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Oral Progesterone Increases Testosterone And DHT

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Apr 13, 2015.

  1. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

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    I wouldnt grant credence to any of that "DHT=bald" quackery. If any studies showed serum androgen levels having a positive affect on balding than likely they are small-scope non-causative associations. For example men with higher androgen levels have more hair in large studies. There are many cases where females bald just like men and have no DHT circulating. Danny Roddy has written extensively on the subject of stress hormones being the central cause of hairloss, and males being more susceptible due to lower progesterone levels, irrespective of T/DHT.

    The whole DHT blame came from a very simple, incorrect assumption: "Women don't have DHT and they don't go bald!!!"
     
  2. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    I'm bumping this. This is absolutely incredible. T levels rose by a factor of 2-4 and DHT by 7-11? This is very hard to believe. I am immediately going to begin testing this. Theoretically, a test level of 800 would double to 1600, but this seems unrealistic in human models.
     
  3. tobieagle

    tobieagle Guest

    Progesterone antagonizes testosterone, so in a way the effect of a given testosterone concentration in the blood depends on the prog-test ratio as well as other hormones ofc.
    So the increase of testosterone could just be an adaptation process to keep libido functioning etc.
    This would also explain why some men experience a dimished libido after taking progesterone, probably because their steroid synthesis (for adaptive compensation with increased testosterone) is suboptimal.

    I don't think there is any harm in supplementing progesterone as a man, but i don't think it will give you that many benefits if you are already in a good shape either.
     
  4. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

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    I have supplemented prog and what one must keep in mind is that the effects of androgens are relative to the anti-andro hormones also circulating. So 500dl of Test/200 prog could actually have a more androgenic effect than 800dl T/ 500 prog. Prog is anti-androgenic so the body produces more andro to compensate, but not enough to increase the ratio. :2cents
     
  5. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    So are you guys saying that I can't achieve a steroidal effect without injecting test like I originally planned? :(
     
  6. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

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    Not by taking a hormone that is inherently anti-androgenic. Progesterone is a "female" oriented hormone after all. What you need is DHEA cream. Take about 10mg at a time and dont take more than 20 mg each day, that stuff works wonders. It's literal awesomesauce. In small doses most of it is converted into Testosterone and subsequently DHT so it's similar to taking synthetic steroids but much healthier and without any real risk. You can further increase your androgens by taking supplements like taurine, zinc, vitamin c, vitamin e, and eating large amounts of protein. Goodluck!
     
  7. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    DHEA, 3 mg x4/day, check
    Taurine, 5g/day, check
    Vitamin E, 45 mg/day, check
    Protein 150 g/day, check

    I'll look into Zinc and Vitamin C. Zinc seems to be not recommended by Peat due to imbalances in the copper/zinc ratio, along with its tendency to raise adrenaline. As for Vitamin C, I believe he does not believe in supplementation. Nevertheless, more research is necessary.
     
  8. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

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    Interesting I'm not familiar with a relationship like that between copper/zinc. I've heard that >50mg would be inadvisable because of the adrenaline increase. I'm fit and 200lb so I my dosage is usually a bit higher than average, so maybe start with just 20mg daily. It is very effective as aromatase inhibitor though, so definitely worth a test run IMO

    Vitamin C is also aromatase inhibitor at high dosages, like over a gram.

    And you are doing aspirin correct? Even a little bit goes a long way, be sure to take with a large amount of vitamin k1 or k2, doesnt really matter which one.
     
  9. Brian

    Brian Member

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    Vitamin A, Thyroid (natural endogenous amounts if you are healthy should be enough), and large amounts of dietary cholesterol (3-12 egg yolks a day) are where it's at if you want to boost steroid production to levels nearly comparable with some synthetic steroids. Small amounts of DHEA will help too.
     
  10. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    I take about 2g aspirin daily and 2mg topical K2 from EstroBan. I will definitely look into doing a zinc test, or eat more oysters. Oysters are good.

    I stay away from egg yolks due to the PUFA (I already consume about 5g PUFA daily). Vitamin A I get from EstroBan, but I will definitely try thyroid as Thiroyd.
     
  11. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

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    Yeah absolutely, oysters have zinc + copper which are two key nutrients that are typically pretty scarce in foods. Liver and steak is the alternative.

    I agree with brian about the cholestrol because I'd used something similar to bulk up in high school. You can eliminate most of the pufa in eggs buy getting the pasture-raised variety, which are sold many places even in target. I recall a classic bodybuilder who wrote a book and claimed "eating 40 fertilized eggs is akin to taking ethyl-testosterone" While Im sure the conversion factor is more complex and dependent upon other numbers and nutrient intake and genetics, I eat about 24 eggs a day at one point and saw great gains. Back then I was worried about having a heart attack so I stopped (my chest really began hurting)
     
  12. brandonk

    brandonk Member

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    In my own experience, no matter how high testosterone goes it doesn't have the expected benefit if estrogen goes up in your tissues. Conversely, it helps enormously to reduce estrogen in the tissues while simply keeping testosterone the same.

    Estrogen is flushed out of the tissues effectively with Progest-E. I do three drops every ninety minutes, since well-dissolved progesterone is metaboiized very quickly. Apart from that, I just need a little DHEA dust, less than a milligram, and similarly tiny amounts of testosterone dissolved in Vitamin E and applied to thin skin membranes such as the scrotum or vagina. I also swallow microgram amounts of T3, and take small doses of niacinamide throughout the day.

