Panic Rush After Eating Bananas/taking Potassium Salt

Terma

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I understand. But, I as I said, I tried some antibacterial things too. And any of them didn't helped at all. Garlic juice, cinnamon, 1 Gr Amoxicillin, Sacc. Boulardii, Coconut oil (in my coffee), Probiotic... Endotoxemia really makes sense but if true, why I didn't get any benefit from those? Is it just a too big problem to be solved by eating garlic and amoxicillin?
All I can tell you is none of those made a dent in my nearly life-long gut problems (didn't see coconut), just that there are lots more herbals on your side of the ocean than I tried. Thanks for the details. So they got you on iron+zinc for a month before the fluoxetine+triamcinolone acetonide? Iron regulation is involved in damage, regulating genes, bacteria, copper. Zinc can be overdone, copper. Do you remember dose of each mineral?

All I can very lightly suggest is that folate levels relate to B12 usage and therefore anemia, meaning you might have been better off supplementing hydroxycobalamin or methylcobalamin with low or intermittent doses of zinc for that problem, or at least trying it as a safer alternative first. At this point I'm not sure how much you'd benefit from B12, but gut problems and deficiencies impair its absorption and usage (but you'd have to fix potassium at before or at the same time). Make sure your diet contains copper (maybe liver, which contains B12). These are not prescriptions or anything I'm sure you know. I'm just saying by pure coincidence the 2 minerals I have the hardest time getting are potassium and copper.
 
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Astolfo

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Do you remember dose of each mineral?

FerroZinc: Every 1 capsule contains; 80 mg Iron fumarate, 25 mg Zinc sulphate monohydrate, 0.4 folic acid, 25 mg Vitamin C.

I forgot that it contained some more things.

or at least trying it as a safer alternative first

I wasn't aware of anything before my pssd. Unfortunately, i took what doctors prescribed.

I eat liver time to time. Also I was taking a tablet of B-complex occasionaly which contains Methylcobalamine. So even if im deficient in B vitamins, I don't think it will get resolved by diet.

I forgot to say a really important thing. Dark chocolate (70 grams %70) makes me temporarily better. My cognition, vision, fine motor control, all improves a bit. But one strange thing I noticed that, at the first time when I ate 70 grams of d chocolate, I got a day long mild headache. I think there is a connection with my neurocognitive symptoms and vasoconstruction/vasodilation.

I'm now sending my blood test results to everybody who posted in this topic.

a tiny question: Is it ok to take 100 mg thiamine HCL right after a cup of OJ or 1-2 hours after a cup of coffee(antithiamine factors)? I'm currently taking 100x3 mg a day. So far it seems it even worsened my metabolism (I'm getting hungry, feel of scraping at my belly, more frequently now)

one more thing to mention: OJ is very bad for my satiety. I get hungry after half an hour whenever I drink OJ.
 
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Fidelio

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To me it seems pretty obvious what’s going on. Your extremely insulin insensitive, probably bordering on pre-diabetic due to an extreme potassium deficiency. Potassium is necessary for insulin sensitivity (and thyroid health).
I also suspect you have a severe magnesium deficiency. Disregard what your serum blood tests show, the body will not let serum levels go out of range unless you are running on empty. The body will pull magnesium and potassium out of muscle before it ever allows serum levels to fall.
Magnesium is necessary for retention of potassium, hence making your problem much worse.
Fluoxetine, the medication you took, increases magnesium needs AND blocks several potassium channels.

The reason why you get temporary relief with dark chocolate is due to its relative high magnesium content.
What you need to do is consume 100g of raw cocao per day and 1-2kg of purple sweet potato. If you don’t have access to raw cocao use the highest % dark chocolate you can find. If you don’t have access to purple sweet potato use normal white potato but be careful to peel them thoroughly and do not consume for longer than a few weeks to prevent solanine related issues - switch to other high potassium food sources after this, aim to get 1+g of magnesium per day from food and 7+g of potassium. Stop using potassium supplements, only potassium bicarbonate is safe but it’s so abundant in healthy foods I don’t see why you’d ever need to supplement it. Track with cronometer. You should also add 100g of spinach per day for vitamin k.

