Optimal Sodium Intake Is At Least 230% Higher Than RDA

[stargazer1111]

Also, it looks as though that method was developed to determine drug doses. I wonder if this should also be applied to nutrients like sodium chloride that aren't processed by the liver. This method seems to take into account the differences in metabolism which involves the liver. But, I'm not an expert in drug metabolism so can't claim to know for sure.

 

[stargazer1111]

0.25%* of 3 grams of food: 7.5 mg NaCl/d. *(there's no doubt that it was based on diet, it was next to other constituents)
7.5 mg ÷ [25 g (mice weight) × 1000 g]: 300 mg/kg.
300 mg ÷ 12.3 (equivalence to humanoid): 25 mg/kg.
25 mg × 70 kg: 1.7 g NaCl/d.

Right, but this is the low-salt group. The high-salt group is still getting supraphysiological doses of sodium:

Using your calculations above and simply replacing the 0.25% with the 3.15% of the high-salt diet, you get 94.5 mg NaCl/d. That equates to 3,780 mg/kg of body weight. Correcting for the error between mice and humans based on the paper you posted, (3,780 mg/kg)/12.3 = 315 mg/kg in humans which is 23,625 mg of NaCl per day or 9,450 mg of sodium per day for a 75 kg person.

The average sodium intake in the United States is 3.4 grams per day (9 out of 10 Americans Eat Too Much Sodium Infographic). Of course some consume more or less than the average, but 9.45 grams of sodium per day is far higher than what most humans consume, even the ones who eat higher salt diets.

A better comparison would have been to include a middle-ground group and give it the equivalent of 4.5 grams of sodium per day since this is what the lowest all-cause mortality is seen at in humans.

EDIT: You used a 70 kg person, so to be fair that would mean 8.82 grams of sodium per day. It's still far too high.

 

[Amazoniac]

Right, but this is the low-salt group. The high-salt group is still getting supraphysiological doses of sodium:

Using your calculations above and simply replacing the 0.25% with the 3.15% of the high-salt diet, you get 94.5 mg NaCl/d. That equates to 3,780 mg/kg of body weight. Correcting for the error between mice and humans based on the paper you posted, (3,780 mg/kg)/12.3 = 315 mg/kg in humans which is 23,625 mg of NaCl per day or 9,450 mg of sodium per day for a 75 kg person.

The average sodium intake in the United States is 3.4 grams per day (9 out of 10 Americans Eat Too Much Sodium Infographic). Of course some consume more or less than the average, but 9.45 grams of sodium per day is far higher than what most humans consume, even the ones who eat higher salt diets.

A better comparison would have been to include a middle-ground group and give it the equivalent of 4.5 grams of sodium per day since this is what the lowest all-cause mortality is seen at in humans.

EDIT: You used a 70 kg person, so to be fair that would mean 8.82 grams of sodium per day. It's still far too high.

The low falls within the range in the link, whereas the high, you'll find members reporting such intakes, just return to the original post, here, etc.
- Excess Magnesium Chloride Intake Causes Frank Acidosis

 

[stargazer1111]

The low dose does fall within the range, and I concede that point.

However, the high reports on this forum are anecdotal outliers. Like I said earlier, it would be more helpful to test doses of around 4.5 grams per day since this is about where the lowest all-cause mortality is seen. My guess is that no such change in the gut microbiome would be seen with that dose.

Also, I should point out that, despite the results with the low-salt group in this study, all-cause mortality increases dramatically at intakes in that range. So, the net result is most likely harmful with that intake anyway.

 

[postman]

Just wanted to pop in and say vitamin k supplementation fixed my bad reaction to calcium, and calcium supplementation fixed my bad reaction to sodium

 

[stargazer1111]

Just wanted to pop in and say vitamin k supplementation fixed my bad reaction to calcium, and calcium supplementation fixed my bad reaction to sodium

I have noticed that when I don't get both a lot of calcium and vitamin k2, I get bad breath quickly and very sensitive teeth. Calcium and k2 remove this. I even wake up in the morning with neutral breath when I get enough calcium and k2. K2 has been shown to remove the pathogenic bacteria in the mouth that cause bad breath and I think this is why.

