Optimizing trt

tommyg130

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
664
Location
new york
How to optimize trt. I’m on test cream on the balls.

When turning the HPTA off what else is happening as a result.

I supplement dhea preg and prog to make up for the lack of those being produced once you start exogenous T. The pituitary controls the thyroid? Correct ? Would adding t3 to a trt protocol be imperative ? Thanks for any thoughts !
 

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
How to optimize trt. I’m on test cream on the balls.

When turning the HPTA off what else is happening as a result.

I supplement dhea preg and prog to make up for the lack of those being produced once you start exogenous T. The pituitary controls the thyroid? Correct ? Would adding t3 to a trt protocol be imperative ? Thanks for any thoughts !
It depends on how long you're going to be on T. Supplementing the precursors will help, with preg and DHEA likely to be the most beneficial. However, they might not prevent testicular shrinkage. LH stimulates testicular steroidogenic enzymes, which convert preg to downstream hormones as well as enhances selenium uptake into the testes. Selenium is a powerful anti-oxidant and protects the testes against oxidative stress. So HCG might help a lot if you're going to be on TRT long term.
 

AspiringSage

Member
Joined
May 8, 2022
Messages
178
Location
WA, USA
Why are so many people here on TRT? Overwhelmingly seem to be young men. Strange.
I’ve noticed the same thing, it’s scary. I’ve seen 25 year olds with numbers that would be normal in 75 year olds. I think the causes are multi factorial as are the solutions. We are seeing the results of decades of endocrine disrupting chemicals, diets and sedentary lifestyles.

There is a huge wave of younger people with really messed up endocrine systems. Many of them could get better with commitment to diet, an aggressive exercise regime and a few years of hard effort. I also think many of them will never fully recover without TRT/HRT.

As a recoverable or non-recoverable case. Its hard to start on a path of recovery with terrible sleep, deep depression and poor response to hard workouts. Most of us in the developed world are conditioned to embrace pharmacological solutions to health problems. So, there is a cultural aspect to the solution space that’s manifesting on web forums. That doesn’t change the fact that TRT/HRT is positively life changing for many.

It’s also going to have profound health and fertility implications. The good news is that the people here on TRT/HRT are getting better holistic support than they might elsewhere.
 

Attachments

  • 2E459546-D74E-462D-B93E-C59C311532B5.jpeg
    2E459546-D74E-462D-B93E-C59C311532B5.jpeg
    945.5 KB · Views: 10
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
I’ve noticed the same thing, it’s scary. I’ve seen 25 year olds with numbers that would be normal in 75 year olds. I think the causes are multi factorial as are the solutions. We are seeing the results of decades of endocrine disrupting chemicals, diets and sedentary lifestyles.

There is a huge wave of younger people with really messed up endocrine systems. Many of them could get better with commitment to diet, an aggressive exercise regime and a few years of hard effort. I also think many of them will never fully recover without TRT/HRT.

As a recoverable or non-recoverable case. Its hard to start on a path of recovery with terrible sleep, deep depression and poor response to hard workouts. Most of us in the developed world are conditioned to embrace pharmacological solutions to health problems. So, there is a cultural aspect to the solution space that’s manifesting on web forums. That doesn’t change the fact that TRT/HRT is positively life changing for many.

It’s also going to have profound health and fertility implications. The good news is that the people here on TRT/HRT are getting better holistic support than they might elsewhere.

I think the other thing is, these young men take HUGE amounts of testosterone. It's utterly insane.

I don't think taking TRT is necessarily bad. But they write off progesterone and DHEA as if it only works for older guys. @Hans said this too. I am not so sure.

And I am positive that taking 100mg of T per day is bad. You will end up with high red count, and down regulated hormones.

Dr. Peat's view is always that less is the best way, that using less is better than using more. That is thrown out the window here.

It's not my problem or my business, but I am sharing my viewpoint on the matter.
 

AspiringSage

Member
Joined
May 8, 2022
Messages
178
Location
WA, USA
I think the other thing is, these young men take HUGE amounts of testosterone. It's utterly insane.

I don't think taking TRT is necessarily bad. But they write off progesterone and DHEA as if it only works for older guys. @Hans said this too. I am not so sure.

And I am positive that taking 100mg of T per day is bad. You will end up with high red count, and down regulated hormones.

Dr. Peat's view is always that less is the best way, that using less is better than using more. That is thrown out the window here.

It's not my problem or my business, but I am sharing my viewpoint on the matter.

I generally agree, less is often more. 700mg of injectable testosterone a week is very high. There are tons of side effects and there are lots of fussy management implications to doses like that - estrogen, prolactin and nurosteroids.

However, it’s important to remember that the body has other feedback systems/recourse than simply shutting down natural production. Prolonged use at high doses is going to trigger down regulation of receptor expression. And long before that occurs there is a simple matter of receptor saturation e.g. you keep adding more testosterone and less happens.

Somewhere, I have a copy of an older French study that showed maximum returns vs dose at approximately 300mg per week. I’m not advocating that dose for TRT, I’m just sharing what I recall the study finding.

