Peat + Old School Bodybuilding? An Experimental Quest

akgrrrl

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Supplement Details

~ vitamin K2 from Idealabs
~ aspirin
~ pau d'arco tea
~ red light (2-3 x 1 min/day)
~ nondenatured whey protein
~ bee propolis
~ mag citrate
~ potassium citrate


May also add in progesterone or pregnenolone again (just ran out of Stressnon)
Woo hoo good project. Check our member Hans. He is the pro, already combining RayPeat principles with latest science that crushes the huge weight bodybuilding of yore. He is working on a new program from what I heard
 

OccamzRazer

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Woo hoo good project. Check our member Hans. He is the pro, already combining RayPeat principles with latest science that crushes the huge weight bodybuilding of yore. He is working on a new program from what I heard
Thanks so much!

Yes...Hans is awesome! He's done some great research and really seems to practice what he preaches. Just listened to one of his podcasts a few days ago.

As far as "[crushing] the huge weight bodybuilding of yore," however, I might have to disagree - at least based on results.

To my knowledge Hans is not quite as strong or carrying as much muscle mass as Armand Tanny, Reg Park, John Grimek, Steve Reeves, et al.

That's not to say his methods aren't effective, however. It's highly possible that humankind as a whole has degenerated since the 50s, making replication of what the silver era bodybuilders did next to impossible.

This possibility is one of the reasons I plan on training just like they did.
 

OccamzRazer

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Training Background

Realized this might be worth specifying.

I have been weight training for a little over 6 months, since just before last Thanksgiving. For most of this time, I've been training 3-4 days/week with pretty standard splits. During this time I went from 165-175 pounds bodyweight.

Prior to the last 6 months, I did lots of basic calisthenics, tending to stay in the low 160s weight-wise.

I just began this new 6 days/week, 2/day training routine this week. My hope is that the increased training frequency allows for much faster muscle gain.

In case any of this matters!
 

OccamzRazer

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Those macros make no sense, High Carb + High Fat will set you up for a lot of fat gain.
Also...I don't mean to just discount what you're saying here.

What kind of macros do you recommend? I can certainly try switching things up.

The problem is that the calories have to come from somewhere, and higher carb/lower fat seems to cause too much bloating. I have also tried the very-high-carb, very-low-fat approach some members here have used for PUFA depletion.
 

Candy

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Hi! Following with interest. I am a woman and I love lifting weights, I have time in the forum but I do not find much information here about women and muscles.
 

OccamzRazer

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Update #1

Things are going really well so far.

Yesterday I did the AM workout (20 'breathing' squats and 20 pullovers) and felt great afterward.

For the PM workout (heavy pull work), I felt a little tired. Didn't really feel up for a deadlift PR, so did a weighted pullup PR instead. Also did heavy barbell curls, trying to replicate what Reg Park recommended for arms.

I'm thinking the heavy deadlifts might be incompatible with this program. Might just sub them out for weighted pullups, which seem to be just as anabolic without being quite as CNS-stressing? Will probably just play it by ear.

Also...I might need even more calories training twice a day. It seems like the AM workout, while short, boosts metabolism pretty well (as evidenced by warmth, 'glowiness,' and better circulation for hours afterward).
 

OccamzRazer

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Hi! Following with interest. I am a woman and I love lifting weights, I have time in the forum but I do not find much information here about women and muscles.
Hi, glad to have you!!

I may not be able to help so much with the women-specific part...but hope you find some good info here!

I do know from my cycling days that women are more susceptible to overtraining than men when it comes to endurance sports. I trained with some of the Nation's best female cyclists, and they had a totally different training format that really honored recovery times. They also needed more supplements (B vitamins and iron).

Not sure if this concept applies to strength training, though.
 

OccamzRazer

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Just stumbled onto this 1951 article about "gaining definition" by Reg Park. Some may call it pseudoscience (or 'bro science,' better yet), but IMO it's kind of intuitive!

I bolded some parts that sounded especially Peaty, and highlighted in this color parts that remind me of the 'Temperature Reset' many members here have done:

~ ~ ~

"Overeating must be avoided at all costs. Eat until you feel your hunger allayed, but never eat for the sake of eating. You can perform no finer exercise than pushing yourself away from the table. DON’T OVERDRINK. In fact cut down as much as possible on liquids, confining your liquid intake to juicy fruits and vegetables and SMALL glasses of fruit and vegetable juice. Don’t drink during your workouts no matter how thirsty you may feel. Instead, keep a lemon handy and suck it or rub it across the tongue. All types of alcoholic drinks are out AT ALL TIMES. This goes for smoking too. Under normal circumstances a cigarette or two does no harm, but the program required to induce definition is of the endurance type and poor wind lessons the ability to carry such a schedule out efficiently.

