Omega 3 Replaces Omega 6 And Lowers Prostaglandin Synthesis

[schultz]

I would like to know the exact mechanism though how omega 3 does more harm in the long run. Is there any study showing this? If it does reduce prostaglandin synthesis by displacing omega 6 then it would be beneficial long term.

It might be more useful to search for MDA, acrolein, or TBARS in pubmed to see possibly detriments of Omega 3. They have been shown to increase lipid peroxidation products significantly, even in the presence of antioxidants. The compounds I listed above are some indicators and direct products of the omega 3 fatty acids. Also check out lipofuscin in pubmed. If your not a fish living in cold water i’d avoid. Btw heres some studies on longevity and PUFA:

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me. @CLASH is spot on here. If you search 'fish oil' or something in Pubmed you are more likely to get epidemiological type studies, or simple comparison studies showing differences between basic diets short-term. Omega-3 does have some nice positive effects, especially short term, and it's not very difficult to demonstrate this in a study. But these oils breakdown more easily than omega-6, which is not something that is controversial. Several studies have shown that fish oil as a supplement contains a lot of very dangerous breakdown products like HNE (1, 2). I know you're talking about eating fatty fish and are not talking about taking supplements, but I thought I would point that out. I did enjoy the last couple sentences from the abstract in the second link...

"Aldehydes have the potential to precipitate serious health problems even at very low absolute intake volumes. These findings may provide reason for sober reflection."

This paper (Reactive Carbonyl Species Derived from Omega-3 and Omega-6 Fatty Acids. - PubMed - NCBI) says something similar at the end of the abstract...

"Omega-3 fatty acids might be easily degraded to smaller monoaldehydes or dicarbonyls. Omega-3 fatty acids have been considered as health improvement components for a long time. However, on the basis of the results presented here, use of omega-3 fatty acids should be re-evaluated in vivo for safety purposes."

So what we are worried about with this type of oil, regardless of whether it came from a supplement or not, is the formation of aldehydes, ketones, epoxy, etc, as these breakdown products are involved in many degenerative diseases. Mainstream science recognizes this, but sometimes they don't implicate omega-3's directly, possibly because there are a lot of studies showing beneficial effects of omega-3's.

If the beneficial effect of omega 3's are through inhibition of omega-6 prostaglandin formation, then I would think omega-6 avoidance + aspirin would be safer options. If you want to eat fatty fish once in a while because you enjoy it, then I say go for it, but if you're eating it strictly for health and you don't enjoy it all that much, then I say skip it.

 

[BigChad]

Right, but in ancestrally insignificant amounts, hard to "OD" on, unlike today. Most of the context of modern (Peat style) PUFA avoidance is coming from a place of your average consumer megadosing vegetable oil + fish oil.

Grass fed beef, per 20g of fat would have how much omega 3, like 1 or 2 grams?

 

[BigChad]

I didn't read the whole thread so forgive me. @CLASH is spot on here. If you search 'fish oil' or something in Pubmed you are more likely to get epidemiological type studies, or simple comparison studies showing differences between basic diets short-term. Omega-3 does have some nice positive effects, especially short term, and it's not very difficult to demonstrate this in a study. But these oils breakdown more easily than omega-6, which is not something that is controversial. Several studies have shown that fish oil as a supplement contains a lot of very dangerous breakdown products like HNE (1, 2). I know you're talking about eating fatty fish and are not talking about taking supplements, but I thought I would point that out. I did enjoy the last couple sentences from the abstract in the second link...

"Aldehydes have the potential to precipitate serious health problems even at very low absolute intake volumes. These findings may provide reason for sober reflection."

This paper (Reactive Carbonyl Species Derived from Omega-3 and Omega-6 Fatty Acids. - PubMed - NCBI) says something similar at the end of the abstract...

