Optimal Amount Of Muscle Mass

Luckytype

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You’re saying 5x3 wont do anything but 7x2 (or is it 7x3?) will make a difference? I don’t understand, and I would like to.

I do chest and shoulders in Wednesday:

Bench press: 7 sets in total, starting with really heavy load for about 6 reps, then gradually lowering weight and upping reps to 11 to 15 reps.

Military press: 6 sets, same premise, as low as 6 reps at first to 12 reps in the end.

Cable cross over: 5-6 sets, around 10-12 reps each.

Standing dumbel fly: 5 sets, about 12 reps each, heavier at first.

Generally speaking i lift very heavy, to failure. I take 1.5 minutes breaks, about 3 minutes between the excercises.

The whole thing take about 90 minutes.

On sunday its biceps, triceps, and back. Similar number of sets...curls, dips, etc.

Im very lean, minimal progess, although my arms look pretty pumped up afterwards.

I’m open to suggestions and willing to amend. I won’t work out more often though.

Heres the deal: you have to take his recommendations as a starter of sorts but its absolutely up to you to figure out what works for you.

If youre not making ANY results(im saying worst case even 1 rep after a few months) then modify.

There are a million programs that work for a million people...thats the beauty of our bodies. But there are also millions of programs that dont do ***t.

The only program that makes progress for me is something I came up with myself. The recommendations, all the starter pack stuff just doesnt work for me.

Its your body, you have to train instinctively.

People would ask how i made progress on some things, i give them the answer starting with "the only thing that worked for me was " and they immediately came back with "holy ***t i cant do that" - well no kidding its my body, not yours, enjoy your workout(and that lack of progress).

Same rules as the forum apply to workouts: perceive, think, act.
 

Steene

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You’re saying 5x3 wont do anything but 7x2 (or is it 7x3?) will make a difference? I don’t understand, and I would like to.

I do chest and shoulders in Wednesday:

Bench press: 7 sets in total, starting with really heavy load for about 6 reps, then gradually lowering weight and upping reps to 11 to 15 reps.

Military press: 6 sets, same premise, as low as 6 reps at first to 12 reps in the end.

Cable cross over: 5-6 sets, around 10-12 reps each.

Standing dumbel fly: 5 sets, about 12 reps each, heavier at first.

Generally speaking i lift very heavy, to failure. I take 1.5 minutes breaks, about 3 minutes between the excercises.

The whole thing take about 90 minutes.

On sunday its biceps, triceps, and back. Similar number of sets...curls, dips, etc.

Im very lean, minimal progess, although my arms look pretty pumped up afterwards.

I’m open to suggestions and willing to amend. I won’t work out more often though.

I think you know better how certain muscles of your body respond to a specific rep range. Lets say if you build strength relatively easy with your bench press (5x3) without cheating, I would recommend you a 7-9 rep range. Why? Because your chest muscles are probably dominant in fast twitching muscle fibres an respond better in the mid range repetition wise. If it is the way around and your endurance is higher but your maximal output is lower then go for the pump. I can not recommend to train just for the pump because I never experienced significant gains because of it, but thats just my opinion.
 

Hans

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Stan Efferding is an excellent resource for learning about training and performance nutrition. Hes a Peat disciple, so hes awesome
Sure, if you're on heaps of steroids then maybe his advise will be helpful. But no, he's not a Peat disciple, he just does what most other top bodybuilders do and it just so happens to be somewhat in line with what Peat says. You can't listen to someone like that and expect to get the results they promise. Their knowledge about nutrition is only to amplify the results they get from the steroids they use, not to get you as healthy or big as possible naturally.
 

YourUniverse

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Sure, if you're on heaps of steroids then maybe his advise will be helpful. But no, he's not a Peat disciple, he just does what most other top bodybuilders do and it just so happens to be somewhat in line with what Peat says. You can't listen to someone like that and expect to get the results they promise. Their knowledge about nutrition is only to amplify the results they get from the steroids they use, not to get you as healthy or big as possible naturally.
What? No. He's very open that sleep, training, nutrition, and hormones are the pillars. And yes, he is a peat disciple - not only has he referenced Dr. Ray Peat on podcasts before, but his diet, "the vertical diet", is literally milk, carrots, oranges and orange juice, avoiding green veggies and other intestinal irritants, and of course steak and white rice. He avoids eccentric movements, at least during rehab. Its Peat tailored to strength performance.

