Orthodoxy And The Religion Of The Future

[Gone Peating]

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:7

You have to understand the context. You can’t just interpret Scripture any which way you want. I encourage you to research these complicated topics in more depth

There is a difference between what is mentioned here and the “born again” ideas in America that have developed in recent years. Christianity is very old. Read the writings of Clement of Rome, Polycarp and Ignatius (three saints who knew the Apostles) to get a clear idea of what the Church teaches, not what people trying to interpret Scripture to their own understanding teach

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2Peter 1:20-21

15and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,†
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.†
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;† 2Peter 3:15-17

 

[Mary Lyn]

I agree that the common misconception of the text is wrong, that all you have to do is 'accept Jesus into your heart' . it is not as easy as that. One must be delivered from the old nature that sins.

 

[lampofred]

Do we really have free will? It seems like it is Satan who gave us free will (via Forbidden Fruit), and with it came unhappiness and degeneration. God expects perfect obedience from us, in return we get total contentment and eternal life.

 

[Tbone107]

You have to understand the context. You can’t just interpret Scripture any which way you want. I encourage you to research these complicated topics in more depth

There is a difference between what is mentioned here and the “born again” ideas in America that have developed in recent years. Christianity is very old. Read the writings of Clement of Rome, Polycarp and Ignatius (three saints who knew the Apostles) to get a clear idea of what the Church teaches, not what people trying to interpret Scripture to their own understanding teach

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2Peter 1:20-21

15and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,†
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.†
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;† 2Peter 3:15-17

appreciate your insight gone peating.

my question to you would be then how would the sinner on the cross next to Jesus have been given the gift of eternal salvation without works? It seems to me that he would have been a sinner and simply had faith.

 

[gately]

To say that dark forces are the cause of the worlds evil absolves humans of their responsibility for anything. Why live by a moral compass when you’re just at the mercy of demons anyway? Abstracting human emotion and action into a demon just perpetuates the cycle of evil, as we continue to blame the supposed shadow with a fedora in the corner.

Literally never said dark forces are the cause of the world's evil. Just said dark forces exist.

“You really going to tell me a child that’s raped to death is a part of “God’s plan” and expect a reasonable thinking person not to judge the crap out of your belief system?”

I’ll only touch on this one point @gately.

Sadly(in reference to your example), we as people have been given free will and some people will use that free will to inflict harm and pain on others. I see that as evil and in direct opposition to God’s will which is very much a different thing completely. I read the rest of your posts and there’s a bit too much to unpack for me. I’ll leave it at that but thanks for sharing your opinions.

No doubt we have free will. My point isn't whether or why evil exists. It does and people can be dirtbags. That's obvious enough. My point was refuting belief systems that believe in any material form of benevolent divine intercession, which logically, either A - can't exist in the face in such tremendous world suffering, or B - Is severely limited in it's power, compared to say...an omnipotent being/force.

Ok then what is the absolute truth, IN YOUR OPINION?
That right there is an absurdist notion in and of itself.

A child being raped is not in “God’s plan”. God’s plan is for us to return to our pre-fallen state of Paradise. We exist in a fallen world, and God does not will these things to happen, but allows them. He allows us to choose how to use our lives and what He has given us. It is the greatest gift bestowed to any creature in our world.

“There’s nothing new age or nihilistic with accepting the truth about our prison reality and way out of it through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.“

This is your problem here. You take pride in your “good thoughts, words and deeds” as if they are your own and is if humans can be good on their own, and not only through the grace and revelation of our Creator, who is the source of every good thing. Nevertheless, you are not alone. We all suffer from this prideful delusion

First of all: I agree we will live in a "fallen world" you could say this is explicitly the view of the gnostics who got it a lot MORE right, in my view. Secondly, so an omnipotent God, allows children to be raped and tortured because that's how they chose to use their life? Come ONNNNNN, dude. Are you for real? "What a great gift of life!" says the child being tortured to death in some dungeon somewhere in Eastern Europe.