"Omega-3 fatty acids might be easily degraded to smaller monoaldehydes or dicarbonyls. Omega-3 fatty acids have been considered as health improvement components for a long time. However, on the basis of the results presented here, use of omega-3 fatty acids should be re-evaluated in vivo for safety purposes."

So what we are worried about with this type of oil, regardless of whether it came from a supplement or not, is the formation of aldehydes, ketones, epoxy, etc, as these breakdown products are involved in many degenerative diseases. Mainstream science recognizes this, but sometimes they don't implicate omega-3's directly, possibly because there are a lot of studies showing beneficial effects of omega-3's.

If the beneficial effect of omega 3's are through inhibition of omega-6 prostaglandin formation, then I would think omega-6 avoidance + aspirin would be safer options. If you want to eat fatty fish once in a while because you enjoy it, then I say go for it, but if you're eating it strictly for health and you don't enjoy it all that much, then I say skip it.

So even 1g fish oil daily from a supplement would have drastic effects, and would be more dangerous than even 10g omega 3 from eating cooked salmon? I thought total PUFA intake is what needs to be monitored but how dangerous would you say 1g omega 3 or omega 6 from an oil based supplement or standalone oil is compared to PUFA from cooked fish or seeds

 

[schultz]

So even 1g fish oil daily from a supplement would have drastic effects, and would be more dangerous than even 10g omega 3 from eating cooked salmon? I thought total PUFA intake is what needs to be monitored but how dangerous would you say 1g omega 3 or omega 6 from an oil based supplement or standalone oil is compared to PUFA from cooked fish or seeds

I don't know really. It might be more damaging right off the bat. I guess it depends on the person and how that persons body handles the 10g. If someone has high FFA in the blood constantly they may be experience worse effects as the fat has a chance to interact with oxygen + metals like iron, or if there is a high amount in the cells. It's probably pretty safe if it's stored. Vitamin E is a consideration as well.

 

[BigChad]

I don't know really. It might be more damaging right off the bat. I guess it depends on the person and how that persons body handles the 10g. If someone has high FFA in the blood constantly they may be experience worse effects as the fat has a chance to interact with oxygen + metals like iron, or if there is a high amount in the cells. It's probably pretty safe if it's stored. Vitamin E is a consideration as well.

there are fish oil products on the market that have "natural mixed tocopherols" in the ingredients list. but how much more harmful would you say the supplemental forms are compared to food forms? Also, with supplemental forms a fish oil capsule or supplement would be comparable to pufa oils like bottled canola oil, grapeseed oil, etc?

 

[tara]

Also, I read a comparison that the Weston Price Foundation made between grain-fed tallow and grass-fed tallow( from New Zealand) and the difference was significant. The grass-fed one had only 1,9% PUFA, while the grain-fed one had 3,45% PUFA. I wonder what would happen if cows were raised in much warmer places.

There are differences in beef fat consistency even depending on which part of the animal it comes from. I've had oxtail where the fat has stayed almost liquid even in the fridge, and fat from round beef ribs that was solidified at room temperature. I would guess the difference has to do with PUFA content, possibly related to temperature. Grass-fed means being out in the weather.

If the beneficial effect of omega 3's are through inhibition of omega-6 prostaglandin formation, then I would think omega-6 avoidance + aspirin would be safer options. If you want to eat fatty fish once in a while because you enjoy it, then I say go for it, but if you're eating it strictly for health and you don't enjoy it all that much, then I say skip it.

+1.
I'll enjoy an occasional bit of salmon, sardines, etc for variety, but I'm not seeking it out as 'health' food, and I'm not supplementing fish oil.

 

[BigChad]

There are differences in beef fat consistency even depending on which part of the animal it comes from. I've had oxtail where the fat has stayed almost liquid even in the fridge, and fat from round beef ribs that was solidified at room temperature. I would guess the difference has to do with PUFA content, possibly related to temperature. Grass-fed means being out in the weather.


+1.
I'll enjoy an occasional bit of salmon, sardines, etc for variety, but I'm not seeking it out as 'health' food, and I'm not supplementing fish oil.

