Yonebayashian

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A growing idea in the nu-nutrition sphere is that parasites and bacteria play an essential role in the selective decomposition of diseased tissue; preferentially leaving healthy tissue alone akin to how predators seek out the diseased members of a herd. Such proponents claim that the harm parasites and co cause is due to the body's inability to heal due to chronic malnutrition and/or poisoning. This theory explaining the cause of disease known as "Terrain Theory."

The most interesting niche diet on the internet is the Primal Diet invented by Aajonus Vonderplanitz. This diet follows a lot of bizarre rules in order to emulate the Maasai and Inuit diets of raw meat and low carbohydrates. The most bizarre thing about the diet is that the people who follow it are some of the most attractive and healthy people I know. They intentionally rot meat to eat supplementally, known as "high meat" due to the euphoria it gives after consumption.

I myself have loosely lived on the diet and saw way better results eating rotten meat than following the standard American diet (SAD). When I return to periods of eating raw meat my skin visibly has a glow and I feel rejuvenated. I feel like I'm at a crossroads though, is this actually good? Efficaciously; yeah- but out of curiosity Id love to explore this further.

Going back to the original topic, is there any evidence of people on highly nutritious diets being resistant to parasites? Do they aid detoxification? Why do people cook meat if raw meat is so superior?

One last thing to note is that the primal diet has a natural anti bacteria regimen going for it. Almost no carbs except the natural antibacterial raw honey and extremely high in fat which also tends to be naturally antibacterial.

I am still extremely new to the nutrition world and am just a guy trying to heal himself so please correct me if you see any errors, thank you.
 
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Yonebayashian

Yonebayashian

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Carnivore and Primal really falters when it comes to carbs and I think something in between Ray Peat and Primal is ideal, but Im just wondering specifically about how these different diets reveal the role of pathogens in the body's ecosystem.
 
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Yonebayashian

Yonebayashian

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The two different diets disagree about the quantities of carbs someone should have a day and the sources of them. The only carbs people on the Primal Diet eat are from raw milk or raw honey. They don't even consider honey as a carb though, they say its just enzymes that molecularly look like sugar which is just nonsensical.
 
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I get that maybe in some cases parasites help immunity etc but it depends on the parasite. Ascaris which is one of the most common causes a bunch of issues including paralyzing the intestinal tract and they replicate at an alarming rate. If you go by Dr. Peat's idea of a ' sterile gut " as being optimal, there is no room for parasites and their endotoxin fuckery.
 

Daniil

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The joke is that I was trying to cure Margellon's disease and read the forums, where people also treated many concomitant, including parasitic infections. Years of taking albendazole, mebendazole, ivermectin, etc. Surprisingly, it seems that those who follow diets among other things have the best results. So I don't have an answer to the questions above. Also, if parasites are really the cause of diseases, then this is a reason to panic, because, judging by what I have seen, there are many types of parasites, including those not described, tissue parasites which can crawl anywhere, and they are very difficult to kill and diagnosis, and Western medicine accidentally or intentionally slows down the process (and maybe even specifically infects).
 

PolishSun

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I believe some parasites use people to spread around. If someone with parasites is bullying their close relatives or coworkers, whose immune system drops from stress, then there is a bigger chance for the parasite to spread to other hosts, who have compromised immune system because of the bullying. I personally felt much better after black walnut hulls. As if I fully woke up the first time in the last 10 years.
 

AncestralJoy

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Interesting ideas. I've heard both camps but am by no means an expert or even knowledgeable so its the blind leading the blind here

I did see the infographic thingy I've attached which I havent verified so do your own research there..

There is a framework called German New Medicine which seems to say that injury comes from a shock or scare (perceived) and then whje resolved the healing symptoms arrive and the bacteria dispose of the injured tissue or excessive tissue growth resulting from the shock.

It is sometimes hard to know what is working so I know what you mean feeling great during the tines you do a more primal approach. I felt great as a raw vegan initially and really great as a carnivore lol until I didn't.. Still picking up the pieces of those experiments I think?

I think even those recognizing the dangers of microbes and parasites would agree you have less of a chance of being infected if you are in robust health which is kind of terrain thinking.


