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Paul Stamets Says Talking About Portabello Mushrooms Could Put His Life In Jeopardy
- Thread starter Logan-
- Start date
I always get diarrhea after eating these mushrooms. I cook them in my pressure cooker for 45 minutes, I think that's creates a high temperature, high pressure cooking environment for the mushrooms. Maybe it needs more cooking.
Or maybe (probably) it's the high fodmap content of these mushrooms that is causing the diarrhea.
Or maybe (probably) it's the high fodmap content of these mushrooms that is causing the diarrhea.
I stay away from portabellos, 1 i dont think they taste all that good, 2 they are not good for you. Ive heard that cooking and even high pressure caning doesnt reduce the harmfull compounds significantly.
Just stay away from them imo, we ingest enough carcinogenic substances, so why add to this amount by eating these fungi. There are so many other species which have a beneficial effect on the body... Take A. blazei for example...
Stamets deals with this in relative detail within the GGMM. Its kinda scary that this mushrooms is by far the most popular mushroom in the world.
...
Stamets talks about this in the GGMM too:
"The most notable carcinogenic hydrazine from this mushrooms is agaritine, a powerfull mutagen which is activated by the mushroom enzyme tyrosinase making it heat stable"
"Walton et al. 1998 asserted, however, that the mutagenic and premutagenic compounds are not affected by quick cooking (10 minutes at437f) but are only slightly reduced by prolonged heat treatment in boiling water for 4 hours at 212 f. A study of blanched canned mushrooms showed that the agaritine content was reduced tenfold in comparison to fresh mushrooms... However this reduction may have been due to the leaching of hydrazines into the surrounding water used for blanching, in combination with prolonged high pressure steaming process used for caning."
"Hashida et al 1990) Hashidas study reported marked reduction of agaritines from boiling water at 212 f for 10 minutes, a report in direct contradiction to Waltons 1998 study'"
In my opinion since this is the most popular mushroom sold commercially, bringing in big money for the producers, any ill effects are kept hidden as much as possible. I beleive that the contradicting results arrise from this "hiding" there is just too much at stake for the producers, if the general public were to become aware of the possible dangers. Especially the consumption of raw portabellos. They should really try and select a strain with extra low carcinogenic properties.
From: Carcinogenesis - Button/Crimini/Portabella Mushrooms - Fungi: All Edible, Medicinal, And Other Fungi - Mycotopia
Just stay away from them imo, we ingest enough carcinogenic substances, so why add to this amount by eating these fungi. There are so many other species which have a beneficial effect on the body... Take A. blazei for example...
Stamets deals with this in relative detail within the GGMM. Its kinda scary that this mushrooms is by far the most popular mushroom in the world.
...
Stamets talks about this in the GGMM too:
"The most notable carcinogenic hydrazine from this mushrooms is agaritine, a powerfull mutagen which is activated by the mushroom enzyme tyrosinase making it heat stable"
"Walton et al. 1998 asserted, however, that the mutagenic and premutagenic compounds are not affected by quick cooking (10 minutes at437f) but are only slightly reduced by prolonged heat treatment in boiling water for 4 hours at 212 f. A study of blanched canned mushrooms showed that the agaritine content was reduced tenfold in comparison to fresh mushrooms... However this reduction may have been due to the leaching of hydrazines into the surrounding water used for blanching, in combination with prolonged high pressure steaming process used for caning."
"Hashida et al 1990) Hashidas study reported marked reduction of agaritines from boiling water at 212 f for 10 minutes, a report in direct contradiction to Waltons 1998 study'"
In my opinion since this is the most popular mushroom sold commercially, bringing in big money for the producers, any ill effects are kept hidden as much as possible. I beleive that the contradicting results arrise from this "hiding" there is just too much at stake for the producers, if the general public were to become aware of the possible dangers. Especially the consumption of raw portabellos. They should really try and select a strain with extra low carcinogenic properties.