As for those looking to build mass naturally, high frequency worked best for me, and mostly compound exercises, covering all the bases. With that said, I believe you look like how you train (like "you are what you eat"), and I clued in a couple years ago that if all you train are squat-bench-deadlift - although you will end up growing, for sure - you are likely to end up with really muscular legs, fairly muscular chest and traps, and fairly lacking in shoulders and arms. So I made sure to add an extra exercise to the back of each workout, keeping the frequency high, but thats just my anecdote. Something like M-W-F, with a push, a pull, and a squat variant with an extra arm or shoulder isolation, should take care of the training stimulus needed to grow. May want to alternate month-long periods of heavy lifting, like 4x6 or 5x5, with moderate bodybuilding, like 4x10-12. The best results I ever got were from a M-W-F of roughly 4x6, which came after years of experimenting with bodybuilder splits that ultimately werent as good for me! From there, its up to sleep, nutrition, and depending on your goals and progress, perhaps hormones.
 
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Hans

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What? No. He's very open that sleep, training, nutrition, and hormones are the pillars. And yes, he is a peat disciple - not only has he referenced Dr. Ray Peat on podcasts before, but his diet, "the vertical diet", is literally milk, carrots, oranges and orange juice, avoiding green veggies and other intestinal irritants, and of course steak and white rice. He avoids eccentric movements, at least during rehab. Its Peat tailored to strength performance.
Sorry for my hasty reply above. To be honest I have not looked at a lot of his videos. I understand you can benefit from his videos then. It's just that people look at guys like him and think, "wow, I just have to eat and train like him and then I'll be big and strong too", while back at the ranch his kind of gains wouldn't be possible without his steroids. But at least he is honest about his steroid use. Even if you optimize your own steroid production naturally, you still would not get nearly his kind of results.
 

YourUniverse

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Sorry for my hasty reply above. To be honest I have not looked at a lot of his videos. I understand you can benefit from his videos then. It's just that people look at guys like him and think, "wow, I just have to eat and train like him and then I'll be big and strong too", while back at the ranch his kind of gains wouldn't be possible without his steroids. But at least he is honest about his steroid use. Even if you optimize your own steroid production naturally, you still would not get nearly his kind of results.
I agree man, its really common for people to see a roided-up behemoth and get swindled into buying their protein powder to look like them
 

Steene

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What? No. He's very open that sleep, training, nutrition, and hormones are the pillars. And yes, he is a peat disciple - not only has he referenced Dr. Ray Peat on podcasts before, but his diet, "the vertical diet", is literally milk, carrots, oranges and orange juice, avoiding green veggies and other intestinal irritants, and of course steak and white rice. He avoids eccentric movements, at least during rehab. Its Peat tailored to strength performance.

As for those looking to build mass naturally, high frequency worked best for me, and mostly compound exercises, covering all the bases. With that said, I believe you look like how you train (like "you are what you eat"), and I clued in a couple years ago that if all you train are squat-bench-deadlift - although you will end up growing, for sure - you are likely to end up with really muscular legs, fairly muscular chest and traps, and fairly lacking in shoulders and arms. So I made sure to add an extra exercise to the back of each workout, keeping the frequency high, but thats just my anecdote. Something like M-W-F, with a push, a pull, and a squat variant with an extra arm or shoulder isolation, should take care of the training stimulus needed to grow. May want to alternate month-long periods of heavy lifting, like 4x6 or 5x5, with moderate bodybuilding, like 4x10-12. The best results I ever got were from a M-W-F of roughly 4x6, which came after years of experimenting with bodybuilder splits that ultimately werent as good for me! From there, its up to sleep, nutrition, and depending on your goals and progress, perhaps hormones.

The thing with lacking shoulder development is often because of a poor hormonal profile. If there is a muscle which mirrors an anabolic hormonal profile then thats your delts. Most people I see training have underdeveloped shoulder muscles. Massive upper body with relatively little shoulders.
 

YourUniverse

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The thing with lacking shoulder development is often because of a poor hormonal profile. If there is a muscle which mirrors an anabolic hormonal profile then thats your delts. Most people I see training have underdeveloped shoulder muscles. Massive upper body with relatively little shoulders.
I think youre right. Rear delts and traps have more androgen receptors, or so I read years ago. One of the easiest ways to guess if someone takes steroids is if they have very well-developed rear delts, creating a very capped shoulder.

