Panic Rush After Eating Bananas/taking Potassium Salt

Terma

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Hey! Simplest answer: diarrhea mineral loss. Potassium is easily my worst mineral and some days my gut won't even hold onto it. Cortisol/aldosterone are well-known to lower it: Hypothetical hormonal mechanism by which potassium-rich diets benefit patients with rheumatoid arthritis. - PubMed - NCBI and since it's a popular topic, activation of renin-angiotensin: Potassium homeostasis and renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system inhibitors. - PubMed - NCBI (quantitatively the former might be more important, depends on you). Sorry I didn't enough else to contribute this time period. I would guess the symptoms now have to do with glucose regulation.
 
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Astolfo

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@Terma Thanks!!

My panic problem seems remain even after a day of abstaining from bananas. But I guess I have to wait longer to see if this panic will alleviate or not.

Also eating something (carb,protein,vegetable, doesn't matter) making my problem worse. After eating something sugary, I don't also get a relief. I'm in panic constantly, i doubt blood glucose is the problem here.

So, potassium increases cortisol biosynthesis. I couldn't get it as I'm not able to read anymore but I guess it elevates adrenaline too.

Here is my blood test result. It appears that my blood urea and kidney function is high. Potassium is low. Does it make any sense considering that I have some sort of metabolic syndrome? (frequent hunger, belly fat)

asd.jpg
 

Terma

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Similar boat, sleep gone not allow do for good science words.

Yep potassium absorbed on empty stomach increases cortisol so I only sip small amounts, and cortisol moves potassium out of things: Cortisol - Wikipedia

Urea relates to salt balance and Na+, protein/nitrogen and water retention, there were some really important threads on that here, but I'd have to think later what else about urea cause I can't remember a damn thing. Cheers
 
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Astolfo

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@Terma Thanks again.

I guess i can find those topics but not in this state. I think im gonna die from panic. Im nearly gonna cry, my life turned into hell in just like few days. My heart beating like crazy. I ate my last bananas yesterday evening, so 24 hours lasted but no change. So it’s a chronic change. I’m really having bad times, need to learn how to reverse this.
 

Terma

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I understand... if potassium is low odds are magnesium also needed at same time, I don't know if that's you but magnesium deficiency is hell while pharmacological doses help anxiety. I hate to default to minerals but that's what you had (unless anything changed). I wouldn't worry about the urea at all, most likely it will normalize with other changes (people here actually supplement urea) and may be entirely accounted for by Na+:K+ and circumstances. Make sure nothing you're consuming depletes potassium or magnesium, things could. Also consider how much chloride you intake, some people have trouble, I do better with less and things like sodium malate to get Na+ on its own, though might not be an issue for you. I recall you did poorly on aspirin and that's what I'd expect from someone lacking any major mineral.

One of them was:
More Dietary Salt Increases Urea Synthesis And Energy Requirements

I can't recall enough right now to track down what else you should look at related to low potassium, but Amazoniac made highly detailed posts on all the minerals (he always extracts the quotes from science articles so you may have an easier time) so you could just forum search those minerals filtering by his user name. Course if I think of anything tangible or new I'll tell you.
 
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Astolfo

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So I have been supplementing high dose B1 for 2 days. Today, a hour ago I drink only "100-120" mL of Orange Juice. And my heart is pounding like crazy. There is something wrong. This amount of potassium shouldn't be a problem for me. I'm taking 200 mg magnesium now.
 

Vinny

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So I have been supplementing high dose B1 for 2 days. Today, a hour ago I drink only "100-120" mL of Orange Juice. And my heart is pounding like crazy. There is something wrong. This amount of potassium shouldn't be a problem for me. I'm taking 200 mg magnesium now.
Marhaba komshu,

You mentiodned before, that after eating anything, the problem gets worse (pounding heart) correct?

If so, I had exactly the same symptom years ago. Any meal, and I get 120-140 bpm.
Had no idea back then what causes it, now Am almost sure it,s postprandial endotoxemia.
Simply put, you may have bad bacteria. In that case, it probably has nothing to do with potassium.
I,d suggest also, think before you spent your hard earned Liras on thiamine. It did nothing to me even in massive doses. Rule out LPS poisoning first and then think what to do next.
 
