Overfeeding Palm Oil Causes More Liver And Visceral Fat Accumulation Than Sunflower Oil

[Dean]

Peat himself has said that he tries to limit fat consumption to no more than 10% of daily calories.

How much fat do you eat haidut? Weren't you eating mostly cheese sticks at one point? Surely that made you eat a lot of fat?

I still eat those occasionally since they are very convenient and rack up the protein grams pretty quickly. When I was eating mostly cheese I was on 2 grains of thyroid so the extra fat did not affect me that much. Since I lost all of my excess weight and metabolism improved I don't really restrict fat religiously but I do try to eat mostly sugar and protein. I find Peat's suggestion of Coke and some type of lean protein pretty tasty and easy to get virtually anywhere. Breakfast is usually 3 organic eggs, lunch is meat or shellfish or cheese, and dinner is milk with sugar. Everything is of course irrigated with generous amounts of Coke or Pepsi (made with sugar).
Btw, I gather at this point I am quite PUFA depleted, confirmed by Mead acid tests and the fact that I get dermatitis the next day after I forget to take my 5mg vitamin B6. I managed to stop thyroid completely and do not feel metabolism slowdown (so far). Let's see how this continues, but so far so good.

Thanks for the reply. So coke is your only carb source, no fruit?

Yeah, interesting...no fruit. I take it, Haidut, you also don't put much stock into calcium:phosphorus ratio? Meat daily and lots of coke or pepsi through the day with milk only once a day.

 

[Strongbad]

Now, does the "meat" include organ-based meat? Like neck bones, heart, liver (obviously), shank bones? I understand reducing chuck roast, ribs or t-bone steaks, but organ meats have so much nutrition it's pretty bad to abandon / reduce its intake.

Also need to be careful in reducing the amount of meat intake. That's borderline vegan / vegetarian territory, and obviously they don't work out well

 

[tara]

I agree, Haidut. Good points made about what Ray Peat thinks about fat. I know that Ray said that at one point he was consuming higher fat (saturated), but as he continued his research on fat in general, he lowered his fat intake dramatically. I think that one of the biggest mistakes people make when beginning to incorporate Peats ideas is that they eat too much fat in general, hence the weight gain that many people experience. While Peat does advocate saturated fat over unsaturated fat, this is in the context of a low fat diet (actually, a very low fat diet, as 10% would be defined as such). Peat has acknowledged in the past that in general choosing fats over carbs can have negative health effects, even if the fat is mostly saturated, as carbs are superior.

In an interview
when asked about the relative proportions of protein/carbs/fat,
Peat said the ideal ratio is not known.
But he said "probably about equal parts of each."
But then in a later interview
he said he had been reducing his fat intake
and replacing it with more carbs (sugars)
primarily because of the almost unavoidable PUFA that will come with fats,
even good fats.
You get older, the PUFA tend to accrue and accumulate, etc.
That was mostly where he was coming from, about his rethinking fat consumption,
iirc--
PUFA.

I agree with narouz on this. Peat says to avoid fat to not gain weight only because he thinks it's easier to overeat fat, and when you are in a calorie restriction you want the most nutrient rich foods. His own fat restriction only comes from wanting to reduce PUFA as much as possible.

I too have come across in a recent interview (last year?), Peat saying he did not know what the optimal CF ratios would be, that they may be approx equal, and that he suspects they may vary from person to person, depending on their state. And to take account of fat calories when trying to reduce body fat or slow fat gain.

 

[haidut]

Peat himself has said that he tries to limit fat consumption to no more than 10% of daily calories.

How much fat do you eat haidut? Weren't you eating mostly cheese sticks at one point? Surely that made you eat a lot of fat?

I still eat those occasionally since they are very convenient and rack up the protein grams pretty quickly. When I was eating mostly cheese I was on 2 grains of thyroid so the extra fat did not affect me that much. Since I lost all of my excess weight and metabolism improved I don't really restrict fat religiously but I do try to eat mostly sugar and protein. I find Peat's suggestion of Coke and some type of lean protein pretty tasty and easy to get virtually anywhere. Breakfast is usually 3 organic eggs, lunch is meat or shellfish or cheese, and dinner is milk with sugar. Everything is of course irrigated with generous amounts of Coke or Pepsi (made with sugar).
Btw, I gather at this point I am quite PUFA depleted, confirmed by Mead acid tests and the fact that I get dermatitis the next day after I forget to take my 5mg vitamin B6. I managed to stop thyroid completely and do not feel metabolism slowdown (so far). Let's see how this continues, but so far so good.

Thanks for the reply. So coke is your only carb source, no fruit?

I eat fruit whenever I can get my hands on a quality product but being busy means you end up drinking much more Coke than eating fruit.

 

[haidut]

Peat himself has said that he tries to limit fat consumption to no more than 10% of daily calories.

How much fat do you eat haidut? Weren't you eating mostly cheese sticks at one point? Surely that made you eat a lot of fat?

