least).

Maybe small amounts can be useful against endotoxin, if a sterile gut is not feasible.

 

[RealNeat]

Yes! His book prolongation of life is a very good read from a hundred years ago.

According to Metchnikoff, lactic acid and lactic acid bacteria kill other bacteria, leading to net less bacteria and bacterial diversity in the gut. And thus less endotoxin.

I find that there is also a big difference between kinds of lactofermented milk. Yoghurt tastes very sour and not nice to me. But where I live you can buy buttermilk which is not nearly as sour and very tasty (to me at least).

Maybe small amounts can be useful against endotoxin, if a sterile gut is not feasible.

Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

One of the ideas of Ray Peat's that seems to run counter to both the mainstream and alternative health world is that bacteria in the GI tract is NOT beneficial, in general. Peat has said that there are some strains of bacteria that are less harmful than others, and even can produce some...

raypeatforum.com

 

[RealNeat]

Is it OK to substitute sour cream for yogurt in food prep? I'm talking about a few tablespoons per serving.

Likely worse, but people tend to eat less (quantity) sour cream than they do yoghurt. So your balance of lactic acid may be equal when one considers serving size.

I'd substitute Greek yoghurt for sour cream whenever possible.

Ps My mother never had plain yoghurt in the fridge, the moment she got her hands on some family size regular yoghurt it would get about 5 large cloves of garlic smashed into it with a couple teaspoons of salt.

She would then use it on any vegetable dish she would make, from stuffed peppers, stuffed grape leaves, fried eggplants, cooked spinach & onions to rice. I always loved it. It would be a cooling savory addition to hot rich dishes. Much like the "bland" relief sour cream offers a heavily seasoned taco.

 

[Grapelander]

You can try the heirloom Scandinavian types:
Skyr
Skyr is an Icelandic cultured dairy product. It has the consistency of strained yogurt, but a milder flavor. Skyr can be classified as a fresh sour milk cheese (similar to curd cheese eaten in Germany and Russia) but is consumed like a yogurt. It has been a part of Icelandic cuisine for centuries.
Skyr has a slightly sour dairy flavor, with a hint of residual sweetness. It is traditionally served cold, either plain or with cream. Commercial manufacturers of skyr have added flavors such as vanilla or fruit.

Viili
Viili (Finnish) is a mesophilic fermented milk product found in the Nordic countries, particularly Finland. Viili is similar to yoghurt or kefir, but when left unmixed, its texture is malleable, or "long". The metabolism of the bacteria used in the fermentation also gives viili a slightly different taste.

Filmjölk
Filmjölk , also known as fil, is a traditional fermented milk product from Sweden, and a common dairy product within the Nordic countries. It is made by fermenting cow's milk with a variety of bacteria from the species Lactococcus lactis and Leuconostoc mesenteroides.
In the Nordic countries, filmjölk is often eaten with breakfast cereal, muesli or crushed crisp bread on top. Some people add sugar, jam, apple sauce, cinnamon, ginger, fruits, or berries for extra flavor.

 

[Jib]

I'm still going strong with homemade kefir. I have made Viili before, but not Filmjolk or Pima or Amasi, etc.

I just seem to tolerate kefir so much better than plain milk. Lately I've been having 3 cups a day, though I'd like to get a bigger mason jar and bump it up to a quart.

 

[VitoScaletta]

Bump

 

[VitoScaletta]

I'm still going strong with homemade kefir. I have made Viili before, but not Filmjolk or Pima or Amasi, etc.

I just seem to tolerate kefir so much better than plain milk. Lately I've been having 3 cups a day, though I'd like to get a bigger mason jar and bump it up to a quart.

How does store bought kefir compare?

 

[VitoScaletta]

FWIW, Peat's advice seems to line up with my experience. A small amount of yogurt is fine, but when I've used larger amounts for meals (even greek yogurt), I start to feel weird and sluggish after a few days. I also get a sort of feeling like my GI tract is slowing down, and not feeling good. Never get this from normal cheese or cottage cheese.

Thanks for your input.
Where do you stand on yogurt now?
Thx

 

[Jib]

How does store bought kefir compare?

In my personal experience, store bought kefir gives me diarrhea. However, if someone was able to drink it with zero issues, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Homemade kefir agrees with me much better.

As for yogurt, I still enjoy it quite a bit. Greek yogurt being my personal preference, for no other reason than taste and texture. Full fat of course tastes best. But as I've been trying to lose some body fat, I've been sticking to the low or non-fat yogurt.