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Astolfo

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Marhaba komshu,

You mentiodned before, that after eating anything, the problem gets worse (pounding heart) correct?

If so, I had exactly the same symptom years ago. Any meal, and I get 120-140 bpm.
Had no idea back then what causes it, now Am almost sure it,s postprandial endotoxemia.
Simply put, you may have bad bacteria. In that case, it probably has nothing to do with potassium.
I,d suggest also, think before you spent your hard earned Liras on thiamine. It did nothing to me even in massive doses. Rule out LPS poisoning first and then think what to do next.

Merhaba :)

I get a short and mild panic rush while and after eating but it's not as strong as what i get from bananas and orange juice. Also aspirin causes the same thing as far as i remember. Bananas are the worst especially. Plain sugar doesn't affect me in the same way. How did you solve your problem?
 

Terma

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Same idea, one way or the other gut dysbiosis can affect heart rate: Is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth a cause of hyperdynamic circulation in cirrhosis? - PubMed - NCBI. If white table sugar (~25-50g carbs) did the same thing it might indicate that, or some other issue with glucose/fructose maybe related to lactate or hypoxia (or liver) since that increases heart rate. It's hard to know from bananas+orange juice, they're full of other compounds and I tolerate neither well. I'm not sure what to make of your potassium alone supplement and don't really want to blame excipients... Best place to find stories like that to get ideas would be ME/CFS pheonix rising forums, a lot of people there supplemented potassium as part of Freddd's protocol. People had problems with B1 there in relation to it, I didn't do great, but highly anecdotal and afaik did not always match the research. If you had a way at home/pharmacy to check blood pressure when you do this it might give another clue, but it's not a lot to go on though I don't have the memory atm to connect it to your past. (You mentioned adrenaline and that's not off either, something might be triggering that like the renin system)
 

Amazoniac

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Eating problematic foods in a car is an interesting trick. It's not only a peaceful place for you to consume meals (rarer in Western cultures), but it's easy for you to manipulate the environment in a way that minimizes the bad reactions. You can increase or decrease temperature and ventilation without difficulty according to your state, it's hard to have a proper immune response when you can't avoid reaching the panic state.

When you have that degree of control over your environment, your metabolism doesn't have to compensate. For example, someone in a closed car can remain comfortable for much longer periods when the temperature is lower'd.

Ascourgic acid is probably more beneficial for you at this point than thiamide in isolation.

Postscript: Terma! :wave:
 
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Astolfo

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I tried amoxicillin, garlic juice, cinnamon and ginger tea before. I got no benefit from them. I doubt I have sibo but there could be a problem with the lining of gut.

don't really want to blame excipients...

It was only lite salt. Ingredient was potassium ferrocyanide.

Best place to find stories like that to get ideas would be ME/CFS pheonix rising forums, a lot of people there supplemented potassium as part of Freddd's protocol. People had problems with B1 there in relation to it, I didn't do great, but highly anecdotal and afaik did not always match the research. If you had a way at home/pharmacy to check blood pressure when you do this it might give another clue, but it's not a lot to go on though I don't have the memory atm to connect it to your past. (You mentioned adrenaline and that's not off either, something might be triggering that like the renin system)

I'm going to try reading something on phoenixrising. But I guess I'm just too deteorirated to do this. I have been not reading anything since a long time. I even barely write right now.

Ascourgic acid is probably more beneficial for you at this point than thiamide in isolation.

Vitamin C doesn't do anything. I also tried supplementing it.

Eating problematic foods in a car is an interesting trick.

Is this is an applicable method?


I'm getting worse 'so' rapidly. Today morning I got awake early because I got belly ache from hunger. That scraping feeling in your belly when you are hungry and energy deficient, i mean that. This 'pain' really disturbs me because if i use even a small amount of brain power, I get hungery and get scraping feelling in my stomach. I guess I really became diabetic and this just keeps getting worse day by day. Thiamine didn't do much to be honest. I still feel same after 200 mg.
 

