Omega 3 Replaces Omega 6 And Lowers Prostaglandin Synthesis

[Beefcake]

Also looking at the first study I posted that omega 3 displaces Arachidonic acid and that arachidonic acid is far more effective at stimulating prostaglandins thus causing excess inflammation and autoimmune conditions. Well foods highest in arachidonic acid is meat ranging from chicken, lamb, beef, pork. So why would these foods be peaty?
Found this study saying that cooking meat doubles arachidonic acid in beef.
Assessment of the arachidonic acid content in foods commonly consumed in the American diet. - PubMed - NCBI

So cooked meat should be very inflammatory through this mechanism? So maybe fresh fish cold cut like sushi is less harmful than eating meat. Looking at the american diet high in steak, burgers etc compared to japan eating cold cut fresh fish it sure seems that way. No one ever taken this into consideration?

Also this study

Nutrition and Reproductive Health: Sperm versus Erythrocyte Lipidomic Profile and ω-3 Intake

The effects of supplementation were clearly visible. They were statistically significant for EPA (p < 0.01) and DHA (p < 0.03). In particular, arachidonic acid levels in the erythrocyte membranes decreased after supplementation (p < 0.009). This could be indicated as favourable remodelling of the erythrocyte membranes due to the ω-3 supplementation, with exchange of membrane lipids with the fatty acid pool enriched with the ω-3 supplementation, so that less inflammatory status can be obtained from a better ω-6/ω-3 balance. Considering one patient who exited from the study, the risk of cardiovascular disease after treatment decreased to the intermediate range (4–8%) in 8 out of the 9 studied patients.

A higher DHA content was associated with better sperm morphology and function. On the other hand, it is well known that polyunsaturated fatty acids are particularly susceptible to peroxidation damage by free radicals. Although reactive oxygen species (ROS) play significant role for physiological sperm function, when the production of potentially destructive ROS exceeds the natural antioxidant defences.

So on sperm it has beneficial effects ROS has beneficial effects on sperm as long as there’s enough antioxidant defences in place.
This really reflects the iron scenario where iron is needed and healthy as long as the body can manage and handle it with vitamin C, vitamin E and glutathione. I don’t believe everything is so black and white and this could be a reason why some people here have problems and never heal. Their thinking is too black and white. Excess consumption of antioxidants has been shown to cause negative health effects. Likely from inhibiting the necessary oxidation processes. Many people complain about fatigue from excess vitamin E supplementation. All of this is very individual as some people are in a state of excess oxidation and they feel better uping their antioxidant and then you have people with excess intake of antioxidants who limit their use of oxidants and end up with problems.

Bump
Like brain dopamine production seems to be very oxidant dependent. With proper balance of oxidants and antioxidant seems to be optimal.
Might be why both iron and omega 3 deficiency alteres brain dopamine and prolactin (lowers dopamine and increases prolactin)

 

[Beefcake]

Association between fish consumption and risk of dementia: a new study from China and a systematic literature review and meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

New large study from 2018.

Chinese adults aged ≥60 years in six provinces 6981 participants took part in a household health survey of dementia prevalence and risk factors. In addition, 33 964 participants from eleven published and eligible studies were included in the systematic review and meta-analysis.

Seems to be a pretty large study on population. Several thousands participants and reviewing 11 studies on the same subject. What did they find?

CONCLUSIONS: Greater consumption of fish is associated with a lower risk of dementia. Increasing fish consumption may help prevent dementia worldwide regardless of income level.

How is this possible? Is it the protein and nutrients from the fish? There’s other meat and foods high in these proteins and nutrients. Does not seem to be the only reason. People have eaten fish since ever without problems.

I am not convinced.
All studies posted here about negative effects from fish oil is using rancid supplements, high doses and only review cellular effects. Like the AR prostate cancer degradation. Why compare effects on prostate cancer with studies looking at general effects in humans. Its non sense studies. We just have to take rays word that the large meta studies are fake and that the specific effects on cancer cells or something like that is the truth.
Seems to be too many questions unanswered that no one can manage to answer. Looking at studies fish seems to be healthy but excess intake of fish oil supplements are likely just a scam. But I’m convinced a certain degree of omega 3s are needed for proper oxidation process in the body. Just like iron metabolism.

