Peat + Old School Bodybuilding? An Experimental Quest

PeskyPeater

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Good point, tho I was eating a surplus of all 3 macro's en route to briefly reaching 181 pounds.

The extra protein would've been more thermogenic, sure, but it wouldn't lead to malnutrition in the context of calorie surplus.

Digestive enzymes...ah, I never ended up trying those! Maybe should've.
Sorry but that doesn't answer my question in particular.
Oh excess protein is assimilated into heat, thats interesting ( hwo dos that work?)
..and were you hoping that part of extra protein to also be used to build muscle? Seems to me it could be disadvatage to digestion, I thought studies indicate 10grams of protein per hour?
 

Dr. B

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Haha do I look some other gender/ethnicity?
Yeah, I second the "what are you talking about"?

Awesome. Yeah, you have plenty of muscle mass.
this post here, looks different, maybe just lighting, hat and less tanned then

do you do those 55 reps of pullups as bodyweight, or weighted pullups?
 
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OccamzRazer

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this post here, looks different, maybe just lighting, hat and less tanned then

do you do those 55 reps of pullups as bodyweight, or weighted pullups?
Ah gotcha! Yeah tanner + longer hair + facial hair, it is a different look.

Bodyweight only. Might get a weighted vest but not sure if that extra stimulus is really needed. I'm hoping to maintain from bodyweight calisthenics alone...
 
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OccamzRazer

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That's fantastic – especially considering your mixing in push-ups in between.

How much rest is there between the movements?
Thnx for the kind words brother!

Maybe just a minute or two between each set. I just do it by feel, trying to keep breathing in control.
 
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OccamzRazer

OccamzRazer

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Full Body Workouts?. If so, how do you feel with them?. Are you still going so stick to them?.

I tryed 30-45 Minute Full Body Workouts for a While now. And feel very positive Effects with it. Definitively less stomach bloating, more Energy. Also no Yawning or Tiredness after Workout in General (which COULD indicate doing too much Cortisol and also some sort of Overtraining?). Pump is also There and Noticable.
I Think i had done too much in Terms of Workout Time AND Volume in the Past, which was not good for General Health and Muscle Building (The Time before i learned about Ray Peat and his Principles). In my Earlier Years i was doing 1 to 1,5 Hour Workouts which i think was not a good Idea at this Time. Also as a Result from that, i think i will never Workout More than 45 Minutes again. This seems to me my Personal Sweet Spot.
Hi David I totally forgot to reply to you! Oops!

Sounds like you've found a minimal effective dose that works for you, awesome! This is so so important. Are you still doing lots of mobility stuff and glute work?

I guess I do full [upper] body workouts these days, mostly just calisthenics, as you may have since read. Never push to maximum anymore.
 
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OccamzRazer

OccamzRazer

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Sorry but that doesn't answer my question in particular.
Oh excess protein is assimilated into heat, thats interesting ( hwo dos that work?)
..and were you hoping that part of extra protein to also be used to build muscle? Seems to me it could be disadvatage to digestion, I thought studies indicate 10grams of protein per hour?
Ah, so you're asking if I expected the extra protein to make a difference, in the sense that lower protein intake would be a rate-limiting factor?

Not really. I just felt good eating lots of beef and got the extra protein by default. It's tough to stay under 200g protein/day when you're eating over 5000 cals and don't feel great going high carb.
 

Dr. B

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Ah, so you're asking if I expected the extra protein to make a difference, in the sense that lower protein intake would be a rate-limiting factor?

Not really. I just felt good eating lots of beef and got the extra protein by default. It's tough to stay under 200g protein/day when you're eating over 5000 cals and don't feel great going high carb.
whats your sources and amounts for protein mate
 

PeskyPeater

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Ah, so you're asking if I expected the extra protein to make a difference, in the sense that lower protein intake would be a rate-limiting factor?

Oh dear, no thats over-complicated hehe. Actually it was a strategic question, I was more hoping for the answer.. yes you did expect extra protein to build muscle. :)
As such is the general consensus right? So then I could go on with that, and confront with this relatively novel thing and so controversial.
..that it could well be that it's not the dietary protein that build the muscle, but your muscle them-self bio synthesize the protein. And the dogma is wrong.
 
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OccamzRazer

OccamzRazer

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Oh dear, no thats over-complicated hehe. Actually it was a strategic question, I was more hoping for the answer.. yes you did expect extra protein to build muscle. :)
As such is the general consensus right? So then I could go on with that, and confront with this relatively novel thing and so controversial.
..that it could well be that it's not the dietary protein that build the muscle, but your muscle them-self bio synthesize the protein. And the dogma is wrong.
Haha ok. I could believe what you're saying!

What approach do you take to building muscle?
 

PeskyPeater

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Haha ok. I could believe what you're saying!

What approach do you take to building muscle?
Simply put, no generally put: I perceive it, as a conscience directive to help muscle take regenerative action to an purposefully induced stress in the hope for it to supersede it's previous state of being.
 