Amazoniac

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Vitamin C doesn't do anything. I also tried supplementing it.
How much were you consuming from foods and what product did you use? You'd need substantial amounts of it from diet to make a difference in a stressed state and there are some people who report nasty reactions to industrial supplements.
Is this is an applicable method?
I'm not sure what you mean, but you can find people being drawn to recording them trying new foods, discussing serious topics or reflecting on life in cars.
I'm getting worse 'so' rapidly. Today morning I got awake early because I got belly ache from hunger. That scraping feeling in your belly when you are hungry and energy deficient, i mean that. I guess I really became diabetic and this just keeps getting worse day by day. Thiamine didn't do much to be honest. I still feel same after 200 mg.
Have you logged your food intake of a week and posted somewhere? Can be just nutrients. Not that it's something missing in the diet, but it may guide others' suggestions.

I would consider putting it all in a single thread to make it more meaningful, it's going to be easier for you and people to make the connections. Otherwise it can be vague and leave you frustrated.
 

Terma

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From experience alone either glucose or amino acid deficiency is a primary cause of hunger so this is broken record but if your gut is too bad you just don't break down or absorb enough amino acids (I'd also get hungry when potassium was too low in diet). I eat high protein and still have to supplement some (serine, histidine, lysine and others lower hunger, and as you can see in Diokine's thread it does seem possible for tryptophan to miss from some tissues due to gut bacteria/indole conversion and now the angiotensin enzyme). I found eating beef/veal liver also helps to counter hunger, not the least since it tastes horrible, but it's very nutrient dense, and other animal livers may be fine (except pork due to reports of contamination I'm not sure were investigated further). Ultimately it's communicated by hormones (ghrelin, orexin, serotonin, etc.) but deficiencies seem likely in your case given digestive issues. You're not necessarily diabetic but do mention insatiable hunger/thirst to the next professional, try not to look agitated with them or they dismiss as panic/hypochondriac, better to look tired. Lite salt (I hated it) does have extra ingredients. When my system crashes and no drugs are possible generally high-dose magnesium and low-dose lithium calm things down, unfortunately those are the simplest ideas I know for that. There are herbs with GABA-like effects but I can't advise those as I don't use them, but melatonin sometimes work to give the gut time to heal. Amazoniac's suggestion isn't crazy because I used to be very sensitive to temperature. This isn't much new information just a summary because some of these you couldn't really rule out. (There's always niacinamide but not knowing what your glucose is doing I wouldn't do 500mg+ and niacin has the flush >50mg)
 
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Astolfo

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@Amazoniac

A24931F9-8955-4347-904B-476D601C8E7A.jpeg


Not only supplement but i also tried orange juice. Didn’t get benefit either.


I was using chronometer but give up after seeing that the foods im eating (turkish foods) are not available on the list and it becomes frustruating after a while.

@Terma i won’t be able to see a doctor in anytime soon unfortunately.

I guess endotoxemia really has a role. I got instantly bloated so much after drinking 300 mL orange juice today. Also there were some regional pain, pressure on my lower belly.

A few hours ago i took 300 mg thiamine HCL, 500 mg total for today. I really see no benefit, maybe slightly.

The thing i wonder most is that how it all started? Only a few days of 10 mg fluoxetine, and i was suffering from excessive sleep accumulation. All the other problems slowly come into appearance and worsened.

@Amazoniac i know that i should make one thread about my case but just too many things happened in this 2 years. I’m far away from what i used to be. My intelligence and cognitive abilities deteoriated too much. I’m at my best right now when writing this and i don’t think i will ever be able to write any long and detailed post again. Im barely writing this post, that’s all i have right now.

My old topic where we talked with @Terma has a lot of info though. Additionaly, i will tell what happened and i learned since:

5 grams of BCAA didn’t improved cognitive synptoms but helped my hyperreactivity of my bowel. It was easier to stay at class and concentrate. Also helped to endure slight cold temperature (18-20 Celcius). One of my symptoms is intolerance to cold.