It is also important to see that the organs of elimination . . . the skin and the bowels . . . function freely and naturally. The use of purgatives is strictly advised against. Instead, rely on natural means to regulate the bowels. A dish of prunes on rising, a glass of lemon juice and hot water in equal quantities, will do much to promote healthy bowel action. All kinds of citrus fruits, as well as sun-dried fruits are good. During your workouts wear a thick track suit so that you can sweat freely. After your workout is finished take a shower as hot as you can bear it and rub yourself down briskly with a towel as rough as you can obtain.

During the summer months you will find that sunbathing does much to take the excess liquid out of your system. You sweat freely, rid the body of the wastes resulting from your previous workout, and acquire a coat of tan that in itself helps create the impression of greater definition than you possess.

After your workout take a good rubdown with that rough towel and massage the muscles. Massage, like exercise, tends to normalcy. Especially work hard on those areas that show signs of flabbiness and fat. In your actual exercise schedule make certain that not only do you use basic exercises, but others that take care of the little-known and used muscle groups. In other words, not only are the sets and reps important, but the quantity of exercises too . . . VARIETY of muscle movements."
 
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OccamzRazer

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Ah, there's more good stuff in that Reg Park article!

~~

In addition to plenty of salads and fresh fruits, step up your protein intake. Soft boiled eggs, cheese . . . LEAN BEEF, veal, liver, and all kinds of shellfish are good. Don’t use any white sugar but confine your ‘candy’ consumption to a few spoonfuls of honey each day.

And finally . . . WORK HARD . . . hard and with 100% determination. Keep yourself wrapped up warm while you train and don’t be afraid to sweat freely. Eat plenty of meat . . . with, again, a sole exception . . . PORK. Use cottage cheese instead of butter and don’t eat any fatty or fried foods. The most important points in your definition program are these . . . A TREMENDOUS VARIETY OF EXERCISES . . . CUT DOWN ON ALL STARCHES . . . STEP UP YOUR PROTEIN INTAKE . . .AND . . . ONCE AGAIN, WORK HARD.
 

tankasnowgod

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Dietary Details

I've always eaten a lot and stayed pretty thin. When I 'retired' from pro cycling in 2014, I only weighed 130 pounds!

In order to continue gaining weight, I need to eat 4000-5000 calories a day, maybe more in the future. I'm already pushing way past my body's natural 'set point.'

After much experimentation, it seems like I've settled on a high fat, high protein, lowish carb approach. The carbs are really only low in relative terms, however, courtesy of the high total calorie intake. Eating higher carb leads to sluggishness and facial and abdominal bloating.

Here's a cronometer snapshot:

View attachment 23152

Diet looks pretty good, overall. I would think a Casein Powder would be a little better than Whey, since it has a little less tryptophan. I also think it might be worth adding a bit more gelatin or glycine. I have been using collagen peptides a lot, but noticed the price just going crazy on those recently, and the batch I got recently wasn't as good a quality. So, I plan on using straight glycine power more. I've been aiming to get 15-20g of glycine a day, at least.

I saw this study on higher protein diets, and they noted that both serum glycine and alanine concentrations were a bit lower on the Higher Protein diet (this was noticeable in 7 days)-


I know Peat isn't the biggest fan of isolated aminos, but glycine and something like beta-alanine might be worth a look. I think some of the old school bodybuilders took tryptophan supplements. Obviously, I would skip those, but the point is that some of the aminos would fall in line with classic bodybuilding.
 

tankasnowgod

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May also add in progesterone or pregnenolone again (just ran out of Stressnon)

I have found that progesterone and dhea is excellent for building muscle, even if doing nothing more than sitting around on the computer doing work.



I just recently upped protein quite a bit, and so far, as far as muscle goes, nothing I have ever done seems to beat it. Although, I have never been in as good a shape as you are, so YMMV. I think I've been dealing with high cortisol levels for a long time. On top of that, I worked an early morning shift for a decade, and cortisol levels are known to be higher in people who do that.

It might be interesting for you to do 6-10 weeks without prog, and then 6-10 weeks with, and compare gains.
 

OccamzRazer

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Diet looks pretty good, overall. I would think a Casein Powder would be a little better than Whey, since it has a little less tryptophan. I also think it might be worth adding a bit more gelatin or glycine. I have been using collagen peptides a lot, but noticed the price just going crazy on those recently, and the batch I got recently wasn't as good a quality. So, I plan on using straight glycine power more. I've been aiming to get 15-20g of glycine a day, at least.