If I overdo any dairy it tends to make me feel funny, but this is a personal thing. If it's well tolerated and you feel good eating it, I wouldn't hesitate to continue. I quite enjoy yogurt. If we're talking about plain, unflavored, however, I much prefer kefir. Every time I get yogurt at the store I usually get vanilla or honey flavored, which always has a bunch of sugar in it. Or plain, and then add a bunch of honey to it on my own. With kefir, I only ever drink it plain and have no desire to flavor it. If you don't ferment it too long, it tends to have a milder, almost cheese like flavor compared to yogurt, which can be quite sour plain.

 

[Can]

Ngl, Ray Peat has secured a place in my heart for being a nuanced thinker who freed me of fear of saturated fats and made me realize that I don't need to stuff myself with pufa nuts and seeds, and I sincerely appreciate him for that. But when it comes to the gut microbiome, I am not convinced. Maybe the idea that a sterile gut would be optimal in lab conditions might be true, but in the real world trying to keep a sterile gut is utterly impossible. I am currently listening to Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, a Russian neurologist and nutritionist who devised the GAPS diet, a diet that aims to heal the gut, and found her approach very interesting. Her recommendations at times are quite similar to Rays, but she differs when it comes to fermented foods. Similar to what was said about Metchnikoff in this thread, she believes that the lactic acid from fermented dairy kills off pathogenic bacteria in the gut. She is against antibiotics because she believes they first and foremost kill the beneficial strains of microbes that control the more pathogenic strains, leaving room for pathogenic microbes to proliferate. She believes that pasteurized dairy is a dead product and possibly harmful and irritating to the gut, while raw and/or fermented dairy are life-giving and healing for the gut.

The thing is, I have been struggling with some health issues coming from my gut. I used to eat a lot of fermented foods and pufas (nuts and seeds) when I came across Ray Peat, and due to Ray, I eliminated all the fermented products and the nuts and seeds out of my diet, started adding pasteurized lowfat milk etc and followed that for a few weeks. My skin conditions noticeably improved at first, but I now attribute that to the reduced consumption of pufa laden nuts and seeds. Other issues however have become worse, my gut especially feels less tolerant to foods, and more sensitive as I am starting to notice in the last couple of days. Something about my current Peat-inspired diet doesn't seem to be working, which is why I will consider what Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride has to say. While I will stick to keeping pufa-intake low, I will slowly add in some fermented and/or raw dairy, while eliminating pasteurized dairy from the discounter and see how my body will respond. I know that this is all anecdotal, but that is what I am left with right now.

 

[conrad0602]

Ngl, Ray Peat has secured a place in my heart for being a nuanced thinker who freed me of fear of saturated fats and made me realize that I don't need to stuff myself with pufa nuts and seeds, and I sincerely appreciate him for that. But when it comes to the gut microbiome, I am not convinced. Maybe the idea that a sterile gut would be optimal in lab conditions might be true, but in the real world trying to keep a sterile gut is utterly impossible. I am currently listening to Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, a Russian neurologist and nutritionist who devised the GAPS diet, a diet that aims to heal the gut, and found her approach very interesting. Her recommendations at times are quite similar to Rays, but she differs when it comes to fermented foods. Similar to what was said about Metchnikoff in this thread, she believes that the lactic acid from fermented dairy kills off pathogenic bacteria in the gut. She is against antibiotics because she believes they first and foremost kill the beneficial strains of microbes that control the more pathogenic strains, leaving room for pathogenic microbes to proliferate. She believes that pasteurized dairy is a dead product and possibly harmful and irritating to the gut, while raw and/or fermented dairy are life-giving and healing for the gut.

The thing is, I have been struggling with some health issues coming from my gut. I used to eat a lot of fermented foods and pufas (nuts and seeds) when I came across Ray Peat, and due to Ray, I eliminated all the fermented products and the nuts and seeds out of my diet, started adding pasteurized lowfat milk etc and followed that for a few weeks. My skin conditions noticeably improved at first, but I now attribute that to the reduced consumption of pufa laden nuts and seeds. Other issues however have become worse, my gut especially feels less tolerant to foods, and more sensitive as I am starting to notice in the last couple of days. Something about my current Peat-inspired diet doesn't seem to be working, which is why I will consider what Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride has to say. While I will stick to keeping pufa-intake low, I will slowly add in some fermented and/or raw dairy, while eliminating pasteurized dairy from the discounter and see how my body will respond. I know that this is all anecdotal, but that is what I am left with right now.

My experience was similar in terms of gut health following peats advice. It basically decreases beneficial bacteria whilst feeding candida which can result in all sorts of symptoms. I feel like the issues that persist when following peats dietary advice too strictly are most likely gut related. Go with your gut ?