I stopped BCAA 10 days later because it wasn’t really helping me.

I got a blood test which i posted above. My blood urea is high. Also my ‘urine’ is clear, also i pee a lot i think.
 

Terma

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I mean I think this was mentioned but:
Fluoxetine-induced alteration of murine gut microbial community structure: evidence for a microbial endocrinology-based mechanism of action responsible for fluoxetine-induced side effects
Scientists find psychiatric drugs affect gut contents
We report that the most widely used antidepressant, fluoxetine, which is an SSRI-type drug, results in the selective depletion of gut microbiota, specifically the Lactobacilli which are involved in the regulation of body weight. Concomitantly, fluoxetine administration increases the abundance of phylotypes related to dysbiosis. Since Lactobacilli have been previously shown to possess a known biogenic amine transporter that regulates the uptake of fluoxetine, it is proposed that a microbial endocrinology-based mechanistic pathway is responsible for the ability of SSRIs to selectively negatively impact beneficial microbiota. The results of this study therefore suggest that the negative clinical side effects due to fluoxetine administration may be due to alterations in gut microbiota. Further, the data also suggests that supplementation of bacterial genera directly affected by fluoxetine administration may prove useful in ameliorating some of the well-known side effects of chronic fluoxetine administration such as weight alterations.
If you combine that with an immune-suppressing corticosteroid it sounds like a therapy strong enough to permanently shift a microbiome, do gut damage in the process. But other changes inevitably happens through gene expression, liver burden, kidneys, HPA. But surely the wrong microbiome is enough to drive constant sympathetic activation and again angiotensin.

Orange juice really contains too many compounds, some potentially bad (putrescine, acids, orange peel extract, fluoride...), so try to see how many tbsp white sugar you can consume and how it feels. This is just so you don't go off on the wrong track.

People here suggest antibiotics but you're best off with a professional to change scripts in case anything goes wrong, and although lots of people take them probiotics can have side effects, I've done tons of both and they weren't good experiences, but some people have success with doxycycline and tetracyclines, azithromycin, etc. But you'd practically have to lie to get a prescription so you might not get the choice. It's hard to suggest playing around with this. I suppose you could find gut-modulating herbs and spices, tend to be safer (not inherently), but someone else would have to chime in. There's weak obvious things like coconut oil or shredded coconut but that didn't do much for me and passes right through. Personally, this is a problem I've yet to fully solve although it improved over time. ME/CFS sites are a decent resource for this.

I do think you probably don't absorb/retain enough magnesium as people are usually taking 500mg oral or more to get pharmacological effects to ensure absorption and people like me seem to need topicals. You should make a plan to get thyroid tests eventually (TSH/T4/T3) and other endocrinology if possible, even if it's not on the table. And yeah BCAA aren't enough.
 

Amazoniac

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@Amazoniac

View attachment 17372

Not only supplement but i also tried orange juice. Didn’t get benefit either.


I was using chronometer but give up after seeing that the foods im eating (turkish foods) are not available on the list and it becomes frustruating after a while.

@Terma i won’t be able to see a doctor in anytime soon unfortunately.

I guess endotoxemia really has a role. I got instantly bloated so much after drinking 300 mL orange juice today. Also there were some regional pain, pressure on my lower belly.

A few hours ago i took 300 mg thiamine HCL, 500 mg total for today. I really see no benefit, maybe slightly.

The thing i wonder most is that how it all started? Only a few days of 10 mg fluoxetine, and i was suffering from excessive sleep accumulation. All the other problems slowly come into appearance and worsened.

@Amazoniac i know that i should make one thread about my case but just too many things happened in this 2 years. I’m far away from what i used to be. My intelligence and cognitive abilities deteoriated too much. I’m at my best right now when writing this and i don’t think i will ever be able to write any long and detailed post again. Im barely writing this post, that’s all i have right now.