There is a huge disconnect between how different self organized tribes think about, use and even talk about these substances. Hopefully, threads like this can facilitate intertribal knowledge transfer.

I think the first glimmer of that happening is nurosteroids becoming a common topic in the TRT/HRT community.

The second indication that it’s happening is a renewed interest in topicals in the TRT/HRT community.
 

AspiringSage

Member
Joined
May 8, 2022
Messages
178
Location
WA, USA
How to optimize trt. I’m on test cream on the balls.

When turning the HPTA off what else is happening as a result.

I supplement dhea preg and prog to make up for the lack of those being produced once you start exogenous T. The pituitary controls the thyroid? Correct ? Would adding t3 to a trt protocol be imperative ? Thanks for any thoughts !

Well first things first you are providing more testosterone as a substrate for the aromatase enzyme - so estrogen is a concern. Your use of a trans scrotal cream should minimize this issue via increased DHT, but it doesn’t eliminated it for everyone.

One consequence of TRT related suppression that comes to mind is a lack of luteinizing hormone. Many people assume that LH’s only job is to stimulate production of testosterone in the gonads - I think this is an oversimplification.

LH is like a slightly modified/specialized version of HCG (I believe that LH only appears in human males). From looking at a tree of life and noting where HCG is present vs estrogen vs testosterone. I am left with a suspicion that HCG is a protoestrogen. It’s a remnant of a hormonal system that was once primary. That system has long since been augmented by additional layers that now handle most of the organisms needs; but, I think assuming that LH is fully reduced to a signaling hormone is myopic.

Thus, my lab ferret would suggest that you considering adding HCG to your TRT protocol. A small dose of HCG twice a week will keep your natural production kicking along at a higher rate. The HCG will improve your sex drive, it will help substitute for missing LH. Low dose HCG seems to help many people with nurosteroid deprivation related symptoms. I feel much better on low dose HCG + TRT than on other forms of TRT alone. I’ve also experimented with enclomiphene; but, have recently backed off.

If estrogen becomes a problem then consider exemestane. I would also suggest pregnenolone, allopregnanolone, asprin and taurine. I know Peat is suspect of taking individual amino acids, but I think there is good evidence for supplementing with taurine.

Watch out for changes in estrogen and prolactin levels. Have your TSH, T4 and T3 checked. Keep track of your basal temp every morning.
 
Last edited:

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
I don't think taking TRT is necessarily bad. But they write off progesterone and DHEA as if it only works for older guys. @Hans said this too. I am not so sure.
It's all context. In the context of hormone optimization, they do nearly nothing. But they can do a lot in changing how you feel, which is obviously what matters most. But I've had many guys tell me that they don't respond at all to DHEA or preg and in some cases even felt worse (more so from preg than DHEA).
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
It's all context. In the context of hormone optimization, they do nearly nothing. But they can do a lot in changing how you feel, which is obviously what matters most. But I've had many guys tell me that they don't respond at all to DHEA or preg and in some cases even felt worse (more so from preg than DHEA).

progesterene + DHEA is what I am referring to, not pregnenolone + DHEA.

I've found prog + DHEA works very reliably for most men to raise T often by a lot. But I have not had a lot of experience with very young men using this approach so you may be right.

Everyone wants to jump to large dose, unphysiological esterified TRT.
 

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
progesterene + DHEA is what I am referring to, not pregnenolone + DHEA.

I've found prog + DHEA works very reliably for most men to raise T often by a lot. But I have not had a lot of experience with very young men using this approach so you may be right.

Everyone wants to jump to large dose, unphysiological esterified TRT.
I'm truly interested in how effective the prog + DHEA worked. Can you list a couple of numbers of gents who used it, namely from where to where their test went from using the combo? Also, how much they used and for how long. And lastly, if that was the only change they made.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
I'm truly interested in how effective the prog + DHEA worked. Can you list a couple of numbers of gents who used it, namely from where to where their test went from using the combo? Also, how much they used and for how long. And lastly, if that was the only change they made.

it's pretty tough. I have men who have done this and their T has tripled from low levels. They tend to be over 50 or over 60. I can't be as specific as you would like, sadly.
 

Validus

Member
Joined
May 11, 2022
Messages
263
Location
USA
I think the other thing is, these young men take HUGE amounts of testosterone. It's utterly insane.

I don't think taking TRT is necessarily bad. But they write off progesterone and DHEA as if it only works for older guys. @Hans said this too. I am not so sure.

And I am positive that taking 100mg of T per day is bad. You will end up with high red count, and down regulated hormones.

Dr. Peat's view is always that less is the best way, that using less is better than using more. That is thrown out the window here.

It's not my problem or my business, but I am sharing my viewpoint on the matter.
It's not guarantee that everyone will end up with high hemoglobin and hematocrit. You will however end up with other hormone disruptions since trt causes LH and FSH to approach zero.
 

Similar threads

P
Replies
21
Views
5K
PointOutside
P
Back
Top Bottom