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Optimal Dose Of Pregnenolone For Androgen Synthesis

  1. There was a recent discussion about high dose pregnenolone on the forum and some people sent Peat my comments that high dose pregnenolone can inhibit androgen synthesis. Peat replied that he has not seen such effects, but did not directly speak against the idea. Privately, I got quite a few messages accusing me of making stuff up. Well, I was not making stuff up, I was referring to an actual study and also to reports of people who found pregnenolone beyond 200mg daily killed their sex drive. Doses below 100mg had largely stimulating effect on libido and muscle tone, indicative of an androgen boost. The larger doses, as we know from the schizophrenia studies, converted mainly into progesterone and allopregnanolone.
    So, here is the study suggesting that there is indeed an optimal range of pregnenolone concentration so that it stimulates the conversion of said pregnenolone down the androgen pathways. Higher than the optimal concentration was suppressive of androgen synthesis from pregnenolone. Unfortunately, the optimal pregnenolone concentrations are different for stimulating androstenedione, DHEA, and 17-OH-pregnenolone synthesis so there is no one size fits all. But I think aiming for not exceeding the optimal concentration that simulated DHEA synthesis (about 2uM) maximally would be a good compromise. Also, as you can see, pregnenolone stimulated synthesis of progesterone in any concentration. So, for androgens synthesis pregnenolone seems to have a bi-phasic effect while for progesterone it is stimulating in any dose. The latter part matches well the human studies with large doses pregnenolone.
    While this study concerns mostly oral administration of pregnenolone, application to the scrotum is probably also subject to some restrictions in terms of optimal dose. Some people using the topical approach already noted that higher than 10mg dose of pregnenolone on the scrotum gave them symptoms of progesterone rather than androgen synthesis.
    Finally, the study makes the claim that the further away a derivative of pregnenolone is from pregnenolone in the steroid pathways, the more sensitive it is to inhibition of its synthesis by pregnenolone. You can see this effect in the attached image. Lower concentrations of pregnenolone were needed to inhibit androstenedione synthesis than DHEA, since androstenedione is further away from pregnenolone. The next androgen down the line being testosterone, the pregnenolone concentration for its inhibition may be even lower than the one for androstenedione.
    TLDR: In lower concentrations pregnenolone increases synthesis of both androgens and progesterone. In higher concentrations, it inhibits androgen synthesis but continues to stimulate progesterone synthesis. If the progesterone synthesis pathway becomes too dominant (as was seen with high dose pregnenolone in humans), that can lead to the anti-androgenic side effects associated with progesterone.

    Variation in 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity and in pregnenolone supply rate can paradoxically alter androstenedione synthesis. - PubMed - NCBI
    "...Results of the steady-state analysis in which supply of pregnenolone (P5) is varied between 0.01 and 10 uM/s, a sufficiently wide range to capture of all qualitative results, are shown in Fig. 5. Parameters other than P5 supply are the same as in the simulation example in Section 3.2. The curves illustrate that increasing the P5 supply rate initially increases the synthesis of all the steroids; however, when the P5 supply rate reaches a certain level, further increasing this rate will firstly suppress the synthesis of A4, then DHEA, and lastly, 17OHP4. In contrast, increasing P5 supply rate resulted in a continual increase in P4 production."

    "...By taking into consideration competitive inhibition of the enzymes by substrates and products, the model shows that when the rate of P5 supply reaches a certain level, further increases in P5 supply rate will suppress the synthesis of A4, DHEA, and 17OH-P4, but not the synthesis of P4. Obviously, at low rates of P5 supply, the concentrations of all steroids are low and inhibition of P450c17 by substrates and 3-HSD by both substrates and products is negligible. Increasing the P5 supply rate progressively increases the synthesis of all the steroids to a point when the steroid concentrations reach levels that are sufficient to start inhibiting the activities ofthe both enzymes. The more reaction steps there are between the precursor substrate P5 and the end product, the stronger the effect of competitive inhibition is on its synthesis. Therefore, as the P5 supply rate increases, the suppression of A4 synthesis occurs first, following by that of DHEA and then 17OH-P4. In turn, this increasingly drives P5 flux down the 4 pathway towards the synthesis of P4. The increased flux down the 4 pathway is able to overcome the effect of the inhibition of 3-HSD by its catalytic substrates and products, allowing P4 synthesis to continue to rise with increasing P5 supply rate."
     
  2. @haidut I've heard of libido problems at higher pregnenolone doses but I've also heard ray say it's the impurities that cause problems. I wonder if the decreased androgens necessarily corresponds to decreased androgenic tone, for lack of a better term. maybe someone retains androgenic characteristics, even with the kncreased pregnenolone, then the side effects are from impurities. what do you think about that?
     