From: Carcinogenesis - Button/Crimini/Portabella Mushrooms - Fungi: All Edible, Medicinal, And Other Fungi - Mycotopia
Transcription:
Paul Stamets: Portabellas have a problem. All mushrooms should be cooked, and portabellas, in particular, should be cooked at high temperatures.
Joe Rogan: Why?
PS: There is an unfortunate group of compounds called agaritines. Agaritines, are hydrazines that are heat unstable, so the good news is, you should cook them, and if you cook them well, then those mushrooms are not a problem. If you don’t cook them well, then these hydrazines are potentially problematic. Now, nature’s a numbers game: so, there are beneficial compounds, that, in some balance, may outweigh the negative effects of the hydrazines, the garatines in these mushrooms, but that jury is still out so to speak.
JR: What are the negative effects of this?
PS: This is an explosive area of conversation, and that puts my life in danger, so I reserve the right not to answer your question.
JR: Woah! I didn’t expect that. It puts your life in danger talking about portabella mushrooms?
PS: [Silence]
From: Are Raw Portabella Mushrooms Dangerous?
Paul Stamets: Portabellas have a problem. All mushrooms should be cooked, and portabellas, in particular, should be cooked at high temperatures.
Joe Rogan: Why?
PS: There is an unfortunate group of compounds called agaritines. Agaritines, are hydrazines that are heat unstable, so the good news is, you should cook them, and if you cook them well, then those mushrooms are not a problem. If you don’t cook them well, then these hydrazines are potentially problematic. Now, nature’s a numbers game: so, there are beneficial compounds, that, in some balance, may outweigh the negative effects of the hydrazines, the garatines in these mushrooms, but that jury is still out so to speak.
JR: What are the negative effects of this?
PS: This is an explosive area of conversation, and that puts my life in danger, so I reserve the right not to answer your question.
JR: Woah! I didn’t expect that. It puts your life in danger talking about portabella mushrooms?
PS: [Silence]
From: Are Raw Portabella Mushrooms Dangerous?
Boiling extracted around 50% of the agaritine content into the cooking broth within 5min and degraded 20-25% of the original agaritine content of the mushrooms. Prolonged boiling, as when preparing a sauce, reduced the content in the solid mushroom further (around 10% left after 2h). Dry baking of the cultivated mushroom, a process similar to pizza baking, reduced the agaritine content by approximately 25%, whereas frying in oil or butter or deep frying resulted in a more marked reduction (35-70%). Microwave processing of the cultivated mushrooms reduced the agaritine content to one-third of the original level. Thus, the exposure to agaritine was substantially less when consuming processed Agaricus..
From: Carcinogenesis - Button/Crimini/Portabella Mushrooms - Fungi: All Edible, Medicinal, And Other Fungi - Mycotopia
WARNING: Do not eat portobello, cremini, or button mushrooms without cooking them at high temperatures!
First off, did you know that those 3 names are all the exact same kind of mushroom? All 3 of these (the most common mushrooms to be found in any grocery store in the western world), are actually just Agaricus bisporus, the only difference being their age. Buttons are the youngest, and portobellos are the oldest.
Make sure you cook your mushrooms!
These mushrooms contain agaritine & hydrazine, both of which have been found to be cancer-causing, but are luckily both heat-unstable. As Paul says in the video, you should cook all your mushrooms, but especially these ones. If you are boiling these mushrooms, be sure to toss out the water afterwards, as some of the agaritine will be extracted into it.
Cooking Types & Reduction of Agaritine:
Boiling
· Never buy mushrooms from China
· Studies have shown mushrooms (as well as rice) from China coming back with levels of arsenic, lead, mercury, and cadmium. Sometimes over the maximum amounts legally allowed, and for me personally and traceable amounts are too much. These mushrooms will often also be treated with sodium sulfite as an "anti-browning agent", which has been known to cause respiratory side effects.
·
· The older mushrooms are better
· The concentration of hydrazine in button mushrooms decreases with the age of the mushroom, meaning a portobello will have less in it than a cremini, and a cremini will have less than a button. No matter which you're going for, make sure to cook it. Maybe mention something to the people running that salad bar with raw mushrooms in it?
