Orange Juice Lowers DHT?

JohnBonham

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https://www.researchgate.net/public...Inhibitor_of_5a-reductase_in_Hamster_Prostate

It's a hamster study, I know–but still. Orange Juice has Beta Sitosterol, which is very common in non-Peaty foods like nuts, vegetable oils, etc. Beta Sitosterol was found to reduce 5a-Reductase in the prostates of hamsters.

Everyone here drinks orange juice–so does Ray Peat. We avoid things like brown rice and vegetable oil because we don't want to reduce DHT. What if all the orange juice we've been chugging is doing just that? Chocolate has Beta Sitosterol, too, which is my absolute favorite food.

Is there not one pure and holy food on this God-forsaken planet? Something that doesn't have any drawbacks?
 

lampofred

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https://www.researchgate.net/public...Inhibitor_of_5a-reductase_in_Hamster_Prostate

It's a hamster study, I know–but still. Orange Juice has Beta Sitosterol, which is very common in non-Peaty foods like nuts, vegetable oils, etc. Beta Sitosterol was found to reduce 5a-Reductase in the prostates of hamsters.

Everyone here drinks orange juice–so does Ray Peat. We avoid things like brown rice and vegetable oil because we don't want to reduce DHT. What if all the orange juice we've been chugging is doing just that? Chocolate has Beta Sitosterol, too, which is my absolute favorite food.

Is there not one pure and holy food on this God-forsaken planet? Something that doesn't have any drawbacks?

My guess is that even though orange juice lowers 5a-reductase, because it lowers aromatase so much via naringenin the overall effect is still probably pro-androgen because the ratio of androgen to estrogen will be improved even though the absolute amount of DHT will go down. 5a-reductase is often elevated in response to excess estrogen.

I really don't think any of the foods Dr. Peat recommends will be found to be net estrogenic.
 

schultz

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I'm not sure it's well absorbed through the intestine. In the hamster study it was injected.

Apparently OJ contains roughly 0.42mg of beta-sitosterol per 100ml. In some of the human studies they were using over 100mg a day, like this study which used 130mg per day.
 

Arrade

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https://www.researchgate.net/public...Inhibitor_of_5a-reductase_in_Hamster_Prostate

It's a hamster study, I know–but still. Orange Juice has Beta Sitosterol, which is very common in non-Peaty foods like nuts, vegetable oils, etc. Beta Sitosterol was found to reduce 5a-Reductase in the prostates of hamsters.

Everyone here drinks orange juice–so does Ray Peat. We avoid things like brown rice and vegetable oil because we don't want to reduce DHT. What if all the orange juice we've been chugging is doing just that? Chocolate has Beta Sitosterol, too, which is my absolute favorite food.

Is there not one pure and holy food on this God-forsaken planet? Something that doesn't have any drawbacks?
Is it just in the prostate?
They should measure the serum levels as well. Lowering dht in a specific tissue that you want dht low may be beneficial, if it's isolated from serum
 

Zsazsa

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I consume OJ with the purpose of lowering DHT via its high Inositol content (study enclosed). It works wonders.

In the Ray Peat diet I suppose OJ balances milk intake (milk increases DHT big time - so do egg yolks as well).
 

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sebastian_r

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Orange juice definitely is reducing my DHT if I drink it alone.

Not only does it decrease my DHT, it jacks up my estradiol. I find fruits to be very feminizing overall.

White rice and coconut oil are strong DHT inhibitors as well for me (at least with coconut oil it reduces my estradiol as well).

Fruits and vegetables are overall not very DHT friendly.

I guess thats the reason why people need to supplement with DHT and K2 and DHEA and Vitamin E.....

Ps.: Found a post the other day here on the board citing this study that orange juice is even anti thyroid Comparative effect of Citrus sinensis and carbimazole on serum T4, T3 and TSH levels
 
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Arrade

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Orange juice definitely is reducing my DHT if I drink it alone.

Not only does it decrease my DHT, it jacks up my estradiol. I find fruits to be very feminizing overall.

White rice and coconut oil are strong DHT inhibitors as well for me (at least with coconut oil it reduces my estradiol as well).

Almost all fruits and vegetables are not very DHT friendly.