I have to keep the calcium intake high, though. If I take K2 without calcium, I get symptoms of hypocalcemia (parasthesia in my fingers and toes, visual migraines, bone pain). I am on the autism spectrum and have high levels of oxalates in my blood which I think leads me to need much more calcium than non-autistic people. The higher the oxalate in your blood, the less calcium is available for use by the cells, so I think autistic people and others with higher oxalate levels have increased calcium requirements. I even passed a calcium oxalate kidney stone when I was only 24 years old which is unusual. I feel really bad without a lot of calcium, so I try to get about 3 grams per day.

 

[Amazoniac]

The low dose does fall within the range, and I concede that point.

However, the high reports on this forum are anecdotal outliers. Like I said earlier, it would be more helpful to test doses of around 4.5 grams per day since this is about where the lowest all-cause mortality is seen. My guess is that no such change in the gut microbiome would be seen with that dose.

Also, I should point out that, despite the results with the low-salt group in this study, all-cause mortality increases dramatically at intakes in that range. So, the net result is most likely harmful with that intake anyway.

You can find people reporting consuming as much as 2.5 tbsp/d, therefore 1 1/4 of tbsp (22 g NaCl) isn't difficult to achieve. In that regional intake figure, for there to be a high average, it's cogi and table to have more consumers below than above the mark, so there must be enormous intakes responsible for increasing the average.

The experiment was a comparison of low and high intakes after all, not usual quantities, and regardless if these is healthy or not, both are feasible: researchers weren't doing unattainable stuff. Animals wouldn't have increased their consumption after adapting to it, they probably found it salty initially, just like someone that's not used to eating so much of it would find weaseed, miso, sauces, etc, unappealing and consume less before getting accustomed.
Those proportions weren't arbitrary either, there are other experiments using them as well.

- High Salt Intake, Its Origins, Its Economic Impact, and Its Effect on Blood Pressure

"The addiction for salt also must have been exacerbated by its increasing availability. The change from a nomadic to an agricultural way of life gave rise to settled communities, between which trade began to flourish. Salt became a precious article of commerce. About 1,000 years ago, salt intake in the Western world had risen to about 5 g/day. It continued to rise until the 19th century when, in Europe, it was about 18 g/day. In the 16th century in Sweden, daily salt intake rose to 100 g/day due to the high consumption of salted fish. The worldwide reduction to an average of 10 g/day during the 20th century is probably the result of the introduction of refrigeration."​

Why was you relying on an analysis for urinary excretion of sodium? It's a reflect of a state, not how much you need to replace to minimize mortality. It's akin to looking at the water excretion that's associated with the lowest death rates and suggesting that this is the best amount to consume. Subjects also had chronic problems.

There were people excreting 12 g of sodium a day, what if this loss is a result of some pathological process and not just a consequence of excessive intake? How to compensate for it by ingesting 4.5 g/d without being stressful? Isn't it possible that consuming less in these cases could also speed up degeneration? I doubt that gurus are seeking harm in their choices.

And if we was to judge based on such analysis, the low and high equivalent amounts show similar risks:

Spoiler

I think that it's pointless to discuss optimal intake for salt without context (there is currently no RDA for it), perhaps those people need greater intakes but they have to be made safer by increasing everything else along, which probably doesn't occur when excess is supplemented, leading then to adverse effects. It's better to propose reasonable ranges for people to do a wary if their consumption is too off.

 

[stargazer1111]

While there is no RDA for sodium, there is an AI of 2.3 g per day which I believe is foolish.

Animals evolved with a salt craving mechanism which is pretty accurate. If you're craving salt, you need it. Yes, it could be an indication that another problem is present that is causing sodium loss, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be eating the extra salt. You should always eat salt to taste because you crave it for a reason.