You can eat plenty well in Turkey, but most Turkish dishes are not healthy.
Focus on whole foods, Turkey produces some of the best fruits and vegetables in the world due to the excellent soil conditions.
 

Terma

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I eat liver time to time. Also I was taking a tablet of B-complex occasionaly which contains Methylcobalamine. So even if im deficient in B vitamins, I don't think it will get resolved by diet.
Yeah but I checked your post and it said 50mcg methylcobalamin/pill. People on ME/CFS/I were taking 5000mcg+ well in thousands to make up for absorptive and tissue distribution/absorption issues thought to occur (with a minimum R5P/B2, methylfolate or other things - notably copper/potassium, in Freddd's personal/friends experience for example). Even if you take huge amounts of MB12 it doesn't necessarily get used properly by cells so people have to saturate their levels to get relief (it's not the best approach but when you don't know the reasons and the therapy keeps you alive...). Personally I don't rely on it anymore but I would if I had to. I don't know if B12 in cells is your problem, point is just absorption/cellular use of nutrients from supplements can totally throw you off track.

Usually the immediate effect dark chocolate is its chemicals like theobromine/caffeine/ethanolamides maybe/etc. but yeah there was something about it that would affect blood (blood pressure...). If you could tolerate it again it'd net you some copper but obviously don't force it. I don't bother with B1 that much, it never helped me (except as minor adjunct nootropic), so I just take a dose like 50mg 1/2x a week maybe.

I think 80mg iron daily (I assume) for 1 month was risky, for gut/liver health and copper. Zinc wasn't that high might still affect absorption other minerals when taken with food. Your hematocrit/RBC is top of range generally (I went through real quick). Somewhat familiar. Also regular disclaimer: your supp(s) likely contained Folic Acid which is the worst form of folate (much superior from food and methylfolate). That doesn't help the folate/B12 thing at all and even worsens it in some people.
 
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Astolfo

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Yeah but I checked your post and it said 50mcg methylcobalamin/pill. People on ME/CFS/I were taking 5000mcg+ well in thousands to make up for absorptive and tissue distribution/absorption issues thought to occur (with a minimum R5P/B2, methylfolate or other things - notably copper/potassium, in Freddd's personal/friends experience for example). Even if you take huge amounts of MB12 it doesn't necessarily get used properly by cells so people have to saturate their levels to get relief (it's not the best approach but when you don't know the reasons and the therapy keeps you alive...).

Actually chronic B12 deficiency symptoms matches up. I even know a person from an another forum that has same neurodegenerative problems like me.

  • Weakness, tiredness, or lightheadedness :thumbup
  • Heart palpitations and shortness of breath :thumbup
  • Pale skin :thumbup
  • A smooth tongue :thumbup:?:
  • Constipation, diarrhea, loss of appetite, or gas :thumbup
  • Nerve problems like numbness(No) or tingling(No), muscle weakness(Maybe, yes), and problems walking(motor control, fine motor skills) :thumbup (Also myoclonus and fasiculations)
  • Vision loss :?: I don't see what I'm looking as broader as I used to. So I guess :thumbup
  • Mental problems like depression, memory loss, or behavioral changes :thumbup

But I had tried sublingual 1000 mcg methylcobalamine as well (Nutraxin B12 Vitamini (1000 Mcg) Dil Altı Tableti), at the early times of my pssd. I don't remember it had a benefit. I think it would be a good idea to give it a try though. Now, at 5000 mcg doses. Is there any overdose risk?


@Fidelio I'm gonna do. Thanks for response. Do you have an idea why bananas gave me an unbearable panic rush ? I literally had a trauma last week and I'm scared to eat any banana again. Is it a normal response? I get same panic feeling from Oranges too, but it's milder compared to.

I had a magnesium supplement at home (200 mg elemental --> glycinate,citrat,malate). It was helping me a bit about sleepines but haven't seen any other improvement. I guess I need much much more.

Is Magnesium Hydroxide okay? I plan to add it to some vinegar or OJ. I guess it would be the cheapeast and eaisest way to get a lot of magnesium.
 