With that said, entertain this picture of Francis Ngannou (UFC heavyweight). This picture is not 3D so we cant see a side profile, but this is an example of what I think happens from a long term squat-bench-deadlift workout application, with big traps, big chest, but relatively speaking, under-developed shoulders. Im not saying this is what Mr. Ngannou used to develop his body, nor that he has small arms or shoulders, nor that he is natural. What I am saying is I think this is what tends to happen to naturals who focus on squat-bench-deadlift, without proper attention to the secondary muscles like shoulders and arms. I consider Francis to be very chest and trap dominant (which, in earnest, isnt a bad "problem" to have):
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MHdwl2mTiQM/maxresdefault.jpg
 

Hans

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When I focused a lot on squat, bench, deadlift, OHP, etc...mostly compound movements, I had big traps but underdeveloped delt. And I was doing isolation movements for it like lateral raises, face pulls etc... but mainly long rests, 2-3 minutes. Then I switched to keto and changed my training (not focusing on compounds as I used to), and my delts started popping out and developing much better, along with all my other muscles. Also on keto my water retention disappeared and I lost no strength and actually made gains like I never had. Anyway, I'm trying to say that I don't think the conventional compounds are what really builds a natural bodybuilder, well for me it didn't. I still do compounds, but not the regular three. It builds size yes, but then you just look bulky with major lacking points. Lacking muscles, like delts, could be mainly due to low androgens, but also due to training delts wrongly.
 

YourUniverse

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When I focused a lot on squat, bench, deadlift, OHP, etc...mostly compound movements, I had big traps but underdeveloped delt. And I was doing isolation movements for it like lateral raises, face pulls etc... but mainly long rests, 2-3 minutes. Then I switched to keto and changed my training (not focusing on compounds as I used to), and my delts started popping out and developing much better, along with all my other muscles. Also on keto my water retention disappeared and I lost no strength and actually made gains like I never had. Anyway, I'm trying to say that I don't think the conventional compounds are what really builds a natural bodybuilder, well for me it didn't. I still do compounds, but not the regular three. It builds size yes, but then you just look bulky with major lacking points. Lacking muscles, like delts, could be mainly due to low androgens, but also due to training delts wrongly.
What training made your delts start to pop? What general frequency, exercises, sets and reps did you change to get better progress? I think just about every guy on earth is looking for wider shoulders, bigger traps, and less body fat
 

Steene

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OHP dumbbell with little to no decline so you press less with your front delts, which can be achieved by having a bench for shoulder presses (no clue how it's called) or by doing them without leaning and by doing the full range of motion. Worst part about being natural is that you are forced to go heavy, even with lateral raises and I think you know how messy it can be doing heavy lateral raises, but as long as you can target your muscles, who cares.
 

Hans

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What training made your delts start to pop? What general frequency, exercises, sets and reps did you change to get better progress? I think just about every guy on earth is looking for wider shoulders, bigger traps, and less body fat
Well I actually still did the same exercises: DB upright row, lateral raises, reverse flies, sometimes DB shoulder press (leaning as forwards as possible), etc... I just actually decreased the weight and started really focusing on my form, motion, mind to muscle connection, contraction etc... I wanted to feel that perfect contraction throughout the whole movement, get that burn, hold at the top. Once I did that I was unable to go heavy like I used to because now the targeted muscles were actually doing a lot more of the work than they use to.
If I'm unsatisfied with the effect of an exercise, I slow down the movement to 2 seconds up, 2 seconds squeeze at the top and 2 seconds down again. Sometimes longer, just to get that mind to muscle connection going. I'd also flex and look at my delts in the mirror and look at where it was lacking, then I'd pick an exercise to hit exactly that part first in the workout. Then I'd do it so intense that it burns like hell exactly where I want it to grow. But the important part is to never take it to cheating, shaking or bad form etc. Perfect form, perfect mind to muscle connection, perfect contraction and you get perfect growth.
I think this is a major lacking aspect in gym goers of today. If you look around, everyone is just busting a set, talking, being distracted, resting too long, training heavy with bad form just to impress other, etc...
Of coarse I also changed my workout intensity, frequency etc, but I think this was one of the major things that got it going for me.
Also a good article to check out on this subject: The 3 most powerful tools to build and shape your physique
 
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Hans

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Worst part about being natural is that you are forced to go heavy
I used to think so too, but it's not true. Train heavy yes, but in a way like I described above. So it's not the same kind of heavy.
 

Luckytype

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The only way I was able to get my delts to grow was truly extreme volume multiple days a week and doing tons of multi angle movements chasing the pump and mind muscle connection THEN doing heavy db pressing at the end. My gym at the time was only up to 120s so handling the 80-100lb dbs at the end was actually perfect. Im not made for barbell pressing so to be honest i dont know if I could have loaded myself heavy enough at the if I pressed at the beginning.

Blood volume, then extreme load under stretch.

But after maybe 4-6 months of that crazy amount of volume, they responded and became pretty standout for me proportionally. But holy fk did I literally have to beat the fk out of them at first.

Since doing that, even after backing off of gym, my mind muscle connection with them is still very good, eapecially compared to what it was.
 