  3. Would there be a connection between androgens levels of an individual and the dose resulting in inhibition?
    Why would inhibiting androstenedione be ok? What is the equivalent in mg of such a dose?

    It actually makes me wonder if supplementing with the steroids at the very end of the chain is not as safe as precursors like dhea and pregnenolone when it comes to inhibition and positive effects , and if a combination of both precursors and end steroids could keep imbalances away while maximizing androgenic effects.
     
  4. I think the smoking gun really is the lack of inhibition of progesterone from any dose pregnenolone. This is consistent with the human studies showing oral high dose pregnenolone raised progesterone and allopregnanolone more than anything else. The anti-androgen effects of high levels of progesterone in males are well known. So, to me the more important message is that pregnenolone in higher doses probably has anti-androgenic effects (libido aside). The impurities and such are also important but the clinical trials with humans used pure pregnenolone. I am with Peat that the inhibition of specific enzymes could be due to impurities but the ability of pregnenolone to trigger negative feedback mechanisms on steroids downstream should not be ignored either.
    Bottom line - high dose pregnenolone is definitely pro-progesterone and potentially androgen synthesis inhibiting as well. That may not have a direct effect on serum androgens but the overall tone of the organism will probably shift towards progesterone and as such will be anti-androgenic.
     
  5. I don't think inhibiting androstenedione would be OK. That is the point of the study - beyond a certain rate of pregnenolone availability to the steroidogenic enzymes it inhibited androstenedione, DHEA and 17-OH progesterone synthesis, all of which are on the pathway to androgens such as T and DHT. Not sure how the supply rates from the study would convert to doses but basically at any point you probably don't want pregnenolone concentrations to exceed 1-2 uM/L, which means for optimal androgen synthesis, less than 10mg pregnenolone per dose may be optimal to avoid inhibition of androstenedione and DHEA.
    As to your final point - this is exactly what Selye said in the pregnenolone study I posted in the original Pansterone thread - i.e. using pregnenolone with an end-point steroid like T, cortisone, or estrogen allows for a much lower dose of the endpoint steroids to be used and get the same effects, while also likely protecting from the side effects. Check it out, it is good read.
     
  6. Slightly off topic but what would the equivalent dose of pregnenolone 100mg orally be to StressNon topically? I assume the routes of administration have different bioavailabilities.
     
  7. Ok so what do u think about 300mg/week i single doses? I ask because that'e what I'm taking.
     
  8. Do you think this could result in harm to males? I've experimented with 300mg of pregnenolone a day for months and felt quite good (30 year old male). Never noticed any libido inhibition. Don't want to hurt myself, though...
     
  9. It has not been tested on too many people but I have tested on myself. Taking the full 20mg dose StressNon topically in one sitting results in about the same pregnenolone concentration as an oral dose of about 200mg pregnenolone. The blood tests were done 1 and 8 hours post administration. Oral StressNon is similar to oral pregnenolone, so no advantage in taking it orally. But topically, StressNon seems to have about 10:1 effectiveness in raising blood pregnenolone levels. Both oral and topical pregnenolone will undergo a heavy conversion into other steroids. Both liver and skin are very active steroidogenic organs. But the liver likes to accumulate pregnenolone (as does the brain) so if you ingest even a hefty dose, very little of it will end up in the bloodstream as unchanged pregnenolone. The liver will convert maybe 60% to other steroids, keep another 30%-35% for itself and only let about 1%-2% unchanged pregnenolone in the blood. Topical pregnenolone , while also undergoing conversion does not metabolize as extensively unless you apply to a really large skin area. So, topical pregnenolone will deliver more unchanged pregnenolone to the blood, especially when the carrier is DMSO.
     
  10. That dose it probably not going to raise progesterone to the point of causing anti-androgenic effects. The physiological doses of pregnenolone are about 30mg - 50mg daily, so that's pretty much what you are taking with that single weekly dose.
     
  11. I don't think it will harm them, but it may cause some of progesterone's known side effects, which many people on the forum experienced with high dose pregnenolone and reported them. These included sleepiness, penis numbness, reduced libido, etc. If that dose makes you feel fine then by all means keep doing it. The study was meant to say that in some people the extensive pregnenolone conversion into progesterone and potential inhibition of androgen synthesis MAY result in symptoms consistent with high progesterone. So, something to be aware of when dosing pregnenolone and not just blindly gulp massive doses every day.
     
  12. Would that be 10 mg topical pregnenolone or oral or both? The two different ways of using it seem to yield quite different results (even outside of potency) .
    Thanks I'll check it out more thoroughly .
     