I guess thats the reason why many people here need to supplement with DHT and K2 and DHEA and Vitamin E.....
I haven’t noticed much in the way of OJ reducing DHT, just from sensation.
Idk why but I have had intense cravings for OJ and started to dislike milk.
 

Wagner83

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Orange juice definitely is reducing my DHT if I drink it alone.

Not only does it decrease my DHT, it jacks up my estradiol. I find fruits to be very feminizing overall.

White rice and coconut oil are strong DHT inhibitors as well for me (at least with coconut oil it reduces my estradiol as well).

Fruits and vegetables are overall not very DHT friendly.

I guess thats the reason why people need to supplement with DHT and K2 and DHEA and Vitamin E.....

Ps.: Found a post the other day here on the board citing this study that orange juice is even anti thyroid Comparative effect of Citrus sinensis and carbimazole on serum T4, T3 and TSH levels
What do you eat then? How do you know these foods reduce your dht? I don't think people can expand on the effects of a whole food based on one of their component.
 

sebastian_r

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What do you eat then? How do you know these foods reduce your dht? I don't think people can expand on the effects of a whole food based on one of their component.

Currently meat, egg yolks and dairy.

I have played around with aromatase inhibitors, proviron / masteron, testosterone, DHEA (5 years experience).

From that experience I know how high / low DHT and high / low estradiol feels (symptoms of it).

I did a full day only of orange juice, same with rice.

On the day of orange juice I was freezing cold and had low DHT.

On the day of rice I had low DHT but had no freezing issues, rather felt very warm.

Whenever I drink larger amounts of orange juice my skin becomes very soft and clear, hairloss stops, I lose my drive and focus / feel weaker, my muscles become flat, social awareness / anxiety creeps in. The opposite of what happens when I take DHT. If I take an AI or DHT it reverses.

That's anecdotal, n=1 and no bloodtests. Good enough for me, not good enough to make a general statement. That's why I said what orange juice, rice, coconut oil does for me not in general. Would never say with certainty that orange juice reduces DHT for everybody, it's only what I observe when I drink it.
 
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Wagner83

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Currently meat, egg yolks and dairy.

I have played around with aromatase inhibitors, proviron / masteron, testosterone, DHEA (5 years experience).

From that experience I know how high / low DHT and high / low estradiol feels (symptoms of it).

I did a full day only of orange juice, same with rice.

On the day of orange juice I was freezing cold and had low DHT.

On the day of rice I had low DHT but had no freezing issues, rather felt very warm.

Whenever I drink larger amounts of orange juice my skin becomes very soft and clear, hairloss stops, I lose my drive and focus / feel weaker, my muscles become flat, social awareness / anxiety creeps in. The opposite of what happens when I take DHT. If I take an AI or DHT it reverses.

That's anecdotal, n=1 and no bloodtests. Good enough for me, not good enough to make a general statement. That's why I said what orange juice, rice, coconut oil does for me not in general. Would never say with certainty that orange juice reduces DHT for everybody, it's only what I observe when I drink it.
Interesting! From what I see, you are on a ketogenic diet. Some people seem to do very well on such diets, but I wonder for how long. As for the full day on OJ, a lot of people have reported problems and freezing when on mostly liquid carbs. Perhaps combining rice/OJ/meat/fat has a different result. Is there any carb you can have without the drawbacks you mention?
 

sebastian_r

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Interesting! From what I see, you are on a ketogenic diet. Some people seem to do very well on such diets, but I wonder for how long. As for the full day on OJ, a lot of people have reported problems and freezing when on mostly liquid carbs. Perhaps combining rice/OJ/meat/fat has a different result. Is there any carb you can have without the drawbacks you mention?

Fully agree.

I don't want to be on a keto diet. I have better energy levels on high carb, just that finding a reliable carb source hasn't worked out yet.

Drinking 3 liter of orange juice and be done with carbs would be fantastic. Just that my DHT and Thyroid disagrees. Of course I could fix it with DHT and Thyroid supps, but that is nothing I want to do longterm. I rather eliminate what is causing the problems.

In terms of carbs:

- After eating grains got sick the first time in 4 years, not going down that route again.
- Many fruits seem to be feminizing / anti DHT and not so thyroid friendly.
- Rice comes with DHT issues, however it's very easy to diggest and I get great energy / thyroid from it. Maybe butter could make up for the negative DHT effect.
- Table sugar works without problems, not willing to use it as main carb source
- Potatos working fine, can't see me eating 1.5-2kg potatos every day

Not trying to hijack the thread btw. =)
 
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I've noticed the same issues and came to the same conclusions in terms of carbs.