PeskyPeater

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And with that I like to elucidate more upon the idea of the body/muscle, itself synthesizing its protein internally instead of the reliance o dietary intake of protein being the catalyst and limit..
When have to look at the math behind.. of proportional amino-acid constructed body.

It doenst make sense,. eating grams and grams of protein, so if we are 15% protein doing the math ..

(Protein mass in healthy adults is relatively large, representing 10.6 kg, or 15.1%, of body mass in the reference man (1).


Then taking the half life of protein is 14 hours.

we can determine mathematically that we need about 30 KILOGRAMS of prottein every day to sustain our aminocaids to be acle to stand straight up all day
 
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Just throwing it out there, doing consistently high rep work is very overrated for building muscle you should be mixing in both high rep and low rep work with matched intensity. Also, high rep work is going to accumulate the largest amount of lactic acid, while your body get better at dispelling the lactic acid over time I don't really see the benefit of doing anything above 15-20 reps for muscle building.
 

Dr. B

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Just throwing it out there, doing consistently high rep work is very overrated for building muscle you should be mixing in both high rep and low rep work with matched intensity. Also, high rep work is going to accumulate the largest amount of lactic acid, while your body get better at dispelling the lactic acid over time I don't really see the benefit of doing anything above 15-20 reps for muscle building.
with shrugs like dumbell shrugs especially, the high rep work seemed to help a ton. with delt work too, high rep work somehow helped them really develop... the lat raise exercises different forms/angles of it
ive heard calfs need high rep work too, because you walk on them maybe, they really need to be it hard with reps, you may note even many pretty weak people can rep like the maximum stack on the calf raise machines...
 
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with shrugs like dumbell shrugs especially, the high rep work seemed to help a ton. with delt work too, high rep work somehow helped them really develop... the lat raise exercises different forms/angles of it
ive heard calfs need high rep work too, because you walk on them maybe, they really need to be it hard with reps, you may note even many pretty weak people can rep like the maximum stack on the calf raise machines...
The name of the game is mechanical tension and metabolic stress, not rep ranges. There are definitely certain stimuli that are easier achieved with higher or lower reps, but none of them require anything over 15-20 reps in my opinion, at that point it is just endurance unless you are utilizing drop sets, changing the resistance profile, ect. Less stable exercises or muscles that have really long moments arms (IE the delts, can't really bend your elbow, and hit the lateral delts well) are going to require heavier rep ranges because you can't use as heavy of a weight. Muscles all work in the same way, it really comes down to recruiting the high threshold motor units which only happens at the last few reps before failure. So yes, there are a variety of way to achieve this, but you don't need to really high reps to do so.
 

David90

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Hi David I totally forgot to reply to you! Oops!

Sounds like you've found a minimal effective dose that works for you, awesome! This is so so important. Are you still doing lots of mobility stuff and glute work?

I guess I do full [upper] body workouts these days, mostly just calisthenics, as you may have since read. Never push to maximum anymore.
Yes. I Finally found a Minimal Effective Dose. Was about Time. I Never liked the Idea, to go the Gym more than necessary. I still see always guys in my GYM that are Training for more than a Hour which i think is Counterproductive. Especially in Terms of Hormones (Especially Stress-Hormones) and Muscle Gain. I'm a big Believer in Short but Intense Workouts.

Yes still doing lots of Mobility Stuff and Glute Work. I even done a Lower Body Workout (Last Week) with a Female Employee of my gym and we we're doing Barbell Hip Thrusts. She Maxed out at 150KG/330 Pounds for 1 Rep (I Personally maxed out @ 140KG/310 Pounds). But i have done a Max Out of the ''Barbell Glute Bridge'' directly after that and i accomplished 200KG/440 Pounds for 1 Rep. At the Moment, i do Hip Thrusts with @85KG/185 Pounds for Around 8-10 Reps. Quite Insane that my Hip Thrust/Glute Bridge is Stronger then my Squat and Deadlift lol

In the meanwhile i try'ed Two Different Splits out. ''Push/Pull/Full Body (Leg Focused)'', then a ''Upper/Lower'' Split. They there both looking good on Paper but they haven't felt right to me. I still think, that ''Full Body'' is the Best Balanced out of these Three. It gives you the Most Bang for your Buck and it still hits everything 2-3x per Week with adequate Volume.

Calisthenics sounds good as well as the Full (Upper) Body Workouts. You can never go Wrong with that. But i feel you. There is no need, to push to Maximum all the Time for all the Lifts. Because Maxing Out all the Time can surely be Exhausting. I personally train around 1-2 Reps from Failure for almost all Exercises.

But i found a good Alternative in Terms of Maxing Out. I do a Variation from this from Jeff Nippard. He does the First Set as a Max-Out (Around 85-90% of 1RM, for Example: Bench Press/Squat/Deadlift for 1-3 Reps) and the other two are done in a more Medium Rep Range with lower 1RM (Around 5-8 Reps). Which is what i do nowadays too. No need to Max-Out all the Time. And this Method still keeps you Hard-Earned Strength. But i think it's a good Variant to try.