 

[haidut]

why long-distance runners have low heart rates. I think it's because of all the PUFA metabolites that comes out of metabolizing PUFA free fatty acids when glycogen/glucose supply is in short supply or exhausted. Would these metabolites accumulate eventually in the blood vessels, as well as cholesteryl esters from oxidized LDL, which are linked to PUFAs but not to saturated fats? Wouldn't these plaques form and eventually restrict tissue oxygenation?

Yes to all of these and couple of other things. The organism adaptively lowers thyroid function when exposed to chronic stress to prevent further tissue damage. It would be VERY hard to run a marathon if your resting BPM is in the 90s, or keep your heart from exploding while exposed to some other stressful event that raises your heart rate even more through adrenaline. So, T3 production/release is adaptively lowered if you are under chronic stress simply to protect you from going into cardiac arrest. In addition, the release of cysteine, methionine and tryptophan from muscle/tissue breakdown during such prolonged exhaustive events also block/lower thyroid function. This effect is well-known and even mainstream medicine does not dispute it. But they claim that having a lower heart rate is great for you so "nothing to worry about". Peat said that even after a 30min strenuous "aerobic" exercise the blood levels of T drop down 90%+ and stay like that for several hours, and glucose oxidation drops even after 5 minutes of strenuous exercise. If this is done on a regular basis then a chronic thyroid downregulation starts to happen and eventually becomes full blown hypothyroidism, especially if combined with a carb- or calorie-restrictive diet.

Ray Peat, PhD: Quotes Relating to Exercise – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
"...“Lactic acid and carbon dioxide have opposing effects. Intense exercise damages cells in ways that cumulatively impair metabolism. There is clear evidence that glycolysis, producing lactic acid from glucose, has toxic effects, suppressing respiration and killing cells. Within five minutes, exercise lowers the activity of enzymes that oxidize glucose. Diabetes, Alzheimer’s disease, and general aging involve increased lactic acid production and accumulated metabolic (mitochondrial) damage.”

"...“I’m not sure who introduced the term “aerobic” to describe the state of anaerobic metabolism that develops during stressful exercise, but it has had many harmful repercussions. In experiments, T3 production is stopped very quickly by even “sub-aerobic” exercise, probably because of the combination of a decrease of blood glucose and an increase in free fatty acids. In a healthy person, rest will tend to restore the normal level of T3, but there is evidence that even very good athletes remain in a hypothyroid state even at rest. A chronic increase of lactic acid and cortisol indicates that something is wrong. The “slender muscles” of endurance runners are signs of a catabolic state, that has been demonstrated even in the heart muscle. A slow heart beat very strongly suggests hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid people, who are likely to produce lactic acid even at rest, are especially susceptible to the harmful effects of “aerobic” exercise. The good effect some people feel from exercise is probably the result of raising the body temperature; a warm bath will do the same for people with low body temperature.”

 

[Cirion]

Interesting. Did not know it only takes 5 minutes to destroy hormones, but I'd believe it. I experienced this a couple weeks ago when I rode my bike uphill for about 5minutes. I felt awful the whole rest of the day. Of course I'm also fat and out of shape too LOL.

What would you recommend for exercise then if one wants to avoid any issues? I kind of have an idea of the answer already, but just curious what you'd say. Right now I only maybe walk a few minutes a day and nothing strenuous, sometimes not even that. Is there a max heart rate that Peat recommends not to exceed during any exercise to avoid the drop in androgens? How does one do weightlifting and get stronger but without ruining androgen levels? Anything over like 50% of your 1 rep max is going to be at least slightly strenuous, and you can even make < 50% strenuous simply by performing lots of reps.

Hypothyroid people, who are likely to produce lactic acid even at rest, are especially susceptible to the harmful effects of “aerobic” exercise.

Yes, as I mentioned above this is 100% correct. Exercise, in my current state of health, is absolutely devastating and I avoid it at all costs.

 

[Luann]

I wonder if there is a better label for such topics than anti-Peat. After all, I'm sure this study is just a piece of the larger truth

 

[Kartoffel]

I wonder if there is a better label for such topics than anti-Peat. After all, I'm sure this study is just a piece of the larger truth

I also dislike this label and don't really understand what it is meant to achieve.