If we exist in a fallen world, i.e. - material ... then material existence isn't a gift, it's a curse. How is that not obvious? Is life a gift or a curse for children in slavery? For children with brain cancer? All material existence is hot garbage (duhkha), even when it appears we're riding high. I'm not going to evangelize the Buddha's gospel any more than to say that if you haven't realized that, you've probably still got some suffering to contend with. And anyway, it isn't the point of this thread.

Now onto the pride on my goodness: That's a pretty big assumption about who I am, and it's a classic argument in the Christian world, which I have already addressed. Just because YOU believe that goodness can only come from a higher power, doesn't mean it applies to everyone. That's where your faith comes in. And there's nothing wrong with using faith to support your inherent goodness. It reminds me the cult-like dilemma of Alcoholics Anonymous: they believe that because THEY have found a reliance on a Higher Power to instill in them goodness and annihilate their condition of "selfishness" that it must then apply to EVERYONE else. How conceited! How plainly wrong! Because we know it isn't true. Just look around. AA has about the same success rate as secular programs. I know of MANY people helped from the throws of alcoholism with a non-theistic program rooted in Theravada Buddhism, where the only "Higher Power" is the Buddha's teachings.

Think of it like this: Altogether, what's the difference between thinking of God as some omnipotent benevolent being (absolute hogwash considering human suffering, as previously stated) vs thinking of a God as the Dharma or the Dao: certainly serving the righteous way (or path or commandments) of a benevolent divine being is akin to serving Himself, no? Think about it, what else could please such a being, but serving His will? Belief in His omipotence, belief in the correct pronunciation of His name, what he looked like, whether he died on a Cross...all that couldn't possibly matter compared to following the will of the Father in heaven...which is what Jesus in the synoptic gospels taught us to do btw:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Do the will of the father. That is the teaching! So then what is will of the father? Well, let's talk about that. Because Jesus spent his ENTIRE ministry telling us EXACTLY what God's will was, but most christians seem to completely ignore them. Here are some:

- Repent
- Do not lust in your hearts.
- Love your enemies.
- Be Perfect.
- Seek God's Kingdom.
- Forgiveness.
And of course, the two Great Commandments:

• Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment” (Matthew 22:37–38).
  
  
• Love Your Neighbor
  “And the second [commandment] is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets”(Matthew 22:39–40).

That's it in a nutshell: Love God, love everyone else, and be as righteous and perfect as you can possibly be.

Now for those who believe that Faith Alone is important to salvation, don't you think it's a little odd that Jesus spent his entire ministry telling us exactly what we needed to do to enter heaven, only to then renig on the deal and be like, "Hahaha. Just kidding dudes. No need to do any of the righteous stuff, or change the contents of your hearts, which I spent my life talking about, just believe in my resurrection. See you in Heaven, baby. Jesus out." *poof*

This is the bastardization of Christianity I have been referring to. Only later, in John, do we get this ridiculous line, written an entire generation after the death of Jesus, by a writer who was not even present for the Gospel, a writer who literally identifies Jesus as the LOGOS: John 6:40: “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

So ask yourself how did we go from the will of the father being to love God and everyone else with all our hearts and have all this emphasis on the perfection of morality and virtue, to simply believing in Jesus' resurrection? Then ask yourself if you've been misled?

Here's another thing: OBVIOUSLY the method of faith alone works for SOME. Instill in yourself the faith that you are reborn, and you might just be reborn, be filled with the Holy Spirit, get those juicy gifts etc., and then life's all roses and candy and hating gay people. But it's hilarious that Christians think they have a monopoly on faith as a key to salvation: this method of spiritual transformation exists in MANY other traditions, including Hinduism, Islam, including Buddhism (Amitabha, anyone?) and on and on. Surrender works for many people, that's plain to see. But it's not the ONLY way.

 

[Lollipop2]

@gately I'm enjoying your posts mate. They're thought-provoking

+1 @gately good stuff.