I believe the same is true about sugar.

Also, people generally consume 1.5-1.75 tsp of salt daily. https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/salt-and-our-health/

Anyone consuming tablespoons of salt is an outlier and is likely not to be relevant to the discussion of what is appropriate for most people.

 

[PeatPeeve]

Whenever I eat above RDA amounts of salt, I get extreme water retention, especially around my face the day after. I also feel almost hungover. Not sure why this is?

 

[Braveheart]

Thanks, excellent read.....https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/salt-and-our-health/

 

[stargazer1111]

Whenever I eat above RDA amounts of salt, I get extreme water retention, especially around my face the day after. I also feel almost hungover. Not sure why this is?

I get the same problem if I eat more than tastes good. Are you forcing yourself to eat more than you crave, or do you actually crave that much?

 

[PeatPeeve]

I get the same problem if I eat more than tastes good. Are you forcing yourself to eat more than you crave, or do you actually crave that much?

Not at all. I try to limit my salt for the same reason. I usually crave it though, and so having to limit myself kinda sucks. If I eat salt 100% intuitively, I'll be very puffy the day after.

 

[stargazer1111]

Not at all. I try to limit my salt for the same reason. I usually crave it though, and so having to limit myself kinda sucks. If I eat salt 100% intuitively, I'll be very puffy the day after.

That's interesting. I wonder if your aldosterone is elevated despite the salt intake.

Do you get a lot of potassium? Potassium tends to elevate aldosterone which can cause sodium retention and hence water retention. I try to keep my potassium in check for this reason. If I get too much, I end up with the same problem you're describing.

 

[PeatPeeve]

That's interesting. I wonder if your aldosterone is elevated despite the salt intake.

Do you get a lot of potassium? Potassium tends to elevate aldosterone which can cause sodium retention and hence water retention. I try to keep my potassium in check for this reason. If I get too much, I end up with the same problem you're describing.

Yeah, I've actually been suspecting that it might be a fault with aldosterone myself. Just not exactly sure why.. And potassium -- unfortunately, I actually think I might be lacking potassium in my diet!

Do you get the same experience as me if you eat salt intuitively, or only if you force a high intake?

 

[stargazer1111]

Yeah, I've actually been suspecting that it might be a fault with aldosterone myself. Just not exactly sure why.. And potassium -- unfortunately, I actually think I might be lacking potassium in my diet!

Do you get the same experience as me if you eat salt intuitively, or only if you force a high intake?

Only if I force it. There was a time long ago when I would retain water after eating salt to taste but that was back when I ate garbage all the time. It was especially bad after eating pizza but I'm not entirely sure why.

It might be good to see an MD about it. They can check your mineralocorticoid levels and possibly start ruling things out.

 

[baccheion]

Whenever I eat above RDA amounts of salt, I get extreme water retention, especially around my face the day after. I also feel almost hungover. Not sure why this is?

There can initially be retention. On the other hand, it goes away after 2-3 weeks if higher doses are continued.

 

[Amazoniac]

While there is no RDA for sodium, there is an AI of 2.3 g per day which I believe is foolish.

Animals evolved with a salt craving mechanism which is pretty accurate. If you're craving salt, you need it. Yes, it could be an indication that another problem is present that is causing sodium loss, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be eating the extra salt. You should always eat salt to taste because you crave it for a reason.

I believe the same is true about sugar.

Also, people generally consume 1.5-1.75 tsp of salt daily. https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/salt-and-our-health/

Anyone consuming tablespoons of salt is an outlier and is likely not to be relevant to the discussion of what is appropriate for most people.

The first objection was that they didn't provide enough data, they did. The second was that both amounts were not physiological, they were. The third, that these are not optimal, yet the experiment wasn't intending to find out what is, they wanted to compare the effects of low and high intakes. Fourth, that there should've been an intermediate group extrapolating the values from information on the urinary excretion of sodium that's associated with the lowest mortality in those that are dealing with chronic issues, but I have no idea why you brought this up as reference for reasonable intakes.