Just eat fruits, rice, tubers and meat/fish/shellfish. And whatever dairy you tolerate (I don't). It works very well! I also supplement DHEA*proviron*cialis biweekly but that's because I've been on steroids for 2 years up until April this year, so I'm giving myself plenty of time to fully recover.
 

theLaw

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Fully agree.

I don't want to be on a keto diet. I have better energy levels on high carb, just that finding a reliable carb source hasn't worked out yet.

Drinking 3 liter of orange juice and be done with carbs would be fantastic. Just that my DHT and Thyroid disagrees. Of course I could fix it with DHT and Thyroid supps, but that is nothing I want to do longterm. I rather eliminate what is causing the problems.

Are you getting at least 1Tbsp of salt per day along proper calcium (2000mg+) and magnesium per day?

Also, what are you using to keep your gut sterile?
 

Arrade

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Currently meat, egg yolks and dairy.

I have played around with aromatase inhibitors, proviron / masteron, testosterone, DHEA (5 years experience).

From that experience I know how high / low DHT and high / low estradiol feels (symptoms of it).

I did a full day only of orange juice, same with rice.

On the day of orange juice I was freezing cold and had low DHT.

On the day of rice I had low DHT but had no freezing issues, rather felt very warm.

Whenever I drink larger amounts of orange juice my skin becomes very soft and clear, hairloss stops, I lose my drive and focus / feel weaker, my muscles become flat, social awareness / anxiety creeps in. The opposite of what happens when I take DHT. If I take an AI or DHT it reverses.

That's anecdotal, n=1 and no bloodtests. Good enough for me, not good enough to make a general statement. That's why I said what orange juice, rice, coconut oil does for me not in general. Would never say with certainty that orange juice reduces DHT for everybody, it's only what I observe when I drink it.
Not to downplay your experience but cold liquid fruit juice may be different metabolically from rice.
You’re lowering the energy required to digest your food by half or more.
Also it’s cold juice.

I could believe OJ reduces DHT but I hear it also lowered estrogen?
Or perhaps in conjunction with other foods the effect isn’t so catabolic.

@Elephanto posted some anti androgenic effects of lemons

I wonder still the net effects of OJ in a diverse, well rounded diet
 

BTD

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Is it the calcium d-glucarate present in orange juice that causes this? I've read that it both reduces aromatase and inhibits 5AR.
 

sebastian_r

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Jun 9, 2018
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Played around with pineapple juice today, couldn't notice an negative effect on DHT or Thyroid. Will use it as alternative to OJ.
I brush my teeth after drinking it to avoid gum problems from the bromelain.
 

Cameron

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I'm not sure it's well absorbed through the intestine. In the hamster study it was injected.

Apparently OJ contains roughly 0.42mg of beta-sitosterol per 100ml. In some of the human studies they were using over 100mg a day, like this study which used 130mg per day.
That's why I'm very skeptical of many of these 5ar inhibitory fats or compounds how much is actually needed in humans to consume to have effect? Not injected in rats or vitro!
 

Cameron

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Orange juice definitely is reducing my DHT if I drink it alone.

Not only does it decrease my DHT, it jacks up my estradiol. I find fruits to be very feminizing overall.

White rice and coconut oil are strong DHT inhibitors as well for me (at least with coconut oil it reduces my estradiol as well).

Fruits and vegetables are overall not very DHT friendly.

I guess thats the reason why people need to supplement with DHT and K2 and DHEA and Vitamin E.....

Ps.: Found a post the other day here on the board citing this study that orange juice is even anti thyroid Comparative effect of Citrus sinensis and carbimazole on serum T4, T3 and TSH levels
The bran in brown rice was shown to block dht not branless white rice unless there's a new study on white rice I don't know about
 

Cameron

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@haidut what are your thoughts of 5ar decrease from fruit or oj seems tropical foods contain this ability example avocado mango coconut oil oranges and there compounds. Would organic cherries be safer? @Salmonamb studies show more vitro and animal tests not human trials
 
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