Oxalate Toxicity

[Dave Clark]

I think I may have accidentally stumbled into a way to know if I'm deficient in the microbes in the gut that break down oxalates.

After 2 weeks of 100mg doxy daily, followed by 2 weeks of 625mg Co-Amoxiclav, and then 7 weeks of 3x 500mg ZPak weekly, I was to drink a lot of black tea for its EGCG catechins for its biofilm disrupting ability.

Two weeks ago, I had a dental visit and my dentist told me I have a lot of tar in my teeth.

It has never happened to me, although I have never drank this much tea.

Do I may have to ask South Koreans in Quora to check if they experience tar on their teeth. I'm hoping they would say no, as it would mean that the kim hi they eat is keeping the microbes in place even as the tea they drink regularly has no effect on tarring the teeth.

Then I would ask Japanese and Taiwanese and Vietnamese the same thing. Since they don't regularly est fermented foods as much as Koreans, I expect them to say it's tarring their teeth.

Oh, I didn't want to give away the effect of antibiotics on these microbes, so I'd have to ask those whose teeth tars if they use antibiotics regularly.

Right now, I have no problems with oxalate toxicity. But I may soon if the antibiotics I took destroyed these microbes you're talking about.

Maybe some of us here could experiment on themselves as well to see if my hypothesis checks out.

Interesting. Years ago, and maybe even now, certain antibiotics had the side effect of staining teeth. I believe it might of been tetracycline, I am not sure, and admittingly I am not well versed on antibiotics. But I always wondered what it is that caused this, and whatever it is can't be good, since if it can stain teeth, what else can it be doing in the body that the scientists haven't discovered yet. I believe anything that has 'killing' potential in the body has to be watched closely. I personally don't trust antibiotics.

 

[yerrag]

I’m pretty sure it was the 50 day course of antibiotics I had to take 21 years ago that caused my issues. Recently I had to take 10 days of antibiotics and my interstitial cystitis and vulvodynia flared up despite not eating any oxalate whatsoever. I tried to post this in the TLO group to see if anyone had a similar experience but the post was never approved. I figured out what to do on my own though.

I went through more than 50 days, so I'm now a little edgy as to what it might have done to my bacteria that breaks down oxalate.

But your case is more involved, but I'm glad you figured it out.

 

[yerrag]

Interesting. Years ago, and maybe even now, certain antibiotics had the side effect of staining teeth. I believe it might of been tetracycline, I am not sure, and admittingly I am not well versed on antibiotics. But I always wondered what it is that caused this, and whatever it is can't be good, since if it can stain teeth, what else can it be doing in the body that the scientists haven't discovered yet. I believe anything that has 'killing' potential in the body has to be watched closely. I personally don't trust antibiotics.

Doxycycline, in liquid form, can eat away at the enamel. I've had that happen to me a year or two ago. Lesson for me here is to take doxy in tablet form and don't let it touch the teeth by just swallowing it as fast as possible.

 

[Richiebogie]

“Addition of calcium compounds to reduce soluble oxalate in a high oxalate food system”

courtesy @Amazoniac

“Spinach is known to contain significant amounts of oxalates, which are toxic and, if consumed regularly, can lead to the development of kidney stones. This research investigates adding 50 to 500 mg increments of calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, calcium citrate and calcium sulphate to 100 g of raw homogenates of spinach to determine whether calcium would combine with the soluble oxalate present in the spinach. Calcium chloride was the most effective additive while calcium carbonate was the least effective. The formation of insoluble oxalate after incubation at 25°C for 30 minutes is a simple practical step that can be incorporated into the juicing process. This would make the juice considerably safer to consume on a regular basis.”

The addition of calcium salts before drinking spinach smoothies may convert some of the soluble oxalate into insoluble oxalate, but this is not necessarily a good thing.

While some soluble oxalate is no longer available to get absorbed into your bloodstream and potentially become kidney stones, the insoluble calcium oxalate can form sharp crystals which can lodge into your digestive tract and do damage there.

I recommend that the simplest practical step to incorporate into your spinach juicing process is to pour it down the sink.

 

[Lollipop2]

I recommend that the simplest practical step to incorporate into your spinach juicing process is to pour it down the sink.

LoL...so true.

 

[yerrag]

LoL...so true.

But it's a thing with raw vegans. What will they eat lol

 

[Lollipop2]

But it's a thing with raw vegans. What will they eat lol

Right?!?! In the TLO group on FB these people come in and describe the kinds of diets they were on, which basically means they were pounding oxalates, greens, nuts, etc. It is all I can do to stay quiet, but it is a fabulous case study on dietary results. The most messed up seem to be that vegan group. They also explain the diets their doctors put them on or even their functional medicine doctors and it is mind blowing. I can see why people never get better....

 

[Blossom]

mind blowing. I can see why people never get better....

And usually get much worse.