--
Out of the curiosity:

- Modern Nutrition in Wealth and Disease (978-1-60547-461-8)

Spoiler: Sodium chloride difference of major food groups

 

[stargazer1111]

The first objection was that they didn't provide enough data, they did. The second was that both amounts were not physiological, they were. The third, that these are not optimal, yet the experiment wasn't intending to find out what is, they wanted to compare the effects of low and high intakes. Fourth, that there should've been an intermediate group extrapolating the values from information on the urinary excretion of sodium that's associated with the lowest mortality in those that are dealing with chronic issues, but I have no idea why you brought this up as reference for reasonable intakes.


--
- Modern Nutrition in Wealth and Disease (978-1-60547-461-8)

Spoiler: Sodium chloride difference of major food groups

View attachment 14528

No, actually they aren't both physiological. I have stated several times that 8.8-9.5 grams of sodium per day is supraphysiological because the majority of human beings get nowhere near this amount. You continually attempt to cite extreme outliers on this forum who claim to be consuming several tablespoons per day as evidence that 8.8-9.5 grams of sodium per day is physiological but you are wrong.

Your third point is a strawman. I never claimed they were trying to found out what is optimal. I claimed that it would be more beneficial for us if they WERE trying to find out what is optimal. Studying extreme ends of the salt intake spectrum is useless because, again, the majority of people do not consume these amounts and it makes me suspicious that they chose to feed the mice extreme levels of sodium to force the data to fit their preconceived notions about salt intake.

The fourth point was corroborated by the Price article I cited. An intermediate group consuming somewhere between 3 and 5 grams of sodium per day would more accurately represent what the majority of humans consume and would thus make the study more useful.

 

[Amazoniac]

No, actually they aren't both physiological. I have stated several times that 8.8-9.5 grams of sodium per day is supraphysiological because the majority of human beings get nowhere near this amount. You continually attempt to cite extreme outliers on this forum who claim to be consuming several tablespoons per day as evidence that 8.8-9.5 grams of sodium per day is physiological but you are wrong.

Your third point is a strawman. I never claimed they were trying to found out what is optimal. I claimed that it would be more beneficial for us if they WERE trying to find out what is optimal. Studying extreme ends of the salt intake spectrum is useless because, again, the majority of people do not consume these amounts and it makes me suspicious that they chose to feed the mice extreme levels of sodium to force the data to fit their preconceived notions about salt intake.

The fourth point was corroborated by the Price article I cited. An intermediate group consuming somewhere between 3 and 5 grams of sodium per day would more accurately represent what the majority of humans consume and would thus make the study more useful.

It's possible to obtain those amounts throughout the day without leading to extreme imbalances, so it's physiological dosing in spite of being very high at the end of the day. For example 5x 1.8 g (found in people's meals).
Therefore 9 g is something feasible and people have definitely consumed much greater doses, such as the brutal 30 g of sodium/d posted above.

It's obvious that having a middle-term is better, but we have people here consuming both ends, and it's relevant to know what can occur on the opposite extreme. How is this useless?

If people are not seeking harm in what they is doing and some of the subjects were losing 12 g of sodium a day in your uploaded analysis, where is it coming from?

 

[postman]

Animals evolved with a salt craving mechanism which is pretty accurate. If you're craving salt, you need it. Yes, it could be an indication that another problem is present that is causing sodium loss, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be eating the extra salt. You should always eat salt to taste because you crave it for a reason.

I believe the same is true about sugar.

I agree and I think the same is probably true for just about any substance.

Whenever I eat above RDA amounts of salt, I get extreme water retention, especially around my face the day after. I also feel almost hungover. Not sure why this is?

You probably need calcium and vitamin k to use that calcium properly, that fixed it for me.