I saw this study on higher protein diets, and they noted that both serum glycine and alanine concentrations were a bit lower on the Higher Protein diet (this was noticeable in 7 days)-


I know Peat isn't the biggest fan of isolated aminos, but glycine and something like beta-alanine might be worth a look. I think some of the old school bodybuilders took tryptophan supplements. Obviously, I would skip those, but the point is that some of the aminos would fall in line with classic bodybuilding.
Very good point about the glycine intake. I've been drinking a good amount of gelatinous bone broth, but with it getting hotter out I'm losing an appetite for that stuff...so supplementation might be even more important.

Do you have any recommended sources/brands of gelatin, collagen, or glycine?

Also, theoretically speaking: do you think a person could gain muscle if their only protein source was gelatin/collagen peptides? This is one area where anabolism seems to run counter to longevity.

For protein powder, once I run out of whey (soon) I'll definitely look into getting some casein. Thanks for the advice!
 

OccamzRazer

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I have found that progesterone and dhea is excellent for building muscle, even if doing nothing more than sitting around on the computer doing work.
Awesome. I didn't realize prog was that great for building muscle. Would it be enough to apply Progest-E topically, maybe even on the desired muscles? 🤣
 

tankasnowgod

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Also, theoretically speaking: do you think a person could gain muscle if their only protein source was gelatin/collagen peptides? This is one area where anabolism seems to run counter to longevity.

Well, nausea would probably set in after about a week or so using that much gelatin, so probably not from any sort of practical perspective. However, populations that eat a significant amount of gelatin can be very strong. Haidut posted this a while ago-


No recommendations on glycine, I've just been ordering a kilogram of bulk glycine powder off Amazon.
 

tankasnowgod

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Awesome. I didn't realize prog was that great for building muscle. Would it be enough to apply Progest-E topically, maybe even on the desired muscles? 🤣

You could try it. I did notice anti-catabolic effects on biceps when applying progesterone topically on the inner elbow, so it may work.
 

GreekDemiGod

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Also...I don't mean to just discount what you're saying here.

What kind of macros do you recommend? I can certainly try switching things up.

The problem is that the calories have to come from somewhere, and higher carb/lower fat seems to cause too much bloating. I have also tried the very-high-carb, very-low-fat approach some members here have used for PUFA depletion.
There is a thread on this forum called 'Carbosis - superior for lean bulking' or something like that. It's something that I read it was common sense in bodybuilding circles. Most of them restrict fat to under 80g or around that number.
Others recommend carb cycling or carb backloading or front-loading.

The reasoning goes that, when the body is an insulin elevated state, for example when you have your post workout meal, dietary fat included in the meal is more likely to go to fat storage.
 

akgrrrl

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There is a thread on this forum called 'Carbosis - superior for lean bulking' or something like that. It's something that I read it was common sense in bodybuilding circles. Most of them restrict fat to under 80g or around that number.
Others recommend carb cycling or carb backloading or front-loading.

The reasoning goes that, when the body is an insulin elevated state, for example when you have your post workout meal, dietary fat included in the meal is more likely to go to fat storage.
Ooh. Now THAT is helpful.
Thanks Greek!
 

OccamzRazer

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There is a thread on this forum called 'Carbosis - superior for lean bulking' or something like that. It's something that I read it was common sense in bodybuilding circles. Most of them restrict fat to under 80g or around that number.
Others recommend carb cycling or carb backloading or front-loading.

The reasoning goes that, when the body is an insulin elevated state, for example when you have your post workout meal, dietary fat included in the meal is more likely to go to fat storage.
Ah yes, I'm familiar with that concept!

Martin Berkhan uses it very successfully via his Leangains approach...John Keifer uses it via carb backloading.

In theory it should work - and it does seem to work for most people. Overfeeding on carbs should limit de novo lipogenesis and promote lean mass.

It just hasn't yet worked for me. Most recently I tried eating 4000+ cals of FF yogurt, honey, and very lean meat each day. I felt bloated and tired.

My body comp and energy levels are much better when eating fatty yogurt, fatty animal products, and smaller amounts of honey.

I'll admit I don't know why this is. Perhaps lean beef and rice would be a better approach? That's basically the vertical diet.
 

tankasnowgod

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Ah yes, I'm familiar with that concept!

Martin Berkhan uses it very successfully via his Leangains approach...John Keifer uses it via carb backloading.

In theory it should work - and it does seem to work for most people. Overfeeding on carbs should limit de novo lipogenesis and promote lean mass.

It just hasn't yet worked for me. Most recently I tried eating 4000+ cals of FF yogurt, honey, and very lean meat each day. I felt bloated and tired.

My body comp and energy levels are much better when eating fatty yogurt, fatty animal products, and smaller amounts of honey.

I'll admit I don't know why this is. Perhaps lean beef and rice would be a better approach? That's basically the vertical diet.

Well, based on your macros, you could play around with fat and carbs. Don't have to go all the way to 80g of fat, but you could try thinks like lower fat milk and yogurt, while keeping in things like 80% beef and full fat cheese.
 
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