Beef, cheese, eggs, milk mostly.

There are a few chronometers buried in this log if you wanna see the exact amounts of each!

Looks Good. I have the Same Protein Sources too (except maybe more chesse and less milk). Protein is around 110-140g daily (depends if i have a workout day or not).


Just throwing it out there, doing consistently high rep work is very overrated for building muscle you should be mixing in both high rep and low rep work with matched intensity. Also, high rep work is going to accumulate the largest amount of lactic acid, while your body get better at dispelling the lactic acid over time I don't really see the benefit of doing anything above 15-20 reps for muscle building.

Partly Right. But It Depends. For Compound Exercises (like Bench Press, Weighted Dips, Weighted Pull Ups, Squat, Deadlift, Rows, Overhead Press) i would stay around 5-8 Reps (with Exceptions). For Isolation Exercises (Curls, Skullcrusher, Side Raises, Lunges and so forth) i would stay around 8-10 Reps Maximum. There is really no need to go beyond 10 Reps most of the Time, you are right in that Regard. The Original Idea for this High Rep Scheme, was the Idea of Time under Tension, which is (nowadays) overrated. As long as your Rep-Tempo is Adequate (for example: 1 Second Up, 2 Seconds down, Holding for 1 Second), you will reach the Time of 30-45 seconds (for Time under Tension) anyway.

The Only Exception i would make for High Rep Work is for the Side and Rear Delts.

I was doing about 30-minute long sessions. Long pauses between heavy compounds, and short pauses between accessory movements. This style is sometimes called powerbuilding. Seemed to work pretty well for me as long as I was listening to my body and breathing,

Doing something different now, but will cover that soon!
Sounds Great. I Like the Training Style. Especially the Pauses. I see so many People in my Gym doing Heavy Compounds and not doing too much Rest in between (sometimes even 2 Minutes) which i think is counterproductive. For Compound Exercises it will at least take 3-4 Minute Pause to go at it at Full Power again (especially 4 Minute Pause if you do Weighted Pull Ups or Heavy Squats/Deadlift because they can be VERY Fatiguing for the CNS). For Isolation Exercises, the rest Time can be shorter (around 1-2 Minutes) without much Problem, because the Fatigue is not that big with them.

Also Practicing ''Nose Breathing'' can be very helpful for the Workouts. Meaning only breathing through the nose and keeping the mouth Closed. I try this every time i workout for certain exercises.

PS. here's where things ended up, physique-wise!

Pics are from before and after calisthenics session lol.
Looking Good Physique-Wise. Shoulder and Arms Area are definetly Noticeable.
 

peter88

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I would recommend looking into some older Ray Peat interviews. It's fascinating hearing Ray talk about this. Especially when he brings up how the eastern Europeans were accused of doping, when all they were really doing was focusing on this concentric method of training and avoiding the production of lactic acid, causing the body to increase the ratio of testosterone to cortisol. "The muscle shrinks from cortisol and grows from testosterone." - RP

He also mentioned that when a person is under stress [from eccentric exercise and lactic acid production], their body can only make enough testosterone for the heart, lungs, brain etc. But when muscle cells aren't stressed, [from proper use of concentric exercise and not over-training], this shifts the balance towards actually producing some testosterone locally in that muscle tissue as well as responding to that testosterone and blocking cortisol.

I used to be an advocate for doing heavy squats, as that is what people say, it raises testosterone. But I've been having FAR better results by keeping the gym sessions short, 15-20 mins, and pretty much only doing the concentric part of the exercise. Less compound movements and more cable machines, leg machines etc.

Also in relation to not being able to gain weight, I know it sounds simple, but the solution is to drink more milk. I have a friend who always complained of being a hard gainer, he tried eating 4000-5000 calories a day, eating so much that he would throw up, and trying all those weight gainer protein shakes, and still not gaining weight. After I suggested he drink a gallon of whole milk, he put on 10 kg in a couple of months
Are you still doing 15-20 minute sessions focused around cables and machines?
 

Dr. B

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Are you still doing 15-20 minute sessions focused around cables and machines?
Yes. once or twice a week.
the lactic acid stuff is interesting

doesnt beta alanine reduce lactic production? i dont know if its everywhere, or only in the muscles? its supplemented due to it causing a delay in lactic acid.
doesnt baking soda do the same?
and ive heard thiamine can somehow reduce lactic acid, maybe via being a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor
what other supplements reduce lactic acid

@rr1 did he gain fat from whole milk? so should milk be reduced for low metabolism people
concentric means you basicalyl do only the push part of the muscle not the pulling part, so on a bench press it would mean, instead of repping the weight, you would push the weight up then just rack the bar?

with barbell rows, just pull the weight up, then drop the weight instead of slowly lowering it for reps?

bicep curl, you pull the weight up for the curl, but then rack the dumbell instead of lowering it?

how is the concentric training method applied to things like squats, barbell rows, tricep rope cable pushdowns, seated dumbell tricep extensions etc
 

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