Ox Bile As A Gut Desinfectant?

[cs3000]

https://academic.oup.com/dote/article-abstract/7/2/127/2798533?redirectedFrom=fulltext

^ at first i thought this suggests empty stomach would destroy a lot of the bile acids supplemented as they don't do well in low pH , ("Acidification [of the bile] to a pH below 4 resulted in a marked decrease of all measured bile acids")

but the conjugated bile acids do better in low ph (and are safer than unconjugated)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2397231/

"The potency of the unconjugated bile acids was extremely sensitive to pH. The taurine-conjugated cholate and deoxycholate were only slightly sensitive to variations in pH"

The function of bile salts in fat absorption. The solvent properties of dilute micellar solutions of conjugated bile salts conjugated bile acids have a pH of 2 - 4 , unconjugated pH is higher 5-6

so looks fine taking conjugated bile supplements with or without food in terms of how much stays intact. just that with food can cause reflux for some people. but then if taking without food u miss benefits of having it in stomach with meals. ray peat mentioned better taking with food.

would we get more effect for clearing small intestinal microbes taking it on empty stomach? or would the bile acid pass through with food all the same?

 

[Gypsumking]

Any updates on experiences in this thread with tudca or oxbile? Have you all discontinued and if so what were the circumstances?

 

[Gypsumking]

Bump

 

[user8374]

Any updates on experiences in this thread with tudca or oxbile? Have you all discontinued and if so what were the circumstances?

I took UDCA for 5 months and it cleared my SIBO at the end of the 4th month. Now I have constipation which is expected as SIBO is caused by poor motility but I am able eat all the foods that previously bothered me. Though on the last month I started developing muscle aches and severe anxiety which I linked to UDCA so I would definitely recommend to take breaks with any bile acids in general. Bile acids are also good if you are dealing with endotoxemia from the small intestine. As well as killing bacteria they split endotoxin making them easier for the liver to get rid of.

 

[Gypsumking]

I took UDCA for 5 months and it cleared my SIBO at the end of the 4th month. Now I have constipation which is expected as SIBO is caused by poor motility but I am able eat all the foods that previously bothered me. Though on the last month I started developing muscle aches and severe anxiety which I linked to UDCA so I would definitely recommend to take breaks with any bile acids in general. Bile acids are also good if you are dealing with endotoxemia from the small intestine. As well as killing bacteria they split endotoxin making them easier for the liver to get rid of.

Interesting thanks for the reply. Sorry that you have constipation now. Have you tried any of the peaty recommendations to quicken transit time and/or relieve constipation?

 

[user8374]

Interesting thanks for the reply. Sorry that you have constipation now. Have you tried any of the peaty recommendations to quicken transit time and/or relieve constipation?

I have but nothing really helps. I am going to try small doses of 5-HTP to see if that helps. I read that serotonin has a big effect on gut motility so its worth a shot.

 

[yoyo123]

Any updates on experiences in this thread with tudca or oxbile? Have you all discontinued and if so what were the circumstances?

I'm about 2.5 months into treatment with TUDCA (1000mg a day), 2 beetroots a day and a lemon/olive oil drink every day. I'm hoping to fix my low metabolism because I had noticed that doing things to increase bile flow temporarily boosted my metabolism and I often get yellow stool as well as occasional aches and feelings in liver/gallbladder. I'm at the point now where I can feel more liquid in my intestines, I get some nice digestive sounds too. Stool color not brown yet but it's difficult to tell while eating beetroot. My stomach is flatter too. After about 1 month into starting TUDCA, I began drinking a lemon/olive oil drink which often gives me some nice spasms in the gallbladder area, it really gets the gallbladder working. At this point I also started noticing something trickling down my bile duct after taking TUDCA/beetroot/olive oil drink, as if I was passing something solid through. I continue to occasionaly get these feelings and I view it as very positive, like an expulsion from the biliary system that improves the flow. TUDCA in particular is great. My only fear is that I don't want the rapid fat loss I'm getting from increased metabolism to make matters worse for the gallbladder/bile flow, although I'm not sure if it's fat loss or just reduced bloating.

I'm thinking of trying ox bile because I want to see how I feel when I get my poop to turn brown while I try and fix my body's own bile flow. But since it likely lowers the liver's natural bile production will that mean that it could hinder the bile flow inside the liver? Or is the ox bile recycled in the intestines and used inside the liver, thereby improving the bile flow in the liver? Can you become dependent on the ox bile too, will natural production recover when you're off it?