If its nearly liquid in the fridge that seems like its pufa/mufa? While solid at room temp would be mostly saturated?

 

[CLASH]

@BigChad
If you want the same supposed benefits as fish oil take vit E, aspirin, vit k and eat a few oysters per week. This will not only change the inflammatory mediator profile in your body but will also help prevent the peroxidation endproducts rather than promote them.

Mixed tocopherols and other anti-oxidanrs dont fully protect from the peroxidative endproduts of fish oil supplements:

Effect of long-term fish oil supplementation on vitamin E status and lipid peroxidation in women. - PubMed - NCBI

"Plasma vitamin E levels did not change significantly after supplementation; however, after 3 mo of supplementation by young women, plasma vitamin E was significantly lower than after 1 mo. The vitamin E: TG ratio was significantly increased and vitamin EEPA + DHA) significantly decreased. All women showed a significant increase in plasma lipid peroxide through mo 2 of supplementation. After 2 mo, older women had significantly higher lipid peroxide levels than young women. The lipid peroxide:TG ratio, which declined by mo 3, was still significantly higher than baseline. These data indicate that although long-term fish oil supplementation may be beneficial in reducing plasma total TG, susceptibility of plasma lipids to free radical attack is potentiated."

Despite taking vit E the vit E levels and peroxidative products increased with fish oil supplementation...


Dietary fatty acids and oxidative stress in the heart mitochondria. - PubMed - NCBI

"The rats were fed for 16 weeks with coconut, olive, or fish oil diet (saturated, monounsaturated, or polyunsaturated fatty acids, respectively). The cardiac mitochondria from rats fed with coconut oil showed the lowest concentration of oxidized proteins and peroxidized lipids. The fish oil diet leads to the highest oxidative stress in cardiac mitochondria, an effect that could be partly prevented by the antioxidant probucol. Total and LDL cholesterols decreased in plasma of rats fed fish oil, compared to olive and coconut oils fed rats. A diet enriched in saturated fatty acids offers strong advantages for the protection against oxidative stress in heart mitochondria."

The antioxidant here, only partly protected.

Here's some more general evidence (even tho the article is retracted the references are still good):
Why Fish Oil Fails: A Comprehensive 21st Century Lipids-Based Physiologic Analysis

P.S. fish oil and other PUFA lower cholesterol in the body by damaging the liver cells that produce cholesterol. It also negatively effects lipoprotein function.

JCI - Lipid peroxidation and oxidant stress regulate hepatic apolipoprotein B degradation and VLDL production

"To extend these results in vivo, mice were infused with DHA, which increased hepatic TBARSs and reduced VLDL-ApoB100 secretion. These results establish a novel link between lipid peroxidation and oxidant stress with ApoB100 degradation via PERPP, and may be relevant to the hypolipidemic actions of dietary PUFAs, the basal regulation of ApoB100 secretion, and hyperlipidemias arising from ApoB100 overproduction."


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"After 12 weeks of treatment, the anti‐oxidant function of HDL, measured by the HDL inflammatory index, was found significantly impaired in the treatment group in a dose‐dependent fashion with 0.67 [IQR 0.49‐1.04] for placebo vs 0.71 [IQR 0.55‐1.01] for 1 g/day n3‐PUFA vs 0.98 [IQR 0.73‐1.16] for 4 g/day n3‐PUFA (P for trend = 0.018)."

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If you would like to die an early death from heart disease, cancer or a bad infection consume large amounts of fish oil, and/or statins, and/ or omega-6's. You can ask Charles Poliquin about fish oil specifically... well maybe if you used a ouiji board....

 

[tara]

If its nearly liquid in the fridge that seems like its pufa/mufa? While solid at room temp would be mostly saturated?

My guess is that the nearly liquid stuff had a higher proportion of PUFA, than the solid one. I don't know about the MUFA, but maybe that too. What the proportions were I don't know.