Terma

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There's no guarantee you'd respond to it because there are other absorption/utilization factors you can lack (aminos/minerals/vitamins) for it to work, e.g. lithium was popular, something with histidine, etc. plus there's a huge problem with supplement quality (again see Freddd's posts). The only surefire way to know are methylcobalamin injections. You can't really overdose on B12 (concerns like those by Paul Jaminet are more long-term i.e. aging) but if you get it tested again after 5,000mcg regularly, the blood levels can be very high since you're trying to saturate tissues and professionals usually tell you to stop it since they don't like to see a high number.
 
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Astolfo

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There's no guarantee you'd respond to it because there are other absorption/utilization factors you can lack (aminos/minerals/vitamins) for it to work, e.g. lithium was popular, something with histidine, etc. plus there's a huge problem with supplement quality (again see Freddd's posts). The only surefire way to know are methylcobalamin injections. You can't really overdose on B12 (concerns like those by Paul Jaminet are more long-term i.e. aging) but if you get it tested again after 5,000mcg regularly, the blood levels can be very high since you're trying to saturate tissues and professionals usually tell you to stop it since they don't like to see a high number.

So I guess I have to look for 'utilization' factors because I don't think I have much problem with absorption. Here, it's from 07/2018, 3 months later when I stopped fluoxetine and I don't remember my symptoms being improved while taking rather high doses of B12. Or did you mean absorption by cells? I don't know how much the B12 level should be before having an exact idea about whether b12 is the problem or not. I'm gonna look on phoenixrising for this.

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I'm peeling more than before, my urine is nearly always so clear. I remember I used to pee a lot yellowish(I was living a bit dehydrated). But now it's hugely changed. My high eGFR could be showing a kidney problem, somebody on pssdforum has said me. Maybe they are trying to excrete something in excess. Maybe my kidney, its pores, is damaged too?

Do you think it's could be a encephalopathy caused from mitochondria? Inefficient energy metabolism --> lactic acid --> low urea excreation --> urea inhibits NO --> vasoconstruction --> ischemia ? I remember my urine ph was like 5.5, I wish I got checked my blood and urine lactate levels too.

I remember helen said there is something with nadph oxidase too but im now too cognitively impaired to comprehend and think these things. My brain is literally getting half every 6 months or so.

Also, do you think it's a good idea to add sodium bicarbonate to my OJ? As it has sodium, could it worsen the potassium deficiency?
 
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Terma

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That's what I meant, the blood level isn't that meaningful.

They're not exactly off the charts numbers and elevated urea is basically expected in high salt or dehydration, I take it to mean your body's under stress or it can just be a side effect of gut problems, and kidneys can be affected several ways here, but it's not necessarily anything serious.

Yes NADPH oxidase (NOX) is major cause of hypertension and problems and tied into angiotensin. It remains functional during hypoxia: Hypoxia activates NADPH oxidase to increase [ROS]i and [Ca2+]i through the mitochondrial ROS-PKCepsilon signaling axis in pulmonary artery smooth m... - PubMed - NCBI

You'd really have to tally up the Na+/K+ content of your diet to know if more Na+ is a good idea, but I was doing that personally with acidic fruits.

***

Ideally you'd want to get a test for homocysteine to make sure that's getting cleared: Homocysteine Test: MedlinePlus Lab Test Information
But over here physicians don't prescribe it unless they suspect it iirc for cardiovascular problem
 
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Astolfo

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You'd really have to tally up the Na+/K+ content of your diet to know if more Na+ is a good idea, but I was doing that personally with acidic fruits.

I'm gonna start to counting my macros and micros from chronometer today. Especially for my high potassium diet.

I don't think they will check my homocysteine levels. Maybe only possible if I gather enough money and go to a private clinic. But I barely gathered enough for B1, so it's not going to happen soon I guess.

May I ask something with potassium? I searched angiotensin system and potassium on google and this was the first thing I saw. Do you think 'pushing' my potassium intake higher and ignoring the terrible panic will do good? Even my stomach doesn't feel good, kind of sour, because a lot of panic and ocd.