  13. so if I want to take pregnenolone orally with food, I should take no more than 10 mg? And can I do that five times a day for a total of 50mg without inhibiting DHEA as long as the doses are seperated reasonably? Lately, I have been taking 50mg per dose and I've noticed too much anti-androgen effect, although I felt good mentally. Sometimes I take 3 doses of 50mg.

    If I take 4 drops of pansterone on my balls, that would translate to 2.5mg pregnenolone but topically it would be effectively 25mg pregnenolone. Will that affect androgens negatively since it's above 10mg or would the DHEA in pansterone help mitigate that issue?
     
  14. I think taking 10mg pregnenolone 5-10 times daily orally will have very different effect than taking 50mg - 100mg in a single setting. It would be more balanced in smaller, frequent doses as it would go down both the progesterone and DHEA pathyways. In higher single doses it would be mostly a progesterone and allopregnanolone effect, so not very androgenic for males but maybe perfect for females. Topical pregnenolone (dissolved in DMSO) will to gown along 3 pathways - the 5-AR route (5a-DHP, allopregnanolone), the 3b-HSD route (DHEA) route, and remaining as unchanged pregnenolone. Exactly what percentage of the pregnenolone will go down each route is unknown, but it is known that topical pregnenolone feels more androgenic than oral (at the same dose) and seems to stimulate conversion of DHEA down the androgen pathways and away from estrogen. The scrotal application of pregnenolone/dhea/K is probably the best way for males to raise serum androgens and have most of pregnenolone and DHEA go down the androgen pathway. Oral pregnenolone will give more of a progesterone response, and topical (but not on scrotum) will give some androgenic, some progesterone and some unchanged pregnenolnoe response. Since the optimal way for everybody is different, I suggest experimenting with different doses and routes and sticking with the one that makes you feel best.
     
  15. As I explained in my response to Wagner above, the fate of pregnenolone metabolism depends on the route of delivery and the dose and nobody knows for sure how exactly it pans out. The information we do have is that if you want pregnenolone to have a more balance effect and convert down both the progesterone and DHEA pathways then using smaller doses more frequently would be better than taking the same total dose once. So, taking 10mg doses 5 times a day for a total of 50mg will have a more balanced effect than a single dose of 50mg. This is hinted to by some of the human studies, which found benefit from lower doses pregnenolone for specific conditions but not form the higher dose. The dose that was found to work was 30mg - 50mg daily. Higher doses may also work, but the higher the dose the more it is going to favor the progesterone pathway with all of its benefits and side effects. If depression in men is mostly driven by androgen deficiency (which is what happens in hypothyroidism) then smaller doses more regularly would be better. Higher dose pregnenolone, is probably very effective as an anti-cancer strategy and the studies I have seen (mostly in vitro) show that it is the most potent inhibitor of liver, kidney, and skin cancer available, and that effect is dose-dependent. So, you'd need 400mg+ pregnenolone in a single dose to see effects against liver cancer and melanoma, but lower doses are more for optimizing steroid pathways. Thus, it seems the lower doses would be optimizing hormone balance and preventing bad stuff from happening, while the higher doses would be for situations where crap has already hit the fan and males do not care about the progesterone dominance high dose pregnenolone may lead to. See below studies for lower vs. higher dose pregnenolone - i.e. the best effect was reported with doses of 30mg and 50gm daily, 200mg daily was ineffective, and positive effects again begin to emerge beyond 500mg daily.
    Pregnenolone and dehydroepiandrosterone as an adjunctive treatment in schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder: an 8-week, double-blind, randomiz... - PubMed - NCBI
    "...RESULTS: Compared with subjects who received placebo, those administered PREG-30 had significant reductions in positive symptom scores and extrapyramidal side effects (EPS) and improvement in attention and working memory performance, whereas subjects treated with PREG-200 did not differ on outcome variable scores for the study period. The general psychopathology severity and general functioning of patients receiving placebo and PREG-30 improved more than that of those subjects treated with DHEA, while EPS improved more in subjects treated with DHEA than in patients receiving placebo. Negative symptoms and akathisia were not significantly benefited by any treatment. The administration of PREG and DHEA was well tolerated."

    Adjunctive pregnenolone ameliorates the cognitive deficits in recent-onset schizophrenia. - PubMed - NCBI
    Add-on Pregnenolone with L-Theanine to Antipsychotic Therapy Relieves Negative and Anxiety Symptoms of Schizophrenia: An 8-week, randomized, double... - PubMed - NCBI
    Pregnenolone treatment reduces severity of negative symptoms in recent-onset schizophrenia: an 8-week, double-blind, randomized add-on two-center t... - PubMed - NCBI
    Proof-of-concept randomized controlled trial of pregnenolone in schizophrenia. - PubMed - NCBI
     
  16. Wow haidut, thanks a lot for your time explaining all these things. I think it's worth linking this thread in the StressNon product page or something like that ? Or just posting a comment on the StressNon thread pointing here so this thread doesn't get lost. I can make the post if you want. It's very important to keep in mind all these things.
     