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The only way I was able to get my delts to grow was truly extreme volume multiple days a week and doing tons of multi angle movements chasing the pump and mind muscle connection THEN doing heavy db pressing at the end. My gym at the time was only up to 120s so handling the 80-100lb dbs at the end was actually perfect. Im not made for barbell pressing so to be honest i dont know if I could have loaded myself heavy enough at the if I pressed at the beginning.

Blood volume, then extreme load under stretch.

But after maybe 4-6 months of that crazy amount of volume, they responded and became pretty standout for me proportionally. But holy fk did I literally have to beat the fk out of them at first.

Since doing that, even after backing off of gym, my mind muscle connection with them is still very good, eapecially compared to what it was.
You and Stan Efferding are both advocates of going for walks, he recommends 3 brisk 10-minute walks throughout the day, and you recommended something similar to me in a PM. I can only assume you and Stan share similar diet ideas if you post on the Ray Peat forum.

So let me ask you, what do you think about training 2-a-days? Stan recommends 2 30-minute workouts in a day, instead of 1 60-minute workout, and I like the idea of dedicating an entire, albeit small, workout to just shoulders themselves to stimulate the lagging part. How do you feel about M-W-F, with 30 minutes of whole body compounds in the AM, and 30 minutes of hammering the shoulders in the PM? This is something similar to what Chad Waterbury has written about in the past.
 

Luckytype

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You and Stan Efferding are both advocates of going for walks, he recommends 3 brisk 10-minute walks throughout the day, and you recommended something similar to me in a PM. I can only assume you and Stan share similar diet ideas if you post on the Ray Peat forum.

So let me ask you, what do you think about training 2-a-days? Stan recommends 2 30-minute workouts in a day, instead of 1 60-minute workout, and I like the idea of dedicating an entire, albeit small, workout to just shoulders themselves to stimulate the lagging part. How do you feel about M-W-F, with 30 minutes of whole body compounds in the AM, and 30 minutes of hammering the shoulders in the PM? This is something similar to what Chad Waterbury has written about in the past.

Well I think its imperative that any exercising is tailored for the individual.

I do like longer easier walks for both mind clearance and body. I notice a big difference in thoughts when walking. Strangely once im 20 minutes in, I want to sit down and bang out some work. My mind is much clearer - and if you had told me this 10 years ago, hogwash. The body and brain work on a use-it-or-lose-it function. It only makes sense youll have more energy if you can upregulate mitochondrial function by walking. For a 400lb man whos depressed and lived on the couch for years, those first 100yards are going to be a stress in itself.

I imagine that a brief 30min session twice a day is ok for a healthy individual. I think the benefit would be same amount of work done, with more food spread across the time as a recovery mechanism.The major player is the ability to deal with what the body perceives as a stress. I think in some people they may lose focus after 40 minutes or 45 minutes, and when intensity is important this may hinder their progress. In other ways I think lon they may lose focus after 40 minutes or 45 minutes, and when intensity is important this may hinder their progress as far as intensity.

in terms of overall work output I don't think spacing it makes any difference as long as the person can generate the appropriate amount of intensity and as long as their recovery mechanisms are in place as well as having a healthy overall metabolism to deal with short bursts or long durations.

Because of my stupidity and the ability now to look at things through a compromised individuals I, I do think that in cases where people are on the cusp of being unhealthy it may not be beneficial to do anything extended.

The other thing is if you're thinking about building up a legging body part like a deltoid, if it is dormant like mine were, I also found a lot of progress in doing three or four sets at the end of the day at home really focusing on using the muscle group. When I didnt have the time for workouts of crazy length this aided. Then, daily you are increasing the work across it, keeping the mind muscle connections at a high(super important for dormant groups like delts and quad VMO) so when you do go in for the workout youre recruiting more from it mentally, it may allow you a slight heavier load(even if only a pound or two) and that results better quality time under tension at the gym.

Hell, if you spend a few nights a week in the yard raking leaves, id bet a dollar the delt raises and low angle cable crossovers for chest are better pumped in the gym that week and next.

As far as a compromised person doing whole body? I think it would be pretty difficult on their body until they had the stress mediators back in place. A healthy person? Could probably handle it as long as its approached as just a general workout and nothing super intense. Right now, I personally wouldnt even dream of it.

As far as diet I am completely on board with anything that is considered "reasonable ". If people are having trouble with their gut function it only makes sense that consuming nutrient dense foods that are physically easy to digest to make it easier on the body for a period of time especially those with a compromised metabolism. Perhaps it is my genetics but my tolerance for carbohydrate has always been high, and I have always felt better on salty, carby, saturated fatty foods. By chance I found the forum just because i neglected my body so bad, not practicing what I would preach. I regret it for sure, but now I understand it especially how it can be modified and considered otherwise

Im all about reasonable, and "does it make sense?" Even past the health part.
 

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