 

[Homo Consumericus]

Looking at human origins in Africa I cant see any real need for PUFA in the environment. Everything near the equator is heat resistant and stable besides just a tad of plant ALA. That intake however is so minuscule that its very logical to me how even a small increase in PUFA consumption will have a mere illusion of benefit in the beginning but cause a cascade of destruction later on, especially in warm, high UV climates. I really do think that the body's (animal, human or plant) "safe handling" of PUFA has A LOT to do with the ambient temperature of the organisms environment.

Not to beat a dead hominin ancestor, but humans did not originate in Africa: Europe was the birthplace of mankind, not Africa, scientists find.

Other than that, I ate a 400 gram smoked mackerel last night, and, while I survived, I don't feel as amazing as the morning after eating 400 grams of venison for example. The PUFA content of a whole mackerel feels a bit much for someone who's trying to optimize brain energy production via glucose oxidation (Why does brain metabolism not favor burning of fatty acids to provide energy? Reflections on disadvantages of the use of free fatty acids as fuel f... - PubMed - NCBI), and perhaps the heat during the smoking process reduces potential benefits from the n3s). On the plus side, mackerel's a great source of B12, D, selenium, and magnesium.

 

[BigChad]

@BigChad
If you want the same supposed benefits as fish oil take vit E, aspirin, vit k and eat a few oysters per week. This will not only change the inflammatory mediator profile in your body but will also help prevent the peroxidation endproducts rather than promote them.

Mixed tocopherols and other anti-oxidanrs dont fully protect from the peroxidative endproduts of fish oil supplements:

Effect of long-term fish oil supplementation on vitamin E status and lipid peroxidation in women. - PubMed - NCBI

"Plasma vitamin E levels did not change significantly after supplementation; however, after 3 mo of supplementation by young women, plasma vitamin E was significantly lower than after 1 mo. The vitamin E: TG ratio was significantly increased and vitamin EEPA + DHA) significantly decreased. All women showed a significant increase in plasma lipid peroxide through mo 2 of supplementation. After 2 mo, older women had significantly higher lipid peroxide levels than young women. The lipid peroxide:TG ratio, which declined by mo 3, was still significantly higher than baseline. These data indicate that although long-term fish oil supplementation may be beneficial in reducing plasma total TG, susceptibility of plasma lipids to free radical attack is potentiated."

Despite taking vit E the vit E levels and peroxidative products increased with fish oil supplementation...


Dietary fatty acids and oxidative stress in the heart mitochondria. - PubMed - NCBI

"The rats were fed for 16 weeks with coconut, olive, or fish oil diet (saturated, monounsaturated, or polyunsaturated fatty acids, respectively). The cardiac mitochondria from rats fed with coconut oil showed the lowest concentration of oxidized proteins and peroxidized lipids. The fish oil diet leads to the highest oxidative stress in cardiac mitochondria, an effect that could be partly prevented by the antioxidant probucol. Total and LDL cholesterols decreased in plasma of rats fed fish oil, compared to olive and coconut oils fed rats. A diet enriched in saturated fatty acids offers strong advantages for the protection against oxidative stress in heart mitochondria."

The antioxidant here, only partly protected.

Here's some more general evidence (even tho the article is retracted the references are still good):
Why Fish Oil Fails: A Comprehensive 21st Century Lipids-Based Physiologic Analysis

P.S. fish oil and other PUFA lower cholesterol in the body by damaging the liver cells that produce cholesterol. It also negatively effects lipoprotein function.

JCI - Lipid peroxidation and oxidant stress regulate hepatic apolipoprotein B degradation and VLDL production

"To extend these results in vivo, mice were infused with DHA, which increased hepatic TBARSs and reduced VLDL-ApoB100 secretion. These results establish a novel link between lipid peroxidation and oxidant stress with ApoB100 degradation via PERPP, and may be relevant to the hypolipidemic actions of dietary PUFAs, the basal regulation of ApoB100 secretion, and hyperlipidemias arising from ApoB100 overproduction."