  17. Yes, please make the post. I will try to edit the original post as well, but it helps when others mention it in the actual thread as most people go directly to the last post and start from there.
     
  18. As Makrovsky said, thanks a lot for the thorough explanation.

    From what I remember they tried intranasal pregnenolone on mice and a greater percentage of it reached the brain (in terms of ratio ) compared to intravenous administration, perhaps this would be a way to treat certain conditions while minimizing side effects.

    Brain distribution and behavioral effects of progesterone and pregnenolone after intranasal or intravenous administration

    Abstract
    Neurosteroids hold great promise for the treatment of diseases of the central nervous system (CNS). We compared the uptake by 11 brain regions and appearance in blood of tritium-labeled pregnenolone and progesterone after intranasal and intravenous (IV) injection. Both neurosteroids appeared in blood and brain after either method of administration, but with important differences in uptake. Bioavailability based on appearance in arterial serum showed that about 23% and 14% of the intranasal administered doses of pregnenolone and progesterone, respectively, entered the blood. Brain levels were about two fold lower after intranasal administration for the two neurosteroids. With intranasal administration, brain levels of the two steroids did not vary over time (2–120 min), whereas brain levels were higher early (10 min or less) after i.v. administration. With i.v. administration, uptake by brain regions did not vary, whereas the olfactory bulb, hippocampus, and hypothalamus had high uptake rates after intranasal administration. Intranasal administration of prenenolone improved memory, whereas progesterone decreased anxiety, thus demonstrating that therapeutic levels of neurosteroids can be delivered to the brain by intranasal administration. The neurosteroids were rapidly degraded after i.v. or intranasal delivery, but pregnenolone was more resistant to degradation in brain after intranasal administration and in serum after i.v. administration. These results show that either the i.v. or intranasal routes of administration can deliver neurosteroids to blood and brain, but that the two routes have significant differences with intranasal administration favoring some brain regions.
     
  19. OMG. Really ? I never thought about using pregnenolone intranasally.

    @haidut do you think is there any big risk on snorting a line of pregnenolone powder ? I'm 100% serious. I have some Healthnatura pure preg powder here and I'm willing to use it myself as a resus monkey for the sake of science... Do you think it's dangerous ? After all, the olfactory bulb is part of the brain, so anything going there would bypass the BBB protective mechanisms, if I'm not wrong.
     
  20. :smokingcrack
     
  21. Well, that approach has been tried before in humans so it should work. I am just not sure of the proper dose and what side effects it can cause. I know some people experience nose bleeds from oral pregnenolone so something to watch out for. Also, given that the i.v. route was better than intranasal based on the study, applying a bit of StressNon along a bigger vein of your arm should achieve the same. Just pick one of the visible veins under the skin, or even better would be a bulging vein of length at least 2in. Apply the SressNon on it and voilla, you have a decent surrogate for IV administration without the risks of snorting stuff :): And the snorting can get you arrested, at least in the US, even if you snort legal stuff.
     
  22. Thanks haidut!! I'm not in the US. I would try both and let you know if I feel something different than oral/topical route.

    @Regina don't react like that... It's for science :):
     
  23. :seenoevil::hearnoevil::speaknoevil:
     
  24. @haidut

    After dropping my pregnenolone dosage from 100-150 mg to just 30 mg (3 mg topical applied w/ DMSO to the testes), I've noticed significant more androgenecity than the larger dose.

    I didn't even read your post in the middle of this thread with the 30-50 mg recommendation, and that's just personal experience, so it matches up!

    I've also added progesterone, which seems to have a very potent androgenic effect at low doses, as you've mentioned.

    Maybe next an "Optimal Dose of Progesterone for Estrogen Without Androgen Antagonism."
     
  25. That's great feedback and great idea too! Let me see what I can dig up on progesterone supplementation and its effects on androgens and I will make a separate post.
     
  26. Wow haidut very extremely helpful and thorough answers to my questions/concerns about pregnenolone. Can't thank you enough :) :)

    Does anybody know the Brazilian man on the forum who was asking about pregnenolone a lot? He previously had his daughter/granddaughter with him as a profile picture. I am pretty sure those responses from haidut would help him immensely. @Blossom can you link his name here if you know who I am talking? Thanks
     
  27. Sure, I believe you are thinking of @bzmazu.
    ETA Although I just checked and he lives in Belize.
     
  28. yeah thanks him and @gilson dantas could benefit from those answers :)
     
  29. I was just thinking the same thing!
     
  30. Are you still using pansterone?
     
  31. Yes; I apply 2 drops on my balls three times per day for a total of 6 drops (3 mg DHEA and 3 mg pregnenolone).
     
  32. @haidut

    Absolutely; thanks for the link. I just tried 0.65 progesterone (Progestene) in DMSO applied to the testes, as I got my usual mid-afternoon anxiety, and the anxiety went away, as did any sexual angst (urge to engage in sex).