BLOCKADE OF BRAIN ANGIOTENSIN II AT1 RECEPTORS AMELIORATES STRESS, ANXIETY, BRAIN INFLAMMATION AND ISCHEMIA: THERAPEUTIC IMPLICATIONS

Excessive brain AT1 receptor activity is associated with exaggerated sympathetic and hormonal response to stress, vulnerability to cerebrovascular ischemia and brain inflammation, processes leading to neuronal injury. In animal models, inhibition of brain AT1 receptor activity with systemically administered Angiotensin II receptor blockers is neuroprotective; it reduces exaggerated stress responses and anxiety, prevents stress-induced gastric ulcerations, decreases vulnerability to ischemia and stroke, reverses chronic cerebrovascular inflammation, and reduces acute inflammatory responses produced by bacterial endotoxin.

Is it really safe to keep upping my potassium intake? A little of potassim salt(%50) and couple of bananas I ate in a few days was enough to give me a new trauma and panic disorder (not anxiety as I'm still cognitively damaged i think)


I will also drink some Magnesium hydroxide + vinegar or sparkling water to get extra magnesium.
 
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Terma

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I would really not ingest huge doses of potassium and rather make a potassium:sodium solution to sip plus from food where possible. Otherwise sounds alright.
 
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Astolfo

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I would really not ingest huge doses of potassium and rather make a potassium:sodium solution to sip plus from food where possible. Otherwise sounds alright.
Nope, even a few slices of potato is enough to make me panicky.

Potassium interacts with aldosterone. Aldosterone interacts with eGFR, though i don't know in which way. I wish I could still read things, I'm barely understanding the results section now.

Plasma Aldosterone and Glomerular Filtration in Hypertensive Patients With Preserved Renal Function | Revista Española de Cardiología (English Edition)
Role of the Sympathetic Nervous System in Regulating Renin and Aldosterone Production in Man
Reversible Sympathetic Overactivity in Hypertensive Patients with Primary Aldosteronism
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...nded-extracellular-volume-While_fig2_24213760
Aldosterone and glomerular filtration – observations in the general population

Obesity-is-characterized-by-elevated-aldosterone-and-expanded-extracellular-volume-While.jpg
 

maillol

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This sounds like the symptoms I get when my cortisol is too low, and adrenaline steps in. This could be a result of all that thiamine you've been taking. Aspirin also lowers cortisol.

Caffeine and potassium both stimulate the secretion of cortisol and in my case help.

However, in your case potassium is making you feel worse which is strange so I could be completely wrong. How does caffeine make you feel? There is often surprisingly more caffeine in chocolate than you might think.

My guesses are... the high dose thiamine is preventing the cortisol secretion normally produced by potassium leading to even more adrenaline OR you have adrenal insufficiency for some reason.

These are not suggestions, I don't want you to follow my advice and end up getting worse but if it was me this is what I would do:

Stop taking thiamine and aspirin and anything else that is known to lower cortisol.
See how caffeine makes you feel, keep up normal potassium intake, keep sodium intake low/normal.
Try some glucocorticoid like prednisone 5mg (I highly recommend against this long term but if it works it would confirm the low cortisol theory).

Hope you can feel better soon.
 
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Astolfo

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@Terma
This sounds like the symptoms I get when my cortisol is too low, and adrenaline steps in. This could be a result of all that thiamine you've been taking. Aspirin also lowers cortisol.

To be honest, thiamine didn't have a profound effect on me. I guess I would noticed if it had.

However, in your case potassium is making you feel worse which is strange so I could be completely wrong. How does caffeine make you feel? There is often surprisingly more caffeine in chocolate than you might think.

Coffee gives me a slight mental boost but also harms my cognition in a different way. I feel slightly better when im off coffee.

My guesses are... the high dose thiamine is preventing the cortisol secretion normally produced by potassium leading to even more adrenaline OR you have adrenal insufficiency for some reason.

I only started taking thiamine, it's been a few days. So no need to add extra complexity.

OR you have adrenal insufficiency for some reason.

Could be. I used to be extremely anxious pre-pssd (i also have asperger's). I lost my anxious thoughts by the time. Also I have a very bad gut problem. I think I have sympathetic overactivation or dominance.