·
· Only eat organic mushrooms
· If you hadn't noticed, mushrooms are quite porous, they're almost like little sponges. While this makes them AMAZING to cook with, just soaking up flavors, it also makes them extremely good at absorbing whatever has been sprayed on them or around them. This means any of those wonderfully toxic Monsatan products they're getting sprayed with, are likely making it right to your dinner plate.
From Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms by Paul Stamets
"This mushroom contains compounds that inhibit the enzyme aromatase. Aromatase is associated with tumor growth. Compounds inhibiting aromatase have potential for the treatment of breast cancer(Bankhead, 1999). A diet of mushrooms in mice with implanted tumors showed a decrease in aromatase as mushroom consumption increased. However, Agaricus brunnescens contains hydrazines, carcinogenic compounds that have been thought to dissipate only from prolonged, high temperature heating. More than 80 percent of known hydrazines are carcinogenic. The most notable carcinogenic hydrazine from this mushroom is agaritine, a powerful mutagen, which is activated by the mushroom enzyme tyrosinase, making it heat stable. Enzymes in the digestive system convert agaritine into carcinogenic by-products. The chemical culprits worthy of concern are: 4-(hydroxymethyl)phenylhydrazines and 4(hydroxymethyl)benzene diazonium ions(Walton et al. 1997). Free radicals can also activate Agaricus hydrazines into highly carcinogenic subconstituents (tomasi et al 1987) as well as catalytic processes in the kidneys (Price et al. 1996). Hence, there are several modes of activating agaritine into highly carcinogenic derivatives.
The damaging effects of agaritine's derivatives may be partially suppressed by the mushroom's antioxidants, which, in turn help create host-generated superoxide dismutases (SODs), and the activity of aromatase inhibitors. Walton et al. 1998 asserted, however, that the mutagenic and pre-mutagenic compounds are not affected by quick cooking(10 minutes at 437F/225C) but are only slightly reduced by prolonged heat treatment in boiling water for 4 hours at 212F/100C). A study of blanched, canned mushrooms showed that the agaritine content was reduced tenfold in comparison to fresh mushrooms, from 229mg/kg to 15-18mg/kg(Andersson et al. 1999). However, this reduction may have been due to leaching of the hydrazines into the surrounding water used for blanching in combination with prolonged, high pressure steaming processing used for canning. Another report by Sharman et al. 1990, found most fresh samples of this mushroom had agaritine levels within the range of 80-225mg/kg but with one dried sample having 6,520 mg/kg, a comparatively high level. This result suggests that agaritine production may be a strain specific trait, as this one dried, sliced sample had more than 8 times the agaritine content of other samples in this same study. In contrast, dried Shiitake mushrooms, Lentinula edodes, have either undetectable or extremely low levels of agaritines, in the 0.082 mg/kg range (Stijve et al. 1986; Hashida et al. 1990). Hashida's study reported marked reduction of agaritines from boiling water at 212F(100C) for 10 minutes, a report in direct contradiction of Walton's 1998 study.
A Swiss report estimated that with the average consumption of 4 grams per day of Agaricus bisporus(=Agaricus brunnescens) the lifetime increase in cancer risk would be approximately two cases per hundred thousand lives(Shepard et al. 1995). In a metropolitan area of twenty million residents, approximately the size of Los Angeles, two hundred people would be expected to get cancer in their lifetime from eating Agaricus brunnescens mushrooms, all other factors being equal.