 

[charlie]

Father has given over this earth age to satan. In the first earth age we walked with God. Satan got all puffed up and prideful and thought he could do it better then God, so he started pulling Father's children over to him. 1/3 of the children were lost to satan. So instead of destroying those children, he destroyed that earth age in the Katabole, the first Great flood, Noah's flood came later. So after that earth age was destroyed, he started this one. And gave it to satan so that the one's who were lost to satan, could see how satan truly is. So we are going through this, to win those 1/3 of Father's children back.

Soon, this earth age will be destroyed, and we will go to the Millennial Reign. This will be the 1000 years of teaching. Satan will be locked away, his spirit and the entity himself. He will have no influence at all during that time. And we will get to see what it's like to live under Jesus, without satan's influence. I believe, this is the time we will win many of Father's children back because they will realize how bad it was under satan. At the end of the 1000 years, satan is let out for a short season, for a final testing. And then Father comes down from Heaven for the final Judgement, then we move into the eternity.

 

[sweetpeat]

Only later, in John, do we get this ridiculous line, written an entire generation after the death of Jesus, by a writer who was not even present for the Gospel,

You don't believe the writer of the book of John is the same John mentioned in the other gospels?

 

[Momado965]

Interesting thread.

 

[gately]

I’m feeling the spirit move me today. Fueled by goat milk, beef, and a heretical itch to scratch, I’d say the only monastic I’ve ever loved was Brother Theodore, but brother Seraphim brings out the gift in me, so let a fever for the truth guide my hand now!

Another thing about Seraphim Rose that bothers me is his seeming condemnation of other religions as spiritually dangerous.

I’m going to be very clear here: ALL HIGHER FORMS OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE ARE DANGEROUS IF TAUGHT INCORRECTLY, which he clearly was during his tenure as New Ager in Chief of Haight Street, because Seraphim was exposed to the worst, most degenerate forms of new age garbage there ever was. There’s no question about that.

What do I mean by dangerous? Well, for example: Spiritual practice, of any kind (beyond Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds) especially combined with celibacy can lead to activation of the energy centers in the body. Some traditions call this Kundalini. (You see this most often in monastics, exactly because of that: the requirement of celibacy.)

Now let’s be very clear here: Kundalini will screw your life up. It is a BRUTAL process of transformation. (I myself went through the process, and still go through it.) You will experience ego death, you will see visions, and your body will feel like it’s on FIRE. It freaking SUCKS. And many people, simply go insane. Even Christians who accidentally stumble into this force of nature via ardent prayer.

Seraphim Rose seems to ignore the mountains of evidence of that Christians go through the EXACT same kundalini process that other spiritual traditions go through. What did he think the religious ecstasies of the saints were? They are the exact same phenomena! To a freaking T. Read about Saint Theresa of Avila’s ecstasy, or Saint Padre Pio’s, or any number of saints who went through that hellaciously funzo time and tell me with an honest face that they weren’t going through the exact same energy transformation as Gopi Krishna.

And let’s not forget the superhuman powers gifted by the Holy Spirit.

Like, did Seraphim really think there was a difference between the Siddhis (supernormal powers) of Hindu saints and the Orthodox and Catholic saints? They literally share the same list of powers. Even levitation is one of them for crying out loud! Saint Jospeh of Cupertino would fly around the rafters of his church in the 17th century. (I’ve read the nuns would try and swat the flying rascal down with brooms to no success, cause Cupy just wanted soar! Fun side note: I once owned a relic of Cupertino, but I gave it a Catholic friend who needed it more than I.)

Let me put this another way: Just how conceited do you have be to believe the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are exclusive to those who believe in Christ? Like God is capable of ANYTHING in your eyes, but he’s just super not into giving the gift of Wisdom, Fortitude, and Knowledge to those who might, say, pray to him by the name Allah, or Amitabha, or Krishna, or WAHEGURU? That’s just too much for freaking GOD to handle? Come on.