I upped my salt intake and actually i feel less stressful i think. Also I bought 100 grams of mag oxide(not hydroxide). I regretted buying this from because i learned that it only being solved in acid. I can't make mag bicarbonate,acetate,citrate from it. I took approx 2 grams yesterday and at the night I got a diarrhea. Today, I feel actually a bit better,especially my mood. But I have headache. Similar to what happened when i first ate dark chocolate. Could be vasodilation?

Hypomagnesaemia raises the sensitivity of cerebral arteries to CO2 which in turn favours cerebral vasospasm and headache (Thomas et al., 1994).

In ischemic or hypoxic tissue, Mg antagonizes calcium’s effects and decreases reactive oxygen species production through phopholipases, lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase pathways. Likewise, in conditions associated with cerebral ischemia, Mg deficiency promotes vasoconstriction of cerebral and coronary arteries, as well as anoxic depolarizations and cortical spreading depression. Accordingly, Mg supplementation potentially plays a neuroprotective role (Turner et al., 2004).

"The loss of magnesium contributes to vasoconstriction, inflammation, and bone loss." RP

Ray Peat said:
One of the things that happen when there isn't enough sodium in the diet is that more aldosterone is synthesized. Aldosterone causes less sodium to be lost in the urine and sweat, but it achieves that at the expense of the increased loss of potassium, magnesium, and probably calcium. The loss of potassium leads to vasoconstriction, which contributes to heart and kidney failure and high blood pressure. The loss of magnesium contributes to vasoconstriction, inflammation, and bone loss. Magnesium deficiency is extremely common, but a little extra salt in the diet makes it easier to retain the magnesium in our foods.

Headache, diarrhea and tinnitus(probably unrelated) worries me a bit. I think I would better drink a cup of milk everyday to augment calcium loss effects. Also diarrhea could cause further electrolyte depletion. Do you think it's better to buy mag hydroxide and mix it with lemon juice?
 

maillol

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@Terma


To be honest, thiamine didn't have a profound effect on me. I guess I would noticed if it had.



Coffee gives me a slight mental boost but also harms my cognition in a different way. I feel slightly better when im off coffee.



I only started taking thiamine, it's been a few days. So no need to add extra complexity.



Could be. I used to be extremely anxious pre-pssd (i also have asperger's). I lost my anxious thoughts by the time. Also I have a very bad gut problem. I think I have sympathetic overactivation or dominance.

I upped my salt intake and actually i feel less stressful i think. Also I bought 100 grams of mag oxide(not hydroxide). I regretted buying this from because i learned that it only being solved in acid. I can't make mag bicarbonate,acetate,citrate from it. I took approx 2 grams yesterday and at the night I got a diarrhea. Today, I feel actually a bit better,especially my mood. But I have headache. Similar to what happened when i first ate dark chocolate. Could be vasodilation?









Headache, diarrhea and tinnitus(probably unrelated) worries me a bit. I think I would better drink a cup of milk everyday to augment calcium loss effects. Also diarrhea could cause further electrolyte depletion. Do you think it's better to buy mag hydroxide and mix it with lemon juice?

Sounds like you're improving which is good to hear.

I personally never really got any benefits from magnesium but I think mag oxide and hydroxide are both fine. I made magnesium bicarbonate once and all it did was empty me out. It is true that mag oxide only dissolves in acid, stomach acid is sufficient for this.
Magnesium Oxide Is (surprisingly) Better Than Citrate

If it's giving you diarrhea I'd just lower the dose. That vasoconstriction quote is interesting.
 
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Astolfo

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Im taking magnesium in smaller doses now.

@Terma @Amazoniac I just ate 3 small-medium sized potatoes. Now, im trembling and shaking uncontrollably. Strong adrenaline rush. My heart feels like it’s gonna explode.

I really don’t know why such small doses of potassium makes me this bad. I ate my potatoes with NaCl salt and also i drunk ayran too. I think i consumed enough salt but still i have stress and adrenaline reaction.
 

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Im taking magnesium in smaller doses now.

@Terma @Amazoniac I just ate 3 small-medium sized potatoes. Now, im trembling and shaking uncontrollably. Strong adrenaline rush. My heart feels like it’s gonna explode.