Something that I actually meant to write here about is that I dont necessarily think having lots of bugs in your system is a sign of good things. I was reading an old self sufficiency book last night and the section was talking about how you dont need pesticides and chemicals if you are growing and raising a great variety of plants and animals. Sheep ingest the cow parasites and they die while cows ingest the sheep parasites and they die. Chickens eat everyone's parasite and they die etc and same with plants. He suggests never replanting the same thing in the same place each year. Rotate crops so the pests dont get a chance to get a hold. This seems to me that yes there are bugs in nature that can become a problem but there seems to be natural systems that keep them in balance. When we go do wild things like growing corn on the same ground for decades we have massive organism problems.

I'm sure there are some helpful thoughts in there somewhere albeit no concrete direction sorry

IMG_20211220_091515_104.jpg
 
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Yonebayashian

Yonebayashian

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I'm currently undergoing a flu and as I'm passing the peak of it I've really noticed an increase of mental clarity. Time feels like its moving much more slowly for me, which I associate with neurological health. Children feel time moving more slowly and when I would take neurogenesis promoting substances like NSI-189 I would within a few days feel like time was almost at a standstill. This all furthers the theory that the body utilizes the flu as a mass detox.
 

Ben.

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I'm currently undergoing a flu and as I'm passing the peak of it I've really noticed an increase of mental clarity. Time feels like its moving much more slowly for me, which I associate with neurological health. Children feel time moving more slowly and when I would take neurogenesis promoting substances like NSI-189 I would within a few days feel like time was almost at a standstill. This all furthers the theory that the body utilizes the flu as a mass detox.

I agree. The healthier i feel the less fast time seems to pass.
 
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Kayaker

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Does terrain theory also apply to the resilience of plants to viruses?
 

yerrag

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A growing idea in the nu-nutrition sphere is that parasites and bacteria play an essential role in the selective decomposition of diseased tissue; preferentially leaving healthy tissue alone akin to how predators seek out the diseased members of a herd. Such proponents claim that the harm parasites and co cause is due to the body's inability to heal due to chronic malnutrition and/or poisoning. This theory explaining the cause of disease known as "Terrain Theory."

The most interesting niche diet on the internet is the Primal Diet invented by Aajonus Vonderplanitz. This diet follows a lot of bizarre rules in order to emulate the Maasai and Inuit diets of raw meat and low carbohydrates. The most bizarre thing about the diet is that the people who follow it are some of the most attractive and healthy people I know. They intentionally rot meat to eat supplementally, known as "high meat" due to the euphoria it gives after consumption.

I myself have loosely lived on the diet and saw way better results eating rotten meat than following the standard American diet (SAD). When I return to periods of eating raw meat my skin visibly has a glow and I feel rejuvenated. I feel like I'm at a crossroads though, is this actually good? Efficaciously; yeah- but out of curiosity Id love to explore this further.

Going back to the original topic, is there any evidence of people on highly nutritious diets being resistant to parasites? Do they aid detoxification? Why do people cook meat if raw meat is so superior?

One last thing to note is that the primal diet has a natural anti bacteria regimen going for it. Almost no carbs except the natural antibacterial raw honey and extremely high in fat which also tends to be naturally antibacterial.

I am still extremely new to the nutrition world and am just a guy trying to heal himself so please correct me if you see any errors, thank you.

When you say rotten meat, how rotten does it get to be called rotten? Is it called rotten just because it wasn't refrigerated and left in normal room temperature? Is the normal room temperature 25C as in the temperate regions or 30C in tropical regions?

I've eaten raw meat but not rotter meat. I think that raw meat left to rot is saget to eat than cook meat left to rot. I imagine cooked meat will develop molds while raw meat won't. And if so, the meat with molds is the rotten meat.

Isn't it because there are enzymes in the raw meat that would keep the meat from developing molds?

On the subject of terrain theory, maybe the development of molds just shows that cooked meat is a better terrain for molds to grow in than raw meat as a terrain. Just as an unhealthy body is a good terrain for fungal parasites to take its form from less virulent forms such as bacteria.

And if eating raw meat (left to develop in room to room temperature) confers more health than cooked meat, is it also superior to eating meat from freshly slaughtered livestock?