    I e-mailed Ray, and he said he thought the DMSO was responsible for the effect, as the dosage of progesterone is too low, but I haven't experienced the same with just a drop of DMSO, so it's probably the progesterone.
     
  33. Did you send the study of dmso potentiating steroids effects to Ray?
     
  34. Wow! Thanks haidut!!!!

    The thing is ... yes, a certain dose of pregnenolone can generate an allopregnenolone ammount that falls in the middle of the U shape, thus being counterproductive. BUT... PREG will convert also to other androgens and progesterone and stop there, right? The androgens and progesterone some of them have sedative/anaesthesic effects (I don't know if it's via the GABA system) so it ends up balanced? That might explain why some people no matter the dose of pregnenolone they take, they don't experience any U shape like reactions. I'm hypothesizing haidut, don't know really.

    But yes, definitely, something to keep in mind.

    It's not like 5a-DHP which can only be converted to Allopreg. With 5a-DHP it would be much easier to see how this U shape works I guess.

    I for sure experiment diverse reactions, depending on the dose, which I never happen to think to in terms of a U-shaped action of allopreg in the GABAa receptor. I'll keep it in mind from now and see if it correlates well.
     
  35. Hey Dave,

    So you are assuming DMSO potentiation of 10x ?
     
  36. My experiences and the ones of a few other people (I often experiment with as a group) seem to fit the U shaped curve rather well. Pregnenolone in doses of 30mg - 50mg daily is about as androgenic as it is progestogenic. Taking 100mg for a few days is more or less the same but if you keep it for a week it starts to build up enough progesterone to skew things towards progesterone. Anything over 100mg (200mg+ daily) heavily favors the progesterone and allopregnanolone route. Now, the allopregnanolone is a precursor to DHT/androsterone, but the progesterone synthesis seems to dominate so the overall effect of higher dose pregnenolone is very similar to taking pure progesterone.
    Of course, everybody is different. Given the propensity of pregnenolone to convert into whatever is deficient in that person, I can see it having androgenic effects even in higher doses if that person is really lacking androgens. The animal studies show that pregnenolone favors the androgen route when the male animals are castrated, and helps maintain normal fertility even in the absence of gonads. In non-castrated male animals it does not have this effect. So, again, pregnenolone helps balance the system by correcting deficiencies. But I think it is easier to balance the system with lower dose over longer period since it does not saturate the enzymes and thus potentially trigger negative feedback systems. Up to 50mg pregnenolone daily is considered a physiological dose and should not skew things too much.
     
  37. @haidut

    Is it worth posting the biphasic actions blog you mentioned in the 5a-DHP ? I can do that.

    It's kind of...leaving a track of bread crumbles in case anyone experiences weird results.
     
  38. Cool! Thanks.
     
  39. Yeah, for simplicity; also, if it's applied to the testes it will be more potent, hence the multiplier of ten.
     
  40. Thank you @Blossom!! Very interesting!!
     
  41. @goodandevil: How did you arrive at dose of 300mg x 1/week (per Peat's anecdotal findings)? It's rather confusing, to say the least, after reading this thread, whether best to dose throughout the day, once per week, or cyclic, say 3 weeks on and 1 week off to guard against negative feedback loop.

    Then-- how much? And I do believe the dosage levels may not be optimally the same between needs of male and female. I'm female, and I'm taking 100mg/day, in one capsule, and feel pretty good, sleeping better, overall better mood and energy.

    Peat has said pregnenolone recyles through the intestine throughout the week following a single dose. What then, does continued daily use mean? How much really gets used out of a 100mg capsule? I don't know if it would be similar to oral progesterone, but I believe that 100mg oral progesterone only yields about 20mg after liver processing, etc.
    :???:
     
  42. @haidut: I'm a little confused on your comment-- if a single 300mg dose wouldn't cause anti-androgenic effects, then why do you suggest the need to split a 50mg dose throughout the day?
     