I really don’t know why such small doses of potassium makes me this bad. I ate my potatoes with NaCl salt and also i drunk ayran too. I think i consumed enough salt but still i have stress and adrenaline reaction.
You would have to consider what salt of cardiarrestium (K) you're using and if it's suitable for your state. Supplements are dispensible, probably just a complicator for you. And in case of dietary cardiarrestium, it could simply mean plant foods that you're having trouble digesting. Butter¹ and ginger² should be protective with starches, but they have to appeal.

¹ Not sure if the yogurt provided enough fat and there could be additional confounders.
² There are specific properties that may also be of relevance to you.

You could be running low on zinc since you're under stress and (if I remember it right) consume mostly cheese as protein. The intestinal troubles and panic reactions might be related. All nutrients involved in tryptophan metabolism are worth paying attention to.

I would focus on things that can suppress microbial activity: killcium (Raj), venom D, zinc, boron, balanced proteins that are easy to digest.

Sun exposure has been suggested many times for you by different members, but it's ignored. I don't know if this is because it's already part of your life or you're shying away due to intolerance (it depletes practically everything, evident when it precipitates the classic nutrient deficiencies, so it would be understandable).

Do you has unusual cravings for nuts or whole grains? It can be a sign of mineral deficiency.

If you're gaining fat at an uncontrollable rate, I would take it easy on dietary fat (or perhaps ingest dangerous doses of killcium along).

Since you mentioned feeling cold, putting on as many layers as you find necessary to relieve the burden from the body is a good idea. Whenever possible, set your environment in the least taxing way while you're recovering from this. Average temperature somewhere in Turkey can be warm (I just checked, had to add 'country' since there were recipes), but not body temperature warm: it's an energy that can be spared.

For now, that's all I got.
 
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Astolfo

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@Amazoniac I understand the importance of endotoxins, but no. It's not something like indigestion. I get same stress and anxiety response from orange juice, potatoes, bananas, aspirin, lite-salt(%50 potassium).

What does aspirin have in common with potassium-rich foods or potassium itself? I think this could be an explanation:

Aspirin lowers Na/K ratio, try taking sodium bicarbonate to keep it balanced.
In healthy adults, short-term aspirin administration in therapeutic doses has no effect on creatinine clearance, urine volume, osmolar clearance, or sodium and potassium excretion. However, in predisposed individuals with glomerulonephritis, cirrhosis, and chronic renal insufficiency, and in children with congestive heart failure, short-term aspirin use in therapeutic doses may precipitate reversible acute renal failure.
"...Examples include aspirin, ibuprofen, and naproxen.
If taken on a regular basis, they can harm your
kidneys and cause potassium levels to raise."

https://www.kidney.org/sites/default/files/01-10-7269_ABG_PatBro_Hyperkalemiap7.pdf

The day after I ate 2-3 small potatoes, I feel sharper and more stressfull(actually I used to be like this). This really seems like an aldosterone isssue. What makes HPA axis underactive, aldosterone oversensitive to potassium, and body to feminize in long term? How a few dose of fluoxetine triggered this disaster for me? I think fluoxetine first damaged my adrenals, because my first symptom was oversleepiness. then, cognitive deteoriation and metabolic problems took part. How am i gonna fix myself? By eating tons of potatoes daily? Doesn't high aldosterone damage kidneys? Does high eGFR show that my kidneys are already damaged?
 

Terma

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One or more kinds of honey (not sure if clover, unpasteurized local, organic, etc.) has insulin-regulating properties and little K+ (can contain some salicylic acid, methylglyoxal iirc not sure):
Honey - A Novel Antidiabetic Agent
Those other things like bananas and potatoes are best avoided for people with glucose regulation issues, K+ or not, and eating them without acetic acid/vinegar and fat may aggravate that. Even maple syrup contains abscisic acid which might help insulin problems (though potentially aggravate obesity in amounts if e.g. PPARgamma):
https://www.researchgate.net/public...scisic_acid_with_potential_benefits_to_health
Abscisic Acid: A Novel Nutraceutical for Glycemic Control
Chronic Intake of Micrograms of Abscisic Acid Improves Glycemia and Lipidemia in a Human Study and in High-Glucose Fed Mice
(someone could always suggest wheatgrass but that's a way last resort)
 

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