I still eat those occasionally since they are very convenient and rack up the protein grams pretty quickly. When I was eating mostly cheese I was on 2 grains of thyroid so the extra fat did not affect me that much. Since I lost all of my excess weight and metabolism improved I don't really restrict fat religiously but I do try to eat mostly sugar and protein. I find Peat's suggestion of Coke and some type of lean protein pretty tasty and easy to get virtually anywhere. Breakfast is usually 3 organic eggs, lunch is meat or shellfish or cheese, and dinner is milk with sugar. Everything is of course irrigated with generous amounts of Coke or Pepsi (made with sugar).
Btw, I gather at this point I am quite PUFA depleted, confirmed by Mead acid tests and the fact that I get dermatitis the next day after I forget to take my 5mg vitamin B6. I managed to stop thyroid completely and do not feel metabolism slowdown (so far). Let's see how this continues, but so far so good.

Thanks for the reply. So coke is your only carb source, no fruit?

Yeah, interesting...no fruit. I take it, Haidut, you also don't put much stock into calcium:phosphorus ratio? Meat daily and lots of coke or pepsi through the day with milk only once a day.

My company sometimes stocks the fridge in the office with low fat cheese, so I try to eat that whenever there is some available. I certainly do not get up to the Peat recommendation of 2,000mg calcium daily but between the milk I drink at home and the cheese at eat at the office I probably get 600mg on a daily basis and on some weeks up to 1,000mg a day.
Overall, I found that as metabolism improved I do not have to track what I eat that carefully. Kind of like back in childhood when what you ate was kind of in the back of your mind and the focus was on having fun and experiences. On days when my metabolism is at its best I can get consumed in a fun activity for hours and forget to eat for the whole day without getting even a hint of stress reaction. Then I eat like a beast in the evening and go to bed exhausted and ready to dream and digest

 

[jyb]

Also need to be careful in reducing the amount of meat intake. That's borderline vegan / vegetarian territory, and obviously they don't work out well

That said, I don't know many vegans that drink/eat that much dairy products. Instead, it's mostly about getting filled with vegetables, vegetables oils, legumes... So I don't blame low meat alone for any bad health from vegetarianism! But I do think meat is useful. Liver is nutritious. I'm just unclear about whether there's any requirement for any substantial amount if one is already drinking litters of milk.

 

[narouz]

Then I eat like a beast in the evening/ and go to bed exhausted/ and ready to dream/ and digest

This would make a nice chorus to a pop song. :)

 

[Tom]

I think you nailed it. Arachidonic acid is actually sold as a bodybuilding supplement to enhance muscle growth. It is also the chief precursor to the prostaglandins and as such is one of main drivers of chronic inflammation and cancer.

Question is really if AA rich foods cause cancer and inflammation for a person on an otherwise low PUFA diet (or low levels of PUFA in his body), after all AA has been consumed throughout our evolution likely in higher quantities than today, it is probably even lower than a hundred years ago as we don´t eat much organ meats anymore (poultry is now the chief source of AA for most people). It is the major long chain fatty acid PUFA in land animals (while DHA is more prevalent in sea/water species). Personally I eat about 2 egg yolks per day, I need this much to prevent headaches and some other inflammation (body pain) that appears to result after a few days or a week with no egg intake. This is likely due to the lecithin/choline content, yet I get better result from the regular eggs than the DHA enriched eggs. Also liver, another high AA source, has been used traditionally as part of various cancer "treatments".

As regards low fat versus high fat, I´m not sure I really get it, because (1) Peat say in one e-mail exchange that up to 50E% is okay if it is from high saturated fat foods, and (2) If one eat say 70% of energy as carbs, much more is going to turn into saturated fats, meaning palmitic acid first and then maybe over time to stearic acid, oleic acid, even mead acid. Is it really better to eat carbs that turns into palmitic acid than to eat palmitic acid and save the body this work? A higher fat intake will also mean more stable blood sugar and so one can go longer without having to eat and prevent some hormonal issues. If the diet is mostly fruits then blood sugar is going to be relatively stable, but it will still be more stable with more fat added in. If people get fat by eating fat it may have as much to do with lacking certain nutrients like those found in milk, but not so much in cheese (for example pantothenic acid and choline). There are advantages and disadvantages with low fat and high fat, the best is probably to keep it at around 1/3 of energy, as seems to be what Peat has suggested several times.

 

[tara]

As regards low fat versus high fat, I´m not sure I really get it, because (1) Peat say in one e-mail exchange that up to 50E% is okay if it is from high saturated fat foods, and (2) If one eat say 70% of energy as carbs, much more is going to turn into saturated fats, meaning palmitic acid first and then maybe over time to stearic acid, oleic acid, even mead acid. Is it really better to eat carbs that turns into palmitic acid than to eat palmitic acid and save the body this work?