 

[Lollipop2]

And usually get much worse.

Totally! I love seeing how you are improving. Nice!

 

[Blossom]

Totally! I love seeing how you are improving. Nice!

Thank you friend.

 

[Blossom]

I left the group. Sorry if I mentioned it already but I had a question about a pretty severe IC/vulvodynia flare when I was on antibiotics and eating zero oxalate. After 2 weeks of no approval for my post and solving my own problem anyway I decided to just leave. I had the suspicion they were very authoritarian after the way they treated two of my friends. I also wonder if they do not approve posts that might poke holes in their theory.
In other oxalate news Dr. Robert Cywes MD PhD claims in a recent youtube video that most problems around oxalate are actually due to endogenous production related to carbohydrate metabolism which reminded me somewhat of Peat. We should technically be able to handle them was the main takeaway. He is polar opposite of Peat but it was still interesting.

 

[Lollipop2]

I also wonder if they do not approve posts that might poke holes in their theory.

This is an astute observation. I think oxalates are a problem with paleo, vegan types who overeat high oxalates like chocolate, spinach, nuts, etc. I think for most of us doing two or three months of low oxalate foods is helpful and highly beneficial. The number of months of course depends on the starting point of the person. After that maintaining a moderate level is fine, in my humble opinion. Thinking that one has to be extreme and eating low to no oxalates for the rest of ones life is messed up. When you look in the TLO recipe group, at one of the mods - super authoritarian (you know who) diet and food pics she posts, they look horrendous. How could this be appetizing? Ray is correct, food needs to taste good!

 

[somuch4food]

In other oxalate news Dr. Robert Cywes MD PhD claims in a recent youtube video that most problems around oxalate are actually due to endogenous production related to carbohydrate metabolism which reminded me somewhat of Peat. We should technically be able to handle them was the main takeaway. He is polar opposite of Peat but it was still interesting.

I will look into that. I deducted that endogenous would be more problematic than food sources and have stopped worrying about food oxalates.

Grams of fructose, glycine, ascorbic acid, and probably some other molecules would easily generate more oxalates than 40mg of it from food intake.

I certainly feel worse after a few days of increased intake of any of those three.

 

[Dutchie]

I will look into that. I deducted that endogenous would be more problematic than food sources and have stopped worrying about food oxalates.

Grams of fructose, glycine, ascorbic acid, and probably some other molecules would easily generate more oxalates than 40mg of it from food intake.

I certainly feel worse after a few days of increased intake of any of those three.

Yep,I seem to be having issues with endogenous production as well.
Collagen and my glycine powder give me issues now, which leaves me clueless as to how to balance out the muscle meat I eat.

 

[Recoen]

Yep,I seem to be having issues with endogenous production as well.
Collagen and my glycine powder give me issues now, which leaves me clueless as to how to balance out the muscle meat I eat.

Are you getting enough B6?

 

[Blossom]

I’m ready to try adding some back in my diet.
Just in case anyone has a similar experience with IC/vulvodynia d-mannose is what resolved it for me. I knew there was more to the story when I hadn’t consumed an oxalate food in over a year an my symptoms came back with a vengeance from the antibiotics.

 

[Dutchie]

Are you getting enough B6?

I take a b-complex daily,which contains b1 and b6....and ofcourse what I'll get through my food.
You need to be cautious with b6 too, because it can have a negative impact on the nervous system.

 

[Recoen]

I take a b-complex daily,which contains b1 and b6....and ofcourse what I'll get through my food.
You need to be cautious with b6 too, because it can have a negative impact on the nervous system.

I agree, I had B6 toxicity issues. Surprisingly collagen really helped me and I’ve been able to handle it topically (energin).
Have you tried topical B vitamins? I think there’s something to them not going to the liver.

 

[Dutchie]

I agree, I had B6 toxicity issues. Surprisingly collagen really helped me and I’ve been able to handle it topically (energin).
Have you tried topical B vitamins? I think there’s something to them not going to the liver.

No,I never knew there was such a thing as topical b vitamins.
Where did you buy these? though I'm limited in resources where I can buy supplements.

If you were b6 tocic it makes sense that collagen helped you. B6 needed to be lowered,collagen triggers endogenous production which uses a lot of b6

 

[Recoen]

No,I never knew there was such a thing as topical b vitamins.
Where did you buy these? though I'm limited in resources where I can buy supplements.

If you were b6 tocic it makes sense that collagen helped you. B6 needed to be lowered,collagen triggers endogenous production which uses a lot of b6

I am using energin around my navel. Energin is the first B complex with B6 I’ve been able to handle. When I tried B6 orally (even very low doses, <1mg, of P5P spread throughout the day) I would have a really bad oxalate dump and get peripheral neuropathy after 2d of use. My serum levels were never tested high. I think it has to do with the liver picking up most of the Bs when taken orally.