Or what about the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Are Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Goodness, etc, exclusive to your club? Here’s how insane this kind of mentally can get: evangelicals, who believe that faith alone is what fills them with the Holy Spirit, literally believe Orthodox or Catholics can’t actually have access to the Holy Spirit, because they BELIEVE incorrectly, and thus, haven’t actually been “born again” as if spirituality weren’t a personal revelation, as if conscious contact with God wasn’t the divine right of every human being, regardless of what bastardized version of Christianity you’ve been exposed to.

I understand the perspective that New Age religions are dangerous. I agree with that. But Seraphim’s whole bag seems to be: “Well, since that new age garbage was clearly false, I better go with one of the only Orthodox religions I can find here in San Fran, cause at least they have some truth.” And there’s nothing wrong with that! But he throws the baby out with the bath water and condemns all other religions without even earnestly exploring them, and makes the same mistake the evangelicals of today make: “Only one path to God, oh and it’s MY way.”

 

[Inaut]

One of the things I’ve questioned myself about the spiritual experiences of the saints and beloved elders is the fasting they do. I’m quite sure extreme starvation (through fasting) leads to audible and visual hallucinations. All ascetics of all faiths experience this while fasting, just in their own way...

As I said earlier, Elder Paisios was a very unique man and one of true grace IMO.... but he fasted for long periods of time even as a child. This has always been something I’ve thought about. Lastly, it seems that due to fasting and poor nutrition, these elders end up dying from cancer...Inthink both Seraphim Rose and Paisios both had bowel cancers

 

[Inaut]

If anybody is interested in other topics related to Orthodoxy/Christianity, I recommend you check out Jay Dyer and Sam Shamoun on YouTube. Jay has an arrogance that took me a while to get over but once I did, I’ve learned a lot and realized he’s extremely well read in theology, philosophy and rituals (Hollywood Decoded). Might take a while to warm up to Jay but it’s like getting a education in theology every time you watch his stuff.
Sam Shamoun is a Christian debater that has an amazing ability to recite biblical and Quranic scripture. He’s got a combative personality but I like his stuff as well.

 

[gately]

You don't believe the writer of the book of John is the same John mentioned in the other gospels?

I am not aware of any New Testament scholars who don't believe that the Gospel of John was written long after the synoptic gospels. I don't believe this is disputed within any denomination of Christianity. You can search this for yourself. It's even written in the prologue of John that Jesus is identified as the Logos. Think about that. Why would you identify Jesus as the Logos if you were there to witness the man yourself? As for the authorship: anonymous, obviously.

If you believe in the veracity of the Gospel of John, beyond the examples I've already given that prove something very wonky is going on there, I always point to the the stark difference in the cleansing of the temple:

Synoptic gospels: Jesus overthrows the moneylenders tables, says, "Don't do this ***t. It's bad, k?"
Gospel of John: "Boys...fetch the whip. We gots some Jews to bleed." (heavy southern accent.)

(Actually, kind of explains why the proverbial Boss Hoggs evangelicals like the Gospel of John so much, huh?)

Anyway, you tell me which version of the story of the world's greatest pacifist you think is more accurate?

 

[MatheusPN]

Sadly(in reference to your example), we as people have been given free will and some people will use that free will to inflict harm and pain on others. I see that as evil and in direct opposition to God’s will which is very much a different thing completely. I read the rest of your posts and there’s a bit too much to unpack for me. I’ll leave it at that but thanks for sharing your opinions.

Creatures capable of creating life, especially the ones who can predict the future and which:
Produces beings capable of being subversive, suicidal and cruel, who will respect it?
These creatures if they weren't unjust but intead just, they would create a humanity incapable of any heinous crime, which of raping innocents is incompetent; however, all beings known to create man as God is, conceived a creature competent to commit horrendous atrocities, possibly because these entities worship cruelty, they enjoy, gozam, they come with the disgrace of others and are enchanted by a barbaric and repulsive spectacle; they are passionate about the spectacle because they are capable of stopping it however over the millennia the attraction continues with increasingly horrifying refinements and that is the reason, why man has to: transcend these improbable and horrendous beings; really detestable deities!
They didn't give free will, because they intended for and wished for the horrendous things to happen, as they created and knew how it would be.
Who would be capable of admiring the creator of an horrendous alive spectacle/ experiment, brought simply for pleasure?
@raysputin related to your posts... Just to alert you

 

[TheSir]

@gately I'm enjoying your posts mate. They're thought-provoking

Agree. Bless your endotoxin.