Error - Cookies Turned Off

"After 12 weeks of treatment, the anti‐oxidant function of HDL, measured by the HDL inflammatory index, was found significantly impaired in the treatment group in a dose‐dependent fashion with 0.67 [IQR 0.49‐1.04] for placebo vs 0.71 [IQR 0.55‐1.01] for 1 g/day n3‐PUFA vs 0.98 [IQR 0.73‐1.16] for 4 g/day n3‐PUFA (P for trend = 0.018)."

--------------------------------------------------------

If you would like to die an early death from heart disease, cancer or a bad infection consume large amounts of fish oil, and/or statins, and/ or omega-6's. You can ask Charles Poliquin about fish oil specifically... well maybe if you used a ouiji board....

I have to read through your stuff but what about black cumin seed oil, like 500mg of it? It's mostly omega 6 but also has thymoquinone
don't oysters have PUFA in them

 

[Dave Clark]

I have to read through your stuff but what about black cumin seed oil, like 500mg of it? It's mostly omega 6 but also has thymoquinone
don't oysters have PUFA in them

Here is a powdered form extract that has higher thymoquinone levels and lower to no omega-6 oils:
Nigella Sativa Extract Powder | Black Seed Extract

 

[RealNeat]

Not to beat a dead hominin ancestor, but humans did not originate in Africa: Europe was the birthplace of mankind, not Africa, scientists find.

Other than that, I ate a 400 gram smoked mackerel last night, and, while I survived, I don't feel as amazing as the morning after eating 400 grams of venison for example. The PUFA content of a whole mackerel feels a bit much for someone who's trying to optimize brain energy production via glucose oxidation (Why does brain metabolism not favor burning of fatty acids to provide energy? Reflections on disadvantages of the use of free fatty acids as fuel f... - PubMed - NCBI), and perhaps the heat during the smoking process reduces potential benefits from the n3s). On the plus side, mackerel's a great source of B12, D, selenium, and magnesium.

I had heard some rumors of that relatively recent discovery, interesting article however these comments in that same article don't seem as conclusive as yours,
"Retired anthropologist and author Dr Peter Andrews, formerly at the Natural History Museum in London, said: "It is possible that the human lineage originated in Europe, but very substantial fossil evidence places the origin in Africa, including several partial skeletons and skulls. I would be hesitant about using a single character from an isolated fossil to set against the evidence from Africa." Plus I wonder what dating technique they used?

However still not a huge difference in consumption of unsaturates I imagine, as even the Med (where Im from) can get quite hot for long periods of time. As much as I agree with the 400 gram mackerel and its PUFA burden are you sure it wasn't that combined with the fact that it was smoked? You can generate some hefty estrogenic/carcinogenic byproducts by smoking fatty meat. I never feel good on smoked food.

 

[RealNeat]

I have to read through your stuff but what about black cumin seed oil, like 500mg of it? It's mostly omega 6 but also has thymoquinone
don't oysters have PUFA in them

I would just eat the whole seed instead of the oil, the stability must be improved with the compounds in the whole seed? Don't seeds like to stay in their seed form as thats their preservation mechanism? Don't the fats mobilize only to assist in the germination? Id keep all seeds and nuts whole with the only processing being refrigerated activation/ sprouting.