I suppose that is the point of eating rotten meat. But what makes it more healthful to eat? Clearly it would be superior also to dry aged meat as well. And if superior to meat left to develop on lower temperatures, it must be that the growth of microbes in the higher tempera ture to create 'rotten' meat has to be the kind that confers health. And this would be the kinds of microbes that makes us our gut more resilient and less sensitive to insults that come its way.

Is that the idea of Von Der xxxx?
 
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Yonebayashian

Yonebayashian

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The world of consuming rotten meat is such unexplored and risky territory.
When you say rotten meat, how rotten does it get to be called rotten? Is it called rotten just because it wasn't refrigerated and left in normal room temperature? Is the normal room temperature 25C as in the temperate regions or 30C in tropical regions?
It is standard practice in the Primal Diet communities to only keep meat in cold storage and not room temperature. The only exception are raw eggs. They sometimes lightly crack the eggs to allow air into the egg for faster fermentation. I used to love rotten eggs and experienced consistent benefit from them compared to high meat. I had to stop eating them as I moved from Texas to Los Angeles and the difference in bacteria or molds in the air produced a vastly worse tasting product that I think also lacked the same health benefits. Fermented animal product is kind of like wine, it adds sophistication. You quickly learn to prefer it. Ray Peat wrote an entire article about how Americans prefer half rotten steak, the typical state it is in when obtained at supermarkets.
I've eaten raw meat but not rotter meat. I think that raw meat left to rot is saget to eat than cook meat left to rot. I imagine cooked meat will develop molds while raw meat won't. And if so, the meat with molds is the rotten meat.
On the subject of terrain theory, maybe the development of molds just shows that cooked meat is a better terrain for molds to grow in than raw meat as a terrain. Just as an unhealthy body is a good terrain for fungal parasites to take its form from less virulent forms such as bacteria.
Virtually everyone is in consensus: never ever eat cooked rotten foods of any kind. It is those foods in particular that have the most pernicious and violent diseases following consumption. Otherwise I've seen people eat year-old rotten raw brain and be fine and experience only euphoria. I saw a guy chug a quart jar of month old high liver. What did some people in though was rotten pasteurized yoghurt that left them debilitated with C Diff for months. I feel really bad for them, when I was gung ho about this in the beginning I ate some rotten pasteurized foods too, thank God nothing happened.
And if eating raw meat (left to develop in room to room temperature) confers more health than cooked meat, is it also superior to eating meat from freshly slaughtered livestock?

I think I overdid it as its suggested to only consume supplementally. I recently learned that protein digesting bacteria produce high amounts of ammonia which is very hard on the kidneys. I consumed a large quantity of rotten meat due to being poor and all of my available protein went high. Afterwards I had a lot of kidney pain for a couple of months. Its probably optimal to just eat fresh raw meat and some cooked meat regularly, something already traditional for many primitive tribes.
But what makes it more healthful to eat? Clearly it would be superior also to dry aged meat as well. And if superior to meat left to develop on lower temperatures, it must be that the growth of microbes in the higher tempera ture to create 'rotten' meat has to be the kind that confers health. And this would be the kinds of microbes that makes us our gut more resilient and less sensitive to insults that come its way.

I don't know the answer to this, for the average person it might not be healthful at all or it potentially could be extremely healthful. Lots to explore.

There isn't any tradition of high temperature fermentation so I would strongly suggest not experimenting with it. The only tribe that has a tradition of high meat are the Inuit; who live where the entire landscape is one big freezer. There is theory that the only reason why they even engage in the practice in the first place is because in their carb starved environment the fermentation of meats creates carbohydrate byproducts. High meat might be extremely healthful for its potential ability to diversify gut biome, which would make sense how its beneficial only supplementally on occasion. Aajonus Vonderplanitz posits that the brain can only utilize very finely digested nutrients, but who can take anything he says at face value?
 

yerrag

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The world of consuming rotten meat is such unexplored and risky territory.