Now let’s be very clear here: Kundalini will screw your life up. It is a BRUTAL process of transformation. (I myself went through the process, and still go through it.) You will experience ego death, you will see visions, and your body will feel like it’s on FIRE. It freaking SUCKS. And many people, simply go insane. Even Christians who accidentally stumble into this force of nature via ardent prayer.

Is this something that every seeker will eventually go through? The thought of biting more than I can chew is the last mental obstacle standing between me and ardent spiritual practice. I do feel the calling, but I am so afraid of the risks. Should one find themselves in the midst of such awakening, is there any principle, teaching or a mechanism to guarantee that they will emerge through sane and alive? What is the meaning, the purpose, and the consequence of such process in the first place? Is it a gift that you are given, a pathway that you activate, a glitch in the physiology of man, or something else?

 

[Peater]

Bless your endotoxin.

Let's not get carried away

 

[LUH 3417]

I am not aware of any New Testament scholars who don't believe that the Gospel of John was written long after the synoptic gospels. I don't believe this is disputed within any denomination of Christianity. You can search this for yourself. It's even written in the prologue of John that Jesus is identified as the Logos. Think about that. Why would you identify Jesus as the Logos if you were there to witness the man yourself? As for the authorship: anonymous, obviously.

If you believe in the veracity of the Gospel of John, beyond the examples I've already given that prove something very wonky is going on there, I always point to the the stark difference in the cleansing of the temple:

Synoptic gospels: Jesus overthrows the moneylenders tables, says, "Don't do this ***t. It's bad, k?"
Gospel of John: "Boys...fetch the whip. We gots some Jews to bleed." (heavy southern accent.)

(Actually, kind of explains why the proverbial Boss Hoggs evangelicals like the Gospel of John so much, huh?)

Anyway, you tell me which version of the story of the world's greatest pacifist you think is more accurate?

How many people would care about this stuff if they had their material and social needs met? Just an earnest question not trying to discredit your experiences and beliefs.

 

[TheSir]

How many people would care about this stuff if they had their material and social needs met? Just an earnest question not trying to discredit your experiences and beliefs.

Not him, but are you implying that having your needs met would strengthen or diminish one's interest in the subject? I can see how those who aren't doing well in life might be driven to a quest to transcend the world altogether. Yet, at the same time, I can see how those who have everything they ever wanted would also be compelled towards such a path. I think that in either case the matter is less about how well you are doing in life, and more about whether or not you recognize the transcience and superficiality of physical existence. It is this realization that urges one to declare "there must be more" and trust that this 'more' is somehow realer than everything else they have encountered so far.

 

[gately]

How many people would care about this stuff if they had their material and social needs met? Just an earnest question not trying to discredit your experiences and beliefs.

The Buddha had every single material and social need met you could possibly imagine, and he still left the palace grounds in search of the truth. One could probably even argue that the more your needs are met, the more the search for truth becomes all that's left to meaningful explore.

@TheSir I'm going to write an answer to your question next. Need to think on it.

 

[LUH 3417]

The Buddha had every single material and social need met you could possibly imagine, and he still left the palace grounds in search of the truth. One could probably even argue that the more your needs are met, the more the search for truth becomes all that's left to meaningful explore.

@TheSir I'm going to write an answer to your question next. Need to think on it.

No, he didn’t, because he knew that beyond the castle walls was squalor and inequality, so the need for fairness and the need for everyone around you to be in a good place was not met. Any thinking feeling breathing human should feel guilt and shame about that.