    Ray Peat said this in email:
     
  13. Brian

    Brian Member

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    Unless you think you need to remove a lot of tissue PUFA I don't think there is any reason to avoid good quality egg yolks. With a well functioning liver and metabolism it can handle quite a bit of PUFA. I don't know for sure how much, but at least 6 egg yolks a day should pose no long term PUFA accumulation if the rest of your diet is saturated fats.

    The cholesterol in Egg yolks are the absolute best thing you can put in your body if you want more androgenic hormones. Most natural bodybuilders utilize them often going as high as 12 per day with results superior to synthetic hormones considering that there are no side effects.
     
  14. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    To update on my experiment, I just took 100 mg of USP grade progesterone sublingually, which hasn't really had much of an effect beyond that brought on by pregnenolone; a calming and stress-killing wave of relaxation.

    UPDATE: I took about 500 mg of progesterone about an hour after the first dose, and I experienced a deep wave of relaxation as before, but to a far greater extent, much like pregnenolone. The relaxation was so powerful (not benzo-like however) that it produced some degree of anxiety, oddly enough. I enjoyed the experience, but I did not experience an incredible boost in libido or anything similar, but I may need to take an extended dose for a certain period of time.

    I'm curious to know if the supplementation of progesterone or pregnenolone hampers natural production to any degree, such as is the case with excess DHEA (above 15-20 mg per day,) T3 (above 4 mcg per hour,) and testosterone (any amount to my knowledge.)
     
  15. beachbum

    beachbum Member

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    Hello,

    I may not be that educated but I have read like another poster posted that you need high doses because if you dont take a high dose when you first start using progesterone it will stimulate testosterone first then estrogen and if you don't keep it high ( going by symptoms) then it just keeps circulating, now using at least 100-200mg a day (some may be good with that, I use about 300mg which isn't enough but can't afford yet to use more) for most females it would work but take longer and have more symptoms to deal with. This site is where I got this info from

    http://Www.progesteronetherapy.com

    So far l have been using it for almost a month and it saved my life.

    I stopped vitamin d and mag because they increase testosterone. Im currently trying to speed up the process by possibly suppressing testosterone and estrogen until I reach my progesterone/estrogen ratio by upping my SHBG and decreasing aromatase. Im currently reading if this is a good or not or just do one or none and just be patient. Thing is my ratio is extremely low p/e and testosterone is high, well androgens. I also stopped all supplements and just using progesterone cream as of now.

    Thank you for your patience.
    Susan
     
  16. James_001

    James_001 Member

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    Does anyone know if DHT will shut down endogenous production of hormones?? thanks
     
  17. unexamined_whimsy

    unexamined_whimsy Member

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    Yes, in the usual replacement doses it does shut you down (see below). However, perhaps it's possible to get away with it at very low doses like a few mg.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6363434

    Effects of 10 days administration of percutaneous dihydrotestosterone on the pituitary-testicular axis in normal men.

    "The results of this study demonstrate that 10-days DHT administration has an inhibitory effect on the hypothalamo-pituitary-testicular axis in normal men."
     
  18. Agent207

    Agent207 Member

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    I'm confused now, ins't topical progesterone supposed to reduce 5-AR activity?
     
  19. cantstoppeating

    cantstoppeating Member

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    That study used a transdermal dose of 125mg of DHT a day which would obviously shut down endogenous production. The average man produces about 5mg of testosterone a day, with a percentage of it converted to DHT. Even if we assume a 10% absorption rate from the transdermal DHT, 12.5mg is still close to ten times what the body naturally produces.

    I've read, through haidut, that Peat recommends about 1-3mg of DHT a day if you choose to use it.
     
  20. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I think this is one of the biggest myths in the blogosphere. In fact, both pregnenolone and progesterone seem to at least not interfere with 5-AR activity and potentially raise it. Lower dose progesterone is used as a pro-drug for raising levels of allopregnanolone and allopregnanolone is synthesized through 5-AR.
    Allopregnanolone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "...Increased levels of allopregnanolone can produce paradoxical effects, including negative mood, anxiety, irritability, and aggression.[28][29][30] This appears to be because allopregnanolone possesses biphasic, U-shaped actions at the GABAA receptor – moderate level increases (in the range of 1.5–2 nM/L total allopregnanolone, which are approximately equivalent to luteal phase levels) inhibit the activity of the receptor, while lower and higher concentration increases stimulate it.[28][29] This seems to be a common effect of many GABAA receptor positive allosteric modulators.[25][30] In accordance, acute administration of low doses of micronized progesterone (which reliably elevates allopregnanolone levels), have been found to have negative effects on mood, while higher doses have a neutral effect."

    "...However, exogenous progesterone, such as oral micronized progesterone (OMP), reliably elevates allopregnanolone levels in the body with good dose-to-serum level correlations.[32] Due to this, it has been suggested that OMP could be described as a prodrug of sorts for allopregnanolone.[32] As a result, there has been some interest in using OMP to treat catamenial epilepsy,[33] as well as other menstrual cycle-related and neurosteroid-associated conditions."

    Finally, anything that interferes with 5-AR will probably cause depression and drugs like Finasteride are well-known for that effect. Progesterone is used to treat depression, so I think the combination of evidence points to pregnenolone and progesterone being 5-AR enhancers if anything. Catatoxic steroids are known to speed up enzyme activity and that includes the steroidogenic enzymes except aromatase and 11b-HSD1.
     
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