It is standard practice in the Primal Diet communities to only keep meat in cold storage and not room temperature. The only exception are raw eggs. They sometimes lightly crack the eggs to allow air into the egg for faster fermentation. I used to love rotten eggs and experienced consistent benefit from them compared to high meat. I had to stop eating them as I moved from Texas to Los Angeles and the difference in bacteria or molds in the air produced a vastly worse tasting product that I think also lacked the same health benefits. Fermented animal product is kind of like wine, it adds sophistication. You quickly learn to prefer it. Ray Peat wrote an entire article about how Americans prefer half rotten steak, the typical state it is in when obtained at supermarkets.


Virtually everyone is in consensus: never ever eat cooked rotten foods of any kind. It is those foods in particular that have the most pernicious and violent diseases following consumption. Otherwise I've seen people eat year-old rotten raw brain and be fine and experience only euphoria. I saw a guy chug a quart jar of month old high liver. What did some people in though was rotten pasteurized yoghurt that left them debilitated with C Diff for months. I feel really bad for them, when I was gung ho about this in the beginning I ate some rotten pasteurized foods too, thank God nothing happened.


I think I overdid it as its suggested to only consume supplementally. I recently learned that protein digesting bacteria produce high amounts of ammonia which is very hard on the kidneys. I consumed a large quantity of rotten meat due to being poor and all of my available protein went high. Afterwards I had a lot of kidney pain for a couple of months. Its probably optimal to just eat fresh raw meat and some cooked meat regularly, something already traditional for many primitive tribes.


I don't know the answer to this, for the average person it might not be healthful at all or it potentially could be extremely healthful. Lots to explore.

There isn't any tradition of high temperature fermentation so I would strongly suggest not experimenting with it. The only tribe that has a tradition of high meat are the Inuit; who live where the entire landscape is one big freezer. There is theory that the only reason why they even engage in the practice in the first place is because in their carb starved environment the fermentation of meats creates carbohydrate byproducts. High meat might be extremely healthful for its potential ability to diversify gut biome, which would make sense how its beneficial only supplementally on occasion. Aajonus Vonderplanitz posits that the brain can only utilize very finely digested nutrients, but who can take anything he says at face value?
Thanks for the clarification.

I had thought rotten to be some raw meat smoldering in tropical heat to earn the description. Glad I'm wrong.

I have long desired to eat raw meat but only limited to beef and lamb. Pork isn't safe from trichinosis and I find it hard to warm up to chicken.

The reason I want to is because it is rich in enzymes, and my pancreas don't need to produce enzymes to digest and so the enzymes produced by the pancreas can be conserved.

But why I don't do it is because I don't trust the source of meat. If it's from a slaughterhouse with poor sanitary procedures I may be eating meat with fecal content.

But I occasionally buy lamb and freeze it for two weeks and then make ground meat from it, which I eat carpaccio style, with lemon juice, salt, pepper, and capers.
 
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Matestube

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The world of consuming rotten meat is such unexplored and risky territory.

It is standard practice in the Primal Diet communities to only keep meat in cold storage and not room temperature. The only exception are raw eggs. They sometimes lightly crack the eggs to allow air into the egg for faster fermentation. I used to love rotten eggs and experienced consistent benefit from them compared to high meat. I had to stop eating them as I moved from Texas to Los Angeles and the difference in bacteria or molds in the air produced a vastly worse tasting product that I think also lacked the same health benefits. Fermented animal product is kind of like wine, it adds sophistication. You quickly learn to prefer it. Ray Peat wrote an entire article about how Americans prefer half rotten steak, the typical state it is in when obtained at supermarkets.


Virtually everyone is in consensus: never ever eat cooked rotten foods of any kind. It is those foods in particular that have the most pernicious and violent diseases following consumption. Otherwise I've seen people eat year-old rotten raw brain and be fine and experience only euphoria. I saw a guy chug a quart jar of month old high liver. What did some people in though was rotten pasteurized yoghurt that left them debilitated with C Diff for months. I feel really bad for them, when I was gung ho about this in the beginning I ate some rotten pasteurized foods too, thank God nothing happened.


I think I overdid it as its suggested to only consume supplementally. I recently learned that protein digesting bacteria produce high amounts of ammonia which is very hard on the kidneys. I consumed a large quantity of rotten meat due to being poor and all of my available protein went high. Afterwards I had a lot of kidney pain for a couple of months. Its probably optimal to just eat fresh raw meat and some cooked meat regularly, something already traditional for many primitive tribes.