  43. Where did you see me recommending splitting 50mg dose? I said a daily dose of 30mg - 50mg was found effective in a few human studies while the higher doses was not. The difference with the 300mg dose is that it is taken only once weekly, so by the second day it has already metabolized into downstream hormones. Taking it on a daily basis though (or even 100mg on a daily basis) will start to manifest the progesterone effect. See this.
    Optimal Dose Of Pregnenolone For Androgen Synthesis
     
  44. It's how I read your posts to @Wagner83, post #14, and to @milk_lover, post #15.
     
  45. Oh, my point in these is that the smaller the specific dose of pregnenolone the higher the chance that it will convert down both pathways (progesterone and DHEA) than just progesterone. Some people will probably do fine on 30mg - 50mg single dose. Others will need the splitting to get more of an androgenic effects. If you are also taking DHEA then I would split whatever total daily dose of pregnenolone you plan on taking into as many doses as the DHEA. So, if you are taking 5mg DHEA x 3 daily and also plan on taking 30mg pregnenolone daily, I would split that pregnenolone dose so that each steroid dose is 10mg pregnenolone + 5mg DHEA, taken three times daily.
    Pregnenolone seems to be quite powerful. An older study from the 1950s found that even 1mg dose before bed improved sleep quality drastically.
     
  46. Hey classical lady,

    Well ray said he tested it from the semtex factory in 80s and used massive quantities, 5 grams a day, i think, for a year, and had zero side effects. Zero with a capital Z is what he told me. While it's possible that pregnenolone encourages a different hormonal profile at high vs low doses, for men i dont believe that corresponds to decreased androgenic charscteristics, and for women, the kncreased progesterone is nothing to worry about and can only je said to be good. my primary concern would be obtaining clean pr3gnenolone. anyways i have faith in what ray says i think the more, the better. He's a careful man and i believe he tested it quite extensively. anyways, yeah, that's the dose ray recommended.
     
  47. I agree with you-- Peat is quite cautious. I assume you are still cycling the one dose weekly @300mg? For how long, and how are you feeling balance-wise? I'm interested in having my husband do the once-weekly dose @300mg for sake of ease as he's not a pill guy. He's pushing age 60-- from what you've read would older people require a greater dosage than, say, someone in their 30s to 40s?

    Do you complement with any DHEA? I know Peat has done a real turn-around with recommending DHEA given studies showing negative effects over time. I would hope that pregnenolone would be sufficient to cover the bases for the downstream hormones, eliminating the need to supplement them individually.

    Thank you for getting back to me on this-
     
  48. Oh yeah i still take 300 once weekly. might do more but it's expensive maybe we neee to make a buyer's club on here to get the high-quality pregnenolone more cheaply. anyways ray says to take the dhea with fat i mix 5mg at a time with coconut oil. if dhea feels good, it is good. i feel great at 300mg. i feel experimentatio is vital and i would encourage your husband to experiment with higher doses so long as the pregnenolone is clean. i trust ray.
     
  49. I think what a man wants to achieve as his personal state of health (body, mind, emotions) , what he perceives as doing great may not be the same for all . For example sexuality could be perceived differently in Peat's eyes from the eyes of a young lad raised watching porn and partying, physical health could be perceived differently between Peat and a bodybuilder.
     
  50. Ha! What an understatement.
     
  51. Does someone know how 100mg pregnenolone would
    Are you taking a bulk powder, or capsules/tablets? It's hard to find a ready-made supplement without some kind of filler, although there is one I've bought before, it just doesn't come in higher doses, so it's a little pricey for higher dosing. Good point on purity. Maybe if that issue is eliminated, a lower dose potentially would yield better results than a higher dose with fillers or irritants (didn't someone suggest this earlier?).

    I always like to go back and read this article as a reference point: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/three-hormones.shtml

    Thanks again for your input and suggestions!
     
  52. I'm throwing in a related question: If you're taking it orally, is there a benefit in using micronized over non-micronized pregnenolone? I couldn't seem to find anything on the forum addressing this issue. If anyone has information on this, I would appreciate knowing.
     
  53. Hey i use healthnatura for pregnenolone. they're overpriced and somewhat disrepuable, take forever to ship, bjt their pregnenolone is clean. for dhea i use bulk supplements on amazon. i think ray said the micronized is just a gimmick. i think there's another ean source of pregnenolone, it might be on dan's toxinless.org website.
     
  54. Overpriced? I see its products generally good priced, clean and very high quality. 5gr pregnenolone should last a year.
     
  55. What I thought as well, a gimmick. On the DHEA, you mention 5mg portions, do you also take 1 weekly dose of DHEA with your pregnenolone?
     
  56. fwiw: Have you read this article on Peat's thoughts regarding DHEA? Looks like the article was last updated 2006, so I'm not sure if his position on DHEA has changed since:

    Pregnenolone - A Fruit Of Cholesterol (see WARNING ON DHEA)
     
  57. They're well priced for a monopoly. he has good pregnenolone, im thankful for thayt, but his products are expensive and his shipping is very slow. Like many marketers, he makes an advertisement out of these deficiencies. 5grMs at 300 mgs/week would be four months and that's a low dose of pregnenolone. maybe @Dan Wich can find a cheaper, clean version. i've heard another brand name being bandied about.
     