I thnk Peat has said what is best may vary from person to person. I don't think you can find a natural source of pure palmitic acid to eat - even the best sources always come along with a little PUFA.

 

[Tom]

Sure, but even fruits and orange juice have some PUFA, I think 2000 kcal orange juice would have around 1.8 grams of PUFA, compared to 4.1 grams in 2000 kcal coconut oil. And I think if someone wanted to reduce fat intake from 20E% to 10E% it would be almost no difference in PUFA intake unless most of the calories comes from sucrose. There are also issues perhaps with the fat soluble vitamins at too low fat intake, I´ve understood that not much beta-carotene turns into retinol unless there´s some fats in the meal (does that mean beta-carotene which is kind of "unsaturated" like PUFA accumulates in skin etc and cause as much harm?). I also have some concerns about skimmed milk given that a lot of these factors in the fatty (cream) part is designed to deal with the rest of the milk, such as the calcium via vitamin A, D, K and others. For me it is mostly about practicality, having more fat means less meals, means better sleep, better hormonal balance etc, it is also somewhat cheaper often, like fattier meat can be cheaper than lean meat.

 

[jyb]

For me it is mostly about practicality, having more fat means less meals, means better sleep, better hormonal balance etc, it is also somewhat cheaper often, like fattier meat can be cheaper than lean meat.

Those are indication of good metabolism, so you're eating the right things. I eat similar.

 

[SQu]

Personally I eat about 2 egg yolks per day, I need this much to prevent headaches and some other inflammation (body pain) that appears to result after a few days or a week with no egg intake. This is likely due to the lecithin/choline content,

A few days or a week or so without eggs makes me feel very nauseated and liverish. I've also assumed it is the choline I need.

 

[Tom]

I think betaine can at least partially conpensate for choline. So eating more beets can be a solution for those allergic to eggs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258634 Analysis of traditional dishes, one often find that fatty recepies would have things like vinegar (for example salad dressing), egg yolks (for example tradionally made ice cream, béarnaise sauce) and also beets are often used. Beets also has been used as a hangover receipe, and in weight loss.

 

[janus]

I think betaine can at least partially conpensate for choline. So eating more beets can be a solution for those allergic to eggs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258634 Analysis of traditional dishes, one often find that fatty recepies would have things like vinegar (for example salad dressing), egg yolks (for example tradionally made ice cream, béarnaise sauce) and also beets are often used. Beets also has been used as a hangover receipe, and in weight loss.

I'd be surprised if betaine (trimethylglycine) did anything helpful which glycine doesn't.

 

[Tom]

I think betaine can at least partially conpensate for choline. So eating more beets can be a solution for those allergic to eggs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258634 Analysis of traditional dishes, one often find that fatty recepies would have things like vinegar (for example salad dressing), egg yolks (for example tradionally made ice cream, béarnaise sauce) and also beets are often used. Beets also has been used as a hangover receipe, and in weight loss.

I'd be surprised if betaine (trimethylglycine) did anything helpful which glycine doesn't.

Interesting, but at what dosage. Even 100 grams of meats has about 1500 mg glycine, and just 200 mg betaine could have a big effect that I will not get from eating meats. Or is it the balance of amino acids? I don´t use much gelatine, but have noticed in the past the good anti-inflammatory effect of chicken stock.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think betaine can at least partially conpensate for choline. So eating more beets can be a solution for those allergic to eggs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258634 Analysis of traditional dishes, one often find that fatty recepies would have things like vinegar (for example salad dressing), egg yolks (for example tradionally made ice cream, béarnaise sauce) and also beets are often used. Beets also has been used as a hangover receipe, and in weight loss.

I'd be surprised if betaine (trimethylglycine) did anything helpful which glycine doesn't.

Methyl donor?

 

[janus]

I'd be surprised if betaine (trimethylglycine) did anything helpful which glycine doesn't.

Methyl donor?

I tend to view methyl donors as undesirable (e.g. methionine). I think one of glycine's most important actions is to reduce the toxicity of methionine, which (speculative) may be achieving through methyl-sponging.

 

[narouz]

Hmmm...
I like beets.
I wonder how bad they are from a strict Peat p.o.v....?

Do they have a lot of beta carotene?

 

[janus]

Hmmm...
I like beets.
I wonder how bad they are from a strict Peat p.o.v....?

Do they have a lot of beta carotene?

I ate lots of them for a couple months. They should have little-to-no carotene. Not much starch, some decent nutrients.

But the pigments are ~indoles, I think. And yeah, methyl donors.

 

[schultz]

Personally I eat about 2 egg yolks per day, I need this much to prevent headaches and some other inflammation (body pain) that appears to result after a few days or a week with no egg intake. This is likely due to the lecithin/choline content, yet I get better result from the regular eggs than the DHA enriched eggs.

Humans can make choline, but maybe you have one or two defective copies of the PEMT gene?

http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/ ... te-to.html