Patterns of Thyroid (NDT & T3) Use & Misuse

[Waynish]

How would you explain this repeating pattern in people who seem "low thyroid"?
1) Feeling tired or anxious in the mornings after plenty of sleep
2) Trying NDT or T3 and feeling that mornings become a lot more pleasant
3) Lots more energy, ease, and focus for about 3 days
4) Invariably, the effect wears off: and they start to feel worse every time they take thyroid (immediately & typically for hours)
5) Trying to increase the dose or decrease the dose doesn't help - only going off thyroid helps
6) They adapt to no thyroid within about a day and they feel better off of it
7) Eventually they try it again to help - and #1 starts again

-- Some of them had bad sleep patterns where they like to wake up early,
but often end up stay up until 2-3:30am (and wake up around 12).
-- I've mostly seen it in people who are skinny or in good shape, not in fatter people.
-- Also, the pattern they have using coffee tends to be similar, though not as severe.

Let me know if you've seen this pattern, or perhaps similar patterns.
What do you think are the potential underlying causes for this pattern?

 

[aniciete]

I personally believe people who notice this from thyroid severely underestimate how many calories they really need, especially during a healing phase.

 

[Diokine]

Intake of thyroid increases cortisol turnover and can progress to primary adrenal insufficiency, especially in cases where the pituitary may have been damaged from previous vascular challenge.

 

[FitnessMike]

Intake of thyroid increases cortisol turnover and can progress to primary adrenal insufficiency, especially in cases where the pituitary may have been damaged from previous vascular challenge.

wouldn't start with a very low dose correct the cortisol problem?

but what said would make sense looking at my case, but then i tried all these adrenal cortex products and it further was increasing my rt3

 

[Peater]

I'm intrigued by this thread. @FitnessMike did you ever reach a resolution to these issues?

Intake of thyroid increases cortisol turnover and can progress to primary adrenal insufficiency, especially in cases where the pituitary may have been damaged from previous vascular challenge.

Where did you read about this? I thought thyroid helped fuel the correct metabolism and lower stress hormones.

 

[FitnessMike]

focusing on cortisol is probably the wrong thing for most people, saying that, I haven't tested my cortisol for a while, I will test it with my morning tests in near future as cortisol is included in my test pack

 

[Peater]

focusing on cortisol is probably the wrong thing for most people

How do you mean? It should be more thyroid focused?

 

[FitnessMike]

It should be more thyroid focused?

yes, there is no cortisol without thyroid hormones, the more hypo you get, the less cortisol will be made over time, of course besides the initial phase where stress hormones are super high. Cholesterol, thyroid, and vitamin A are needed to make cortisol remember.

 

[Peater]

yes, there is no cortisol without thyroid hormones, the more hypo you get, the less cortisol will be made over time, of course besides the initial phase where stress hormones are super high. Cholesterol, thyroid, and vitamin A are needed to make cortisol remember.

Is it more adrenaline that hypothyroid people run on then? I've always used my belly as a bit of a cortisol guide and it's always been there whether I was Peating, paleo, or at one point vegan and weighing 11.6 stone at 6ft tall. Always gluten free, but with higher O6 from nuts during vegan times. Although luckily with quite a lot of coconut oil too.

 

[youngsinatra]

yes, there is no cortisol without thyroid hormones, the more hypo you get, the less cortisol will be made over time, of course besides the initial phase where stress hormones are super high. Cholesterol, thyroid, and vitamin A are needed to make cortisol remember.

But cortisol clearance is also really slow in hypothyroidism, so cortisol is actually really high in hypothyroid individuals. That has been demonstrated in human studies for a long time. But this is only shown in people with primary hypothyroidism with multidigit-TSH levels and below range T4 and T3 levels.

I don’t know how that relates to people with subclinical hypothyroidism, mildy elevated TSH but normal T4 & T3.

 

[FitnessMike]

But cortisol clearance is also really slow in hypothyroidism, so cortisol is actually really high in hypothyroid individuals.

Shouldn't this normalize once hypothyroidism theory is addressed? i still understand that very few would benefit from this approach "address adrenals before thyroid" thing, there is a book where Dr. Peatfield was treating people like that, giving them cortex for a few weeks and then thyroid and it seemed to work when the other way around wasn't working.

But this is only shown in people with primary hypothyroidism with multidigit-TSH levels and below range T4 and T3 levels.

I don’t know how that relates to people with subclinical hypothyroidism, mildy elevated TSH but normal T4 & T3.

I don't know how important this is, whatever the case of hypothyroidism, it eventually leads to severe symptoms and has to be addressed in the same way till symptoms are resolved.

I had been in the adrenal fatigue/HPA axis dysfunction wagon for a few years before I came across this community, I wish that would happen sooner

 

[youngsinatra]

Well, If I would be an MD, I‘d order atleast serum cortisol (AM) and DHEA-S, and ideally ACTH before giving a patient any thyroid treatment as giving thyroid to someone with adrenal insufficiency could be fatal. And adrenal insufficiency can make a thyroid panel look like primary hypothyroidism (high TSH, low T4, T3) so it’s important to check.

But in most cases people have „normal“ adrenal gland function. But some people do have solid levels of cortisone (inactive) but low levels of cortisol (active). So their adrenal blood looks fine, but they might still have symptoms of low cortisol. I think only salivary tests can tell that.

But I think most people tend to have elevated cortisol & reverse T3 and thus low thyroid symptoms.

Both thyroid and cortisol need to adressed in my opinion. (Optimize T3:reverse T3 ratio) And I think many would benefit from some form of thyroid supplementation.

 

[Peater]

Would a high cortisol test indicate adrenal sufficiency? (Even though they should not be producing so much, they are capable of it)

Has anyone any experience of those adrenal cortex supplements?

 

[Peater]

Shouldn't this normalize once hypothyroidism theory is addressed? i still understand that very few would benefit from this approach "address adrenals before thyroid" thing, there is a book where Dr. Peatfield was treating people like that, giving them cortex for a few weeks and then thyroid and it seemed to work when the other way around wasn't working.

Thank you for mentioning Dr Peatfield, Mike. I have downloaded the Kindle version of his book. It looks great. I am gutted that he passed away in August, before I knew of him or his work, as he still took clients.

 

[mgrabs]

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