  58. That's an interesting article! thanks for this little gem, interesting to hear his personal victories. yeah i think he's cautious because he doesn't want people to sprinkle dhea on tbeir food just because he said it's good. presuming adequate thyroid function, going by temperature and pulse, i would definitely have your huband try it at 5mgs in coconut oil or mct. having it in oil forces it to through a different metabolic route, i thinm through hepatocytes but correct me if im wrong @haidut. I would definitely NOT do a weekly dose of dhea, just small amounts frequently.
     
  59. Personally I don't mind for the slower shipping... they offer a quality rarely seen on most mainstream supplement markets and and priced accordly in my opinion, for me that's the most important. For cheap common stuff there's plenty of sites.

    As for the preg well, for me 20mg 6x/week and taking some break here and then, is more than enough.
     
  60. Yes, shipping is extremely slow they even messed up my order twice along with credit card issues. He ended up calling me and apologized and was cool about it just the shipping time and processing time is ridiculous. Took weeks for the product to ship.
     
  61. Great, thanks for the tips on taking DHEA. I'll consider adding that to his regimen.
     
  62. In defense of Heathnatura, I have had no problems with payments, nor shipping - usually takes around 10 days or so (in Oz). I have used Pregnenolone, Vit K and Progesterone and all have been good clean products.
     
  63. Maybe we can find a cheaper source, or better yet a buyer's club. a few people on here have asked for that from time to time maybe we should make it happen. @haidut probably gets clean pregnenolone in bulk maybe he should offer it just so people can afford to get more clean pregnenolone. It would just be cool if more people could afford to use decent preparations of this hormone ray loves so much.
     
  64. Yes, small daily doses of DHEA are the way to go. Dissolved in oil or taken with some butter/MCT/olive oil. Large doses have direct estrogenic effects and preferentially convert to estrone as well. Smaller doses favor the DHT pathway.
     
  65. Absolutely. +1 for this comment.
     
  66. The only one I've heard of (at least of those that seem to respond to questions) is Peter at Vitaspace who can do bulk orders. I haven't looked into his stuff, but I think @charlie was happy with one of his products. And I think he (or someone else?) was able to get some analysis on the product by placing an order.

    It looks like it's ~40% cheaper than Health Natura if you're willing to get 100g. Although I remember there being a Health Natura coupon that cut the cost when last I ordered.

    For what it's worth I've always gotten my Health Natura orders quickly. Maybe not Haidut-fast (a man who obviously lives inside a post office), but shipped within a couple days.

    Is it SmartPowders? It's been a few years, but I think I had trouble getting much info from them.
     
  67. Or has an office building attached to a post office :) Either way, I take it as a high compliment! Thanks.
     
  68. Ooh don't think it's smart powders; unfortunately i cant remember the name. The vitaspace link is very good, especially with the COA. I'll order from them next time, perhaps we can even form a buyer's club to get this pregnenolone to more people. Thanks for the info and the chuckle dan
     

  69. Now that's interesting @DaveFoster... quite interesting indeed.

    You had stated before that you dropped your preg dosage drom 100-150 down to 30mg- or "3mg/dmso". Safe to assume this is your recognition of the 10x potency effect that dmso has as a carrier of steroids.

    Therefore, I can only but assume, you are aware that 3mg of dhea should be around 30mg oral. The physiological dose is about 10-15mg!! You are a crazed maniac to use such heavy dosages of that substance! A madman I say! :rotatinglight: :troll:

    Also did you mean you took 3mg preg/dmso on top of pansterone, so 6mg preg/dmso daily? Or just the 3mg in your pannysterry?

    Personally I cant handle more than a single drop of pansterone at a time, due to the dhea... :clown:
     
  70. I think the preferential conversion of DHEA into androgens via topical application raises the ceiling above 15 mg, not to mention any additional effect from applying directly on the testes (Leydig cells.)

    Also, it's not necessarily 10x potentiation, but that's the most conservative estimate.
     
  71. I see now, thanks for your explanation. Will keep for my records.

    So you jsut take pansterone no additional pregnenlone??
     
  72. I was taking 100 mg pregnenolone along with Pansterone, but it's hardly necessary, especially if you're under 50.

    Ray thinks that 100 mg pregnenolone/week is enough, so 30 mg/day from Pansterone should be more than enough.
     
  73. Under typical cirumstance yeah, you don't need much pregnenlone and I wouldnt take more than 20-30mg daily long term because of the depersonalization effect, but When you are facing post finasteride syndrome I think 100mg or more daily is smart because finasteride has shown to decrease pregnenlone synthesis.
     