 

[InChristAlone]

I'm about 2.5 months into treatment with TUDCA (1000mg a day), 2 beetroots a day and a lemon/olive oil drink every day. I'm hoping to fix my low metabolism because I had noticed that doing things to increase bile flow temporarily boosted my metabolism and I often get yellow stool as well as occasional aches and feelings in liver/gallbladder. I'm at the point now where I can feel more liquid in my intestines, I get some nice digestive sounds too. Stool color not brown yet but it's difficult to tell while eating beetroot. My stomach is flatter too. After about 1 month into starting TUDCA, I began drinking a lemon/olive oil drink which often gives me some nice spasms in the gallbladder area, it really gets the gallbladder working. At this point I also started noticing something trickling down my bile duct after taking TUDCA/beetroot/olive oil drink, as if I was passing something solid through. I continue to occasionaly get these feelings and I view it as very positive, like an expulsion from the biliary system that improves the flow. TUDCA in particular is great. My only fear is that I don't want the rapid fat loss I'm getting from increased metabolism to make matters worse for the gallbladder/bile flow, although I'm not sure if it's fat loss or just reduced bloating.

I'm thinking of trying ox bile because I want to see how I feel when I get my poop to turn brown while I try and fix my body's own bile flow. But since it likely lowers the liver's natural bile production will that mean that it could hinder the bile flow inside the liver? Or is the ox bile recycled in the intestines and used inside the liver, thereby improving the bile flow in the liver? Can you become dependent on the ox bile too, will natural production recover when you're off it?

Look into the bean diet. The way to get bile less toxic is to soak it up slowly over many months as we recycle bile over and over.

 

[yoyo123]

Look into the bean diet. The way to get bile less toxic is to soak it up slowly over many months as we recycle bile over and over.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have been on a bean diet (although not for bile flow purposes) in the past. It does make you more regular but I didn't notice an improvement in stool colour. If you have blocked bile flow then it doesn't help too much, but maybe now that my bile flow is better it could help.

 

[Kyle970]

@yoyo123 hi, how much Tudca are you taking? Away from meals or with?

 

[DrJ]

Dang I wish I knew this thread existed a while ago. I was getting SIBO-like symptoms (burping, bloating, bad breath) and did some reading which indicated that bile is the main substance which keeps the small intestine basically sterile. It's alkaline and has antibacterial properties.

So I reasoned it was likely to fix SIBO and be more natural than an antibiotic. For me it (ox bile) worked. Bloating went down, burping stopped, breath improved dramatically.

But I have to say that I think a lot of instructions for taking ox bile are really wrong and obviously so. Usually people advise to take with a meal. But I think this is silly since why would you want to dump a powerfully alkaline substance into your acidic stomach while you're eating? Keeps you from digesting food well and might encourage more bacterial growth. The one time I took it with a meal I had a bad reaction.

So I think logically you should take it many hours after a meal or on an empty stomach when you are not digesting food. When I take it, I take it right before bed at least 4 hours after dinner.

 

[golder]

Dang I wish I knew this thread existed a while ago. I was getting SIBO-like symptoms (burping, bloating, bad breath) and did some reading which indicated that bile is the main substance which keeps the small intestine basically sterile. It's alkaline and has antibacterial properties.

So I reasoned it was likely to fix SIBO and be more natural than an antibiotic. For me it (ox bile) worked. Bloating went down, burping stopped, breath improved dramatically.

But I have to say that I think a lot of instructions for taking ox bile are really wrong and obviously so. Usually people advise to take with a meal. But I think this is silly since why would you want to dump a powerfully alkaline substance into your acidic stomach while you're eating? Keeps you from digesting food well and might encourage more bacterial growth. The one time I took it with a meal I had a bad reaction.

So I think logically you should take it many hours after a meal or on an empty stomach when you are not digesting food. When I take it, I take it right before bed at least 4 hours after dinner.

Great reasoning thanks for this. Do you take 125mg before bed? 250mg?

 

[DrJ]

Great reasoning thanks for this. Do you take 125mg before bed? 250mg?

500mg

 

[golder]

500mg

Whoa that’s quite a high dose. I just bought some 125mg capsules. Have you noticed any side effects/changes/sleep quality/hunger on waking etc from the pre bed 500mg? Thanks!

 

[DrJ]

Whoa that’s quite a high dose. I just bought some 125mg capsules. Have you noticed any side effects/changes/sleep quality/hunger on waking etc from the pre bed 500mg? Thanks!

500mg is one capsule of the brand I started with, but yeah I don't really know what a big dose is I guess.

Appetite when I wake up is dramatically greater. Sleep seems about the same but "morning breath" doesn't seem to happen very severely when I remember to do this.

 

[golder]

500mg is one capsule of the brand I started with, but yeah I don't really know what a big dose is I guess.

Appetite when I wake up is dramatically greater. Sleep seems about the same but "morning breath" doesn't seem to happen very severely when I remember to do this.

Thanks man, I’m going to give this a try. I think you’re on to something here. Thanks.

 

[yoyo123]

@yoyo123 hi, how much Tudca are you taking? Away from meals or with?

Hey, I'm taking 1000mg a day away from meals, one in the morning and one at night. It's really helping with the bile flow but it takes a few months to see good progress.