I don't know the answer to this, for the average person it might not be healthful at all or it potentially could be extremely healthful. Lots to explore.

There isn't any tradition of high temperature fermentation so I would strongly suggest not experimenting with it. The only tribe that has a tradition of high meat are the Inuit; who live where the entire landscape is one big freezer. There is theory that the only reason why they even engage in the practice in the first place is because in their carb starved environment the fermentation of meats creates carbohydrate byproducts. High meat might be extremely healthful for its potential ability to diversify gut biome, which would make sense how its beneficial only supplementally on occasion. Aajonus Vonderplanitz posits that the brain can only utilize very finely digested nutrients, but who can take anything he says at face value?

I only ever got sick from cooked foods that were let in the open air for too long.

Last year I experimented quite a bit with fermenting raw meat: never once got sick.
It didn't make me euphoric or healthier either.
I left raw liver and raw muscle meat in jars on my balcony for 3 months, when the temperature averaged 10 degrees.
Would air out jars once every 3 days.

The taste is amazing, like nothing else.

Also fermented raw milk into kefir.
Didn't get much from it apart some gas.
 

sunny

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Interesting ideas. I've heard both camps but am by no means an expert or even knowledgeable so its the blind leading the blind here

I did see the infographic thingy I've attached which I havent verified so do your own research there..

There is a framework called German New Medicine which seems to say that injury comes from a shock or scare (perceived) and then whje resolved the healing symptoms arrive and the bacteria dispose of the injured tissue or excessive tissue growth resulting from the shock.

It is sometimes hard to know what is working so I know what you mean feeling great during the tines you do a more primal approach. I felt great as a raw vegan initially and really great as a carnivore lol until I didn't.. Still picking up the pieces of those experiments I think?

I think even those recognizing the dangers of microbes and parasites would agree you have less of a chance of being infected if you are in robust health which is kind of terrain thinking.


Something that I actually meant to write here about is that I dont necessarily think having lots of bugs in your system is a sign of good things. I was reading an old self sufficiency book last night and the section was talking about how you dont need pesticides and chemicals if you are growing and raising a great variety of plants and animals. Sheep ingest the cow parasites and they die while cows ingest the sheep parasites and they die. Chickens eat everyone's parasite and they die etc and same with plants. He suggests never replanting the same thing in the same place each year. Rotate crops so the pests dont get a chance to get a hold. This seems to me that yes there are bugs in nature that can become a problem but there seems to be natural systems that keep them in balance. When we go do wild things like growing corn on the same ground for decades we have massive organism problems.

I'm sure there are some helpful thoughts in there somewhere albeit no concrete direction sorry

View attachment 31531
Interesting. What is the source of the infographic?
 

Gânico

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I think raw is superior in pretty much every aspect, cooking is only good for elimination of possible pathogens, and should be done as quick as possible to avoid toxic degradation products.

I once asked Ray about raw animal foods, he said milk, eggs and honey are the safest to consume while raw because their natural germicidal function, and advises to cook meat just long enough to disinfect, about 145 degrees F.
 

Matestube

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I think raw is superior in pretty much every aspect, cooking is only good for elimination of possible pathogens, and should be done as quick as possible to avoid toxic degradation products.

I once asked Ray about raw animal foods, he said milk, eggs and honey are the safest to consume while raw because their natural germicidal function, and advises to cook meat just long enough to disinfect, about 145 degrees F.

Well, we just assessed that there is no such thing as "pathogens" when food is raw.
So cooking is nonsense in any case.
 

Gânico

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Well, we just assessed that there is no such thing as "pathogens" when food is raw.
So cooking is nonsense in any case.
I don't think so.. raw food, especially meat sometimes can be contaminated with pathogens (biological and chemical), but i think if you are heathy enough and have good nutrition you can mitigate their harmful effects...

Also, like OP said, being on aajonus style primal diet and shilling for parasites and bacteria doesn't make any sense, i mean, his whole dietary recommendations are anti parasitic and anti microbial.
 
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