My old topic where we talked with @Terma has a lot of info though. Additionaly, i will tell what happened and i learned since:

5 grams of BCAA didn’t improved cognitive synptoms but helped my hyperreactivity of my bowel. It was easier to stay at class and concentrate. Also helped to endure slight cold temperature (18-20 Celcius). One of my symptoms is intolerance to cold.

I stopped BCAA 10 days later because it wasn’t really helping me.

I got a blood test which i posted above. My blood urea is high. Also my ‘urine’ is clear, also i pee a lot i think.
Taking baking soda before drinking the juice should help to prevent gut issues, it has a suppressive effect. Boron can do this as well.

Nutrition apps are still valuable for a notion. You can change your targets so that you narrow the window until upper limits, for example 2.5x the RDA for trace minerals. Your requirements are probably increased while you deal with this futile cycle (of curbing the stress while dealing with competition before absorption). I think that ascourgic acid (in particular supplemental) doesn't work too well when you're low on those minerals.

I would not shy away from bloating, you have to persist in a controlled fashion (can't be overwhelming) because that's where the therapeutic potential lies. Eating the foods that you crave, and attempting to increase your tolerance every time, trying to address it indirectly rather than through food elimination.

It's tempting to deal the gut condition in the least eliciting way, but over time it's this that might conclude the lasting shifts. Troubling compounds are on a hook and your immune system enjoys fishing. What you mentioned is one more reason to keep yourself in comfortable conditions after a meal to avoid panic reactions, in sparing the metabolism you can channel efforts to fixing the issue. Missed chances are still signals for what needs to be corrected, but amplifying is dangerous (related to autoimmunity?), FDA (Lemonoil, 2020) to it.
 
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Vinny

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How did you solve your problem?
I didn`t.
It got solved somehow by itself 11 years ago, when I moved from Bulgaria to Cyprus, as well as with a few other symptoms, like the jock itch, for example. I guess I intuitively started a better diet in Cyprus, like less PUFA and alcohol, more quality fruits and olive oil, etc., which gave me some improvements. But, unfortunately, new symptoms come and I`m still a wreck.

Anyway, I`m still suggesting, that you must first rule out bacteria.
Turkish food is great, I`d say stick with it generally, but it may help if you start to eliminate foods one by one, and see how each one is affecting you. You shouldn`t eat anything that bothers you, consume only the most harmless products, as a beginning.
 
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Astolfo

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If you combine that with an immune-suppressing corticosteroid it sounds like a therapy strong enough to permanently shift a microbiome, do gut damage in the process. But other changes inevitably happens through gene expression, liver burden, kidneys, HPA. But surely the wrong microbiome is enough to drive constant sympathetic activation and again angiotensin.

I understand. But, I as I said, I tried some antibacterial things too. And any of them didn't helped at all. Garlic juice, cinnamon, 1 Gr Amoxicillin, Sacc. Boulardii, Coconut oil (in my coffee), Probiotic... Endotoxemia really makes sense but if true, why I didn't get any benefit from those? Is it just a too big problem to be solved by eating garlic and amoxicillin?

I would not shy away from bloating, you have to persist in a controlled fashion (can't be overwhelming) because that's where the therapeutic potential lies. Eating the foods that you crave, and attempting to increase your tolerance every time, trying to address it indirectly rather than through food elimination.

I understand, you are right. I will continue drinking OJ.

I do think you probably don't absorb/retain enough magnesium as people are usually taking 500mg oral or more to get pharmacological effects to ensure absorption and people like me seem to need topicals. You should make a plan to get thyroid tests eventually (TSH/T4/T3) and other endocrinology if possible, even if it's not on the table. And yeah BCAA aren't enough.

TSH/T3/T4 are the most common tests I get checked. All were normal and in the middle of ranges. If anybody is interested, I can put all my blood test results from the 1 previous test before pssd until to the today. The only thing I think worth to mention is that, before pssd my ferritin was low and folate was high. This changed after supplemeting ferritin+zinc for a month. This happened a few months before when I went my first psychiatrist(who prescribed me fluoxetine). At my second blood test, my ferritin was off the range, very high. I don't know how it could have contributed to triggering my disease but worth mentioning.
 

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