However, other investigations have questioned the cause and effect relationship of agaritine in Button mushrooms and its mutagenic properties(Pilegaard et al. 1997; Matsumoto eet al. 1991; Papaparaskeva et al. 1991; and Pool-Kobel 1990). Benjamin 1995 noted that early studies are controversial and potentially flawed. One study had the intravenous introduction of mushrooms into mice. Another study showed that mice implanted with cancer cells (Sarcoma 180) and then fed dried mushrooms showed inhibited tumor growth(Mori et al. 1986). More recent studies reconfirm that a diet of this mushroom, both raw and baked, induced tumors in mice(Toth et al. 1998)
The cited research is highly controversial and raises concerns about the human consumption of Agaricus brunnescens as a health food. For years, the conventional wisdom was that hydrazines would be destroyed with cooking. Anti-cancer polysaccharides, aromatase-inhibiting compounds, and antioxidants known from Agaricus brunnescens(Kweon 1998), may neutralize the carcinogenic effects of hydrazines, but in my opinion, the jury is still out on this issue. Eating this mushroom raw, especially with free radical inducing foods, is definitely not recommended. And yet, in the United States, up to 80 percent of all Button mushrooms consumed are eaten uncooked. I am disturbed that the most commonly cultivated mushroom in the world has few studies authenticating its beneficial medicinal properties, in stark contrast to the numerous studies on Shiitake, Maitake, Reishi, Yun Zhi, and others. The Portobello mushroom may be gourmet, but in absence of scientific studies, I doubt that, at this time, Agaricus brunnescens can be considered medicinally beneficial.
What to do? The financial future of the Button/Portobello industry may well depend on recognizing the risks, and aggressively developing low agaritine or agaritine-free strains. As analyses have shown more than an eight-fold difference in the concentrations of agaritine in Agaricus brunnescens mushrooms, clearly some strains already in cultivation are much lower in agaritine content than others. Pursuing low agaritine strains should be top research priority within the Agaricus industry, especially within the venue of the spawn producers. Given variations in agaritine levels in existing strains, a breeding program for creating agaritine free strains is a task preeminently achievable in the near future. Certainly the button mushroom industry has clear economic and ethical incentives for doing so."
Research Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
From:https://steemit.com/health/@kennysk...oms-without-cooking-them-at-high-temperatures
From: Carcinogenesis - Button/Crimini/Portabella Mushrooms - Fungi: All Edible, Medicinal, And Other Fungi - Mycotopia
WARNING: Do not eat portobello, cremini, or button mushrooms without cooking them at high temperatures!
First off, did you know that those 3 names are all the exact same kind of mushroom? All 3 of these (the most common mushrooms to be found in any grocery store in the western world), are actually just Agaricus bisporus, the only difference being their age. Buttons are the youngest, and portobellos are the oldest.
Make sure you cook your mushrooms!
These mushrooms contain agaritine & hydrazine, both of which have been found to be cancer-causing, but are luckily both heat-unstable. As Paul says in the video, you should cook all your mushrooms, but especially these ones. If you are boiling these mushrooms, be sure to toss out the water afterwards, as some of the agaritine will be extracted into it.
Cooking Types & Reduction of Agaritine:
Boiling
- 20-25% degraded after 5 minutes
- 90% degraded after 2 hours
- ~25% degraded
- 35-70% degraded
· Never buy mushrooms from China
· Studies have shown mushrooms (as well as rice) from China coming back with levels of arsenic, lead, mercury, and cadmium. Sometimes over the maximum amounts legally allowed, and for me personally and traceable amounts are too much. These mushrooms will often also be treated with sodium sulfite as an "anti-browning agent", which has been known to cause respiratory side effects.
·
· The older mushrooms are better
· The concentration of hydrazine in button mushrooms decreases with the age of the mushroom, meaning a portobello will have less in it than a cremini, and a cremini will have less than a button. No matter which you're going for, make sure to cook it. Maybe mention something to the people running that salad bar with raw mushrooms in it?
·
· Only eat organic mushrooms
· If you hadn't noticed, mushrooms are quite porous, they're almost like little sponges. While this makes them AMAZING to cook with, just soaking up flavors, it also makes them extremely good at absorbing whatever has been sprayed on them or around them. This means any of those wonderfully toxic Monsatan products they're getting sprayed with, are likely making it right to your dinner plate.
From Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms by Paul Stamets
"This mushroom contains compounds that inhibit the enzyme aromatase. Aromatase is associated with tumor growth. Compounds inhibiting aromatase have potential for the treatment of breast cancer(Bankhead, 1999). A diet of mushrooms in mice with implanted tumors showed a decrease in aromatase as mushroom consumption increased. However, Agaricus brunnescens contains hydrazines, carcinogenic compounds that have been thought to dissipate only from prolonged, high temperature heating. More than 80 percent of known hydrazines are carcinogenic. The most notable carcinogenic hydrazine from this mushroom is agaritine, a powerful mutagen, which is activated by the mushroom enzyme tyrosinase, making it heat stable. Enzymes in the digestive system convert agaritine into carcinogenic by-products. The chemical culprits worthy of concern are: 4-(hydroxymethyl)phenylhydrazines and 4(hydroxymethyl)benzene diazonium ions(Walton et al. 1997). Free radicals can also activate Agaricus hydrazines into highly carcinogenic subconstituents (tomasi et al 1987) as well as catalytic processes in the kidneys (Price et al. 1996). Hence, there are several modes of activating agaritine into highly carcinogenic derivatives.
The damaging effects of agaritine's derivatives may be partially suppressed by the mushroom's antioxidants, which, in turn help create host-generated superoxide dismutases (SODs), and the activity of aromatase inhibitors. Walton et al. 1998 asserted, however, that the mutagenic and pre-mutagenic compounds are not affected by quick cooking(10 minutes at 437F/225C) but are only slightly reduced by prolonged heat treatment in boiling water for 4 hours at 212F/100C). A study of blanched, canned mushrooms showed that the agaritine content was reduced tenfold in comparison to fresh mushrooms, from 229mg/kg to 15-18mg/kg(Andersson et al. 1999). However, this reduction may have been due to leaching of the hydrazines into the surrounding water used for blanching in combination with prolonged, high pressure steaming processing used for canning. Another report by Sharman et al. 1990, found most fresh samples of this mushroom had agaritine levels within the range of 80-225mg/kg but with one dried sample having 6,520 mg/kg, a comparatively high level. This result suggests that agaritine production may be a strain specific trait, as this one dried, sliced sample had more than 8 times the agaritine content of other samples in this same study. In contrast, dried Shiitake mushrooms, Lentinula edodes, have either undetectable or extremely low levels of agaritines, in the 0.082 mg/kg range (Stijve et al. 1986; Hashida et al. 1990). Hashida's study reported marked reduction of agaritines from boiling water at 212F(100C) for 10 minutes, a report in direct contradiction of Walton's 1998 study.
A Swiss report estimated that with the average consumption of 4 grams per day of Agaricus bisporus(=Agaricus brunnescens) the lifetime increase in cancer risk would be approximately two cases per hundred thousand lives(Shepard et al. 1995). In a metropolitan area of twenty million residents, approximately the size of Los Angeles, two hundred people would be expected to get cancer in their lifetime from eating Agaricus brunnescens mushrooms, all other factors being equal.
However, other investigations have questioned the cause and effect relationship of agaritine in Button mushrooms and its mutagenic properties(Pilegaard et al. 1997; Matsumoto eet al. 1991; Papaparaskeva et al. 1991; and Pool-Kobel 1990). Benjamin 1995 noted that early studies are controversial and potentially flawed. One study had the intravenous introduction of mushrooms into mice. Another study showed that mice implanted with cancer cells (Sarcoma 180) and then fed dried mushrooms showed inhibited tumor growth(Mori et al. 1986). More recent studies reconfirm that a diet of this mushroom, both raw and baked, induced tumors in mice(Toth et al. 1998)
The cited research is highly controversial and raises concerns about the human consumption of Agaricus brunnescens as a health food. For years, the conventional wisdom was that hydrazines would be destroyed with cooking. Anti-cancer polysaccharides, aromatase-inhibiting compounds, and antioxidants known from Agaricus brunnescens(Kweon 1998), may neutralize the carcinogenic effects of hydrazines, but in my opinion, the jury is still out on this issue. Eating this mushroom raw, especially with free radical inducing foods, is definitely not recommended. And yet, in the United States, up to 80 percent of all Button mushrooms consumed are eaten uncooked. I am disturbed that the most commonly cultivated mushroom in the world has few studies authenticating its beneficial medicinal properties, in stark contrast to the numerous studies on Shiitake, Maitake, Reishi, Yun Zhi, and others. The Portobello mushroom may be gourmet, but in absence of scientific studies, I doubt that, at this time, Agaricus brunnescens can be considered medicinally beneficial.