  74. As far as dosing, has anyone had success taking preg or specifically stressnon just once a day? Say 5 drops to the testes with a Peatarian breakfast? I would prefer to only use in the morning.
     
  75. To add an anecdote:

    The phenomenon of a numb penis from large doses of pregnenolone depends on the context of its administration; in a state of sufficient stress, a high dose of pregnenolone will not produce these effects, but in a state devoid of HPA activation (and without the accompanying upregulated expression of sympathetic hormones), the anesthetizing of the male organ will occur.

    The frequency of dosing depends on your activity. If you exercise, it would be wise to take a dose after the exercise session unless a sufficiently large dose is taken prior to exercising.
     
  76. I would be down for that.

    Also, super high doses worked extremely well for me. Wouldn't just adding in some DHEA or K2, androsterone etc. negate the strong progesterone effects that high dose preg can cause anyways, if the side effects did become anti androgenic for the person? My skin glows/looks better at higher doses compared to lower doses of preg, another reason why I like higher doses.
     
  77. @haidut I've taken anywhere between 5 to 10mg of StressNon topically on my scrotum a few times but never noticed anything. I see several people mentioning that they notice results within an hour or 2. Do I need to apply for several days to get results?
     
  78. I think Pansterone is more effective when used on the scrotum for raising androgens. I would try that instead.
     
  79. Yesterday I took 7mg of pregnenolone orally at night and I slept like a baby for 9 straight hours without headache or anything after waking up even though I am fasting now and I can't eat or drink anything! I think less than 10mg pregnenolone for men is the magic dose, as @haidut suggested!
     
  80. Which pregnenolone supplement do you take? Orally, topically? I'd expect 7 mg in dmso topically to have different effects compared to pregnenolone in powder form.
     
  81. orally powder form. It's from a company called NRM or something, but they changed their ingredients now. It used to be rice flour.
     
  82. Only high dose topical Pregnanlone has an effect an me and that is brain fog. No other effects. And no effect whatsoever from oral or low dose topical.
     
  83. Used 3 drops of Stressnon (pregnenolone) in the evening / late afternoon yesterday with food after a hard weight lifting workout.

    I still have the old version (dissolved in DMSO), so 3 drops topical would compare to a 25mg oral dose (with stressnon 24 drops are 20 mg = 200 mg oral dose).

    Felt very calm, relaxed, but also kind of tired. libido went up though. Mind definitely calms down, but was sharp on tasks.

    I can´t say if it had any effect on muscles (recovery), as there is no different feeling this morning, than on other days after workout day.
     
  84. So what time is best to use stressnon?

    I guess evening?
     
  85. I still like Pregnenalone, but I’m now observing what effects oral low doses elicit in me consistently. I find it’s better to use it at night, it will make me sleepy, and if I stay up, Brain fogged.
     
  86. Hey, can you share that study? I couldn't find it on the forum.
     
  87. Search for "schizophrenia allopregnanolone" and for "pregnenolone loneliness".
     
  88. I found two threads but can't find the study where pregnenolone killed the sex drive of patients...
     
  89. Yeah, I could see that happening, but likely dose dependent, via Progesterone.
     
  90. Oh, my post was misleading I guess. Sorry about that. The human studies talked about conversion of pregnenolone into progesterone and allopregnanolone, which are known to lower sex drive (at least males). The part about lowered libido was direct reports from people taking higher doses pregnenolone. My own experience matches that - doses under 30mg seem to stimulate libido while higher doses seem to lower it even though higher doses seem to have a stronger anti-depressant effect.
    Also, I posted a few studies showing concentrations up to 2uM/L pregnenolone stimulated androgen synthesis while higher concentrations inhibited it and went mostly down the progesterone pathway. The latter portion matches most clinical experience - i.e. high doe pregnenolone is progestagenic and can even maintain pregnancy in very high doses (but only for a short time).
     
  91. 10mg (or under) of pregnenolone powder is such a physically tiny amount. I feel so funny measuring it and taking it lol.
     
  92. I like the idea of being able to get away with less. Maybe there is no truth to my perspective, but my thought is the less you have to interrupt/add to the body's hormonal system, the better. Haidut even suggests that 1mg preg before bed is enough to help with sleep.
     
  93. This is true. It's just amazing to me that such a small amount of powder does something. When I take powders it is usually glycine, taurine, bcaas, etc and I'm taking grams of the stuff. I just feel like a little ant taking such a smalll amount of something. Measuring it is comical as well.
     
  94. Haha, I know what you mean. I have a scale that can measure to the 100ths (.01g), but now I could use one that will measure to the 1000ths (.001g), for small powder doses.
     
  95. Did u try snortin? I scared to try!