 

[BigChad]

Here is a powdered form extract that has higher thymoquinone levels and lower to no omega-6 oils:
Nigella Sativa Extract Powder | Black Seed Extract

I have seen that but have heard the black cumin seeds and their oil itself has a bunch of other compounds besides just thymoquinone. i think there were like 12 or 15 different compounds mentioned. the nootropics depot product has only thymoquinone

I would just eat the whole seed instead of the oil, the stability must be improved with the compounds in the whole seed? Don't seeds like to stay in their seed form as thats their preservation mechanism? Don't the fats mobilize only to assist in the germination? Id keep all seeds and nuts whole with the only processing being refrigerated activation/ sprouting.

yeah they contain fiber in seed form, and some carb/protein which you lose with the oil.
i heard you are supposed to chew the seeds to get their benefit not just swallow them whole though. so you would absorb some pufa that way right

 

[RealNeat]

I have seen that but have heard the black cumin seeds and their oil itself has a bunch of other compounds besides just thymoquinone. i think there were like 12 or 15 different compounds mentioned. the nootropics depot product has only thymoquinone



yeah they contain fiber in seed form, and some carb/protein which you lose with the oil.
i heard you are supposed to chew the seeds to get their benefit not just swallow them whole though. so you would absorb some pufa that way right

They are traditionally eaten with honey in the middle east, that seems like a good PUFA mitigation method... I used to take a spoon full of raw honey and sprinkle the seeds over it and chew. Its actually pretty tasty with a prominent zing.

 

[BigChad]

They are traditionally eaten with honey in the middle east, that seems like a good PUFA mitigation method... I used to take a spoon full of raw honey and sprinkle the seeds over it and chew. Its actually pretty tasty with a prominent zing.

how does the honey mitigate the pufas?
also what do you think of nature nates raw honey. im not sure if its actually raw based on the taste, texture etc

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

There are differences in beef fat consistency even depending on which part of the animal it comes from. I've had oxtail where the fat has stayed almost liquid even in the fridge, and fat from round beef ribs that was solidified at room temperature. I would guess the difference has to do with PUFA content, possibly related to temperature. Grass-fed means being out in the weather.

Good catch, I forgot that possibility. Yeah, I've seen that first-hand, when I used to make bone broth from cow's hoof. Sometimes the fat would harden in the fridge, but sometimes it would stay pasty, just like chicken fat or lard.

I also think the PUFA content is higher when the beef fat is pasty/liquid, since I was noticing some inflammation after consuming a lot of it. It may have more MUFA a well, since MUFAs may not harden as much as SFAs do in cold temperatures.

Currently, I ask my butcher for chest fat to render tallow. It's really cheap where I live and the fat always hardens in the fridge.

 

[schultz]

There are differences in beef fat consistency even depending on which part of the animal it comes from.

This is true. In tanning they sometimes use something called neatsfoot oil, which is liquid at room temperature. It comes from the shins of cows, or ruminant animals generally. I remember wondering about my sheep and how they have exposed shins in the winter and thinking they must get quite cold in that area. It was just sort of a passing thought. Anyway, a few months ago I was attempting to tan one of my goat hides and came across neatsfoot oil in my tanning research. According to one source, it's about 60% MUFA and only 3% or so PUFA. Wikipedia says this...

"Fat from warm-blooded animals normally has a high melting point, becoming hard when cool – but neatsfoot oil remains liquid at room temperature. This is because the relatively slender legs and feet of animals such as cattle are adapted to tolerate and maintain much lower temperatures than those of the body core, using countercurrent heat exchange in the legs between warm arterial and cooler venous blood – other body fat would become stiff at these temperatures. This characteristic of neatsfoot oil allows it to soak easily into leather."

(neat is apparently an old English word for cow or ox, or even beast, generally, according to Etymonline)

Anyhoo, I thought all of that was interesting so I had to share........

 

[tara]

In tanning they sometimes use something called neatsfoot oil, which is liquid at room temperature. It comes from the shins of cows, or ruminant animals generally.

I've come across neatsfoot oil long ago, and hadn't thought about that!

I remember wondering about my sheep and how they have exposed shins in the winter and thinking they must get quite cold in that area.

Yes! Sheep are designed to thrive in cold climate - super warm woolley coats on their bodies, but their skinny legs stick out the bottom.

Thanks for this, physiology and etymology and all. :)

Good to know it's mostly MUFA.