What to do? The financial future of the Button/Portobello industry may well depend on recognizing the risks, and aggressively developing low agaritine or agaritine-free strains. As analyses have shown more than an eight-fold difference in the concentrations of agaritine in Agaricus brunnescens mushrooms, clearly some strains already in cultivation are much lower in agaritine content than others. Pursuing low agaritine strains should be top research priority within the Agaricus industry, especially within the venue of the spawn producers. Given variations in agaritine levels in existing strains, a breeding program for creating agaritine free strains is a task preeminently achievable in the near future. Certainly the button mushroom industry has clear economic and ethical incentives for doing so."
Research Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
From:https://steemit.com/health/@kennysk...oms-without-cooking-them-at-high-temperatures
Lilac
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 636
Yes. Ray had a newsletter devoted to mushrooms a while back. It must have been discussed here on the forum, but with a quick search, I didn't find anything about it. The upshot was he recommended boiling mushrooms two, or was it three, hours before eating them.
NathanK
Member
It's curious that Ray recommends the young white button mushrooms and not the more mature portobello or baby bellas, which would have less hydrazine due to age
methylenewhite
Member
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,237
NathanK
Member
Yikes. That's astounding. Still doesn't explain the Baby Bella/Crimini, which looks to have an even better profile than the younger White Button mushrooms.
Knowing Ray, I wouldn't be surprised if it came down to, "Well, the white buttons were on sale more often/easier to find" or "I like the taste better than Crimini"
lvysaur
Member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2014
- Messages
- 2,287
I've found that there are two types of white button mushrooms.
The first type is pale beige with dark gills. The second type is pinkish white with pink gills. My guess is that dark one is a mature/decayed version of the pink one.
I have noticed that the pink ones taste way better and sweeter than the first type.
It would not surprise me if the bacterial load in the dark type was much higher. I also anecdotally hate portabellos, but love criminis, so my taste was right at least once. The following two images are both "white button mushrooms":
Last edited:
lvysaur
Member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2014
- Messages
- 2,287
Anecdotally I've never been a fan of enoki either. All the best tasting mushrooms seem to be on the lower end of endotoxin levels. Seems like the lower ones tend to be Asian as well, and they eat more mushrooms in general.
And another interesting website: https://www.mushroom-appreciation.c...an-make-you-sick-if.html#sthash.4jx8Bi6u.dpbs
Fits the NCBI paper to a T.
And another interesting website: https://www.mushroom-appreciation.c...an-make-you-sick-if.html#sthash.4jx8Bi6u.dpbs
Fits the NCBI paper to a T.
Last edited:
methylenewhite
Member
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2018
- Messages
- 1,237
The first one has undeveloped spore bag thing, don't how its called. The second one is already developed. I guess immunoreactivity is related to spores.
boris
Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2019
- Messages
- 2,345
I wonder if Peat has ever gotten threats. He talked about people posing as patients being send by drug companies(?) just asking for prescriptions or something like that. Seeds and pharma are much bigger than the mushroom industry. /I certainly hope not.
Last edited:
Summer
Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2019
- Messages
- 851
"This is an explosive area of conversation..."
Sounds like he was implying they can be weaponized, as silly as that sounds. Nothing surprises me anymore.
Sounds like he was implying they can be weaponized, as silly as that sounds. Nothing surprises me anymore.
L
Lord Cola
Guest
Gives another meaning to "mushroom cloud."
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