 

[Cirion]

I also dislike this label and don't really understand what it is meant to achieve.

I am guessing it's due to the surge of anti-peat posts lately like saying fasting is beneficial, in this case saying any PUFA's are healthy, etc... and trying in particular not to confuse any new members as to what Peat actually says in regards to diet. I don't think these discussions are inherently bad, but I do think a new member could get confused when people are saying things like PUFA are or can be healthy when Peat clearly says the opposite. These are the ray peat forums after all.

 

[haidut]

What would you recommend for exercise then if one wants to avoid any issues? I kind of have an idea of the answer already, but just curious what you'd say. Right now I only maybe walk a few minutes a day and nothing strenuous, sometimes not even that. Is there a max heart rate that Peat recommends not to exceed during any exercise to avoid the drop in androgens? How does one do weightlifting and get stronger but without ruining androgen levels? Anything over like 50% of your 1 rep max is going to be at least slightly strenuous, and you can even make < 50% strenuous simply by performing lots of reps.

I think taking some methylene blue and doing brisk walking at a pace that allows you to have conversation would be the closest to "aerobic" exercise one can get without running into issues. Other than that, doing a few laps of swimming where each lap is sufficiently short to not cause lactic acid buildup, would also be good. Light weight training should also be good. I think somebody who had debilitating fatigue after major surgery asked Peat about that and the response was simply holding the 5lbs-10lbs in each hand and moving your arms back and forth, and up and down and doing a few squats with them would be enough. Maybe 10-15min daily 3 times a week would be enough. If you are active and have an office job and a family, simply walking around, getting groceries, carrying things around, etc is plenty of exercise. People in good hormonal balance do not need much activity to be in good muscular shape. And if there is hypothyroidism or other hormonal issue then exercise may make things worse.
I personally do 60 pushups 3 times a week and I find it more than enough to keep both good chest and core strength.

 

[Beefcake]

Looks like it was the PCOS study. I remember taking some krill oil and having brain fog, which led me to finding that study.

Just to add on the subject I did find this study

https://www.rbmojournal.com/article/S1472-6483(18)30586-8/pdf#page5

”
They found that total fat intake, and intake of PUFAs in particular,
was associated with small increases in testosterone concentrations in healthy women, and that PUFAs and DHA were associated with increased progesterone concentrations and a decreased risk of anovulation. Others have shown that women with high omega-3 PUFA intake had a decreased risk of endometriosis (Missmer et al., 2010; Hopeman et al., 2015).”

So this points to omega 3 actually increasing testosterone and progesterone in women rather than that study saying it did decrease testosterone in women with PCOS which would seem to be balancing the excess testosterone in PCOS. This makes sense if omega 3 raises progesterone in women since PCOS is usually accompanied by low progesterone. As you probably know progesterone balances estrogen and testosterone to healthy levels.

 

[Beefcake]

OMEGA-3 PUFAS AND SPERM QUALITY

The lipid composition of the sperm membrane has a significant effect
on the functional characteristics of spermatozoa. Most researchers have indicated that DHA is a major PUFA in human spermatozoa, and its deficiency in spermatozoa is a typical sign of subfertile or infertile men (Esmaeili et al., 2015).
In humans, sperm motility is strongly correlated with sperm membrane DHA; decreased amounts of DHA and EPA, and increased omega-6/omega-3 PUFAs, were reported in semen of men with oligozoospermia, asthenozoospermia, or both (Safarinejad et al., 2010). Moreover, total n-3 PUFA of normozoospermia
was significantly higher than in men with oligozoospermia, asthenozoospermia and oligoasthenozoospermia (OAT). Esmaeili et al. (2015) conducted a subsequent large-scale study for a relatively long duration of 32 weeks, in which 266 infertile men with idiopathic OAT were randomly assigned to fish oil capsules that contained EPA and DHA at doses
of 1.84 g per day or placebo capsules containing corn oil. In the fish oil group, EPA and DHA levels in red blood cells and seminal plasma showed a statistically significant correlation with those in
the spermatozoa, and a significant improvement of sperm cell total count and sperm cell concentration was observed (Safarinejad, 2011).

 

[sunraiser]

I don't have anything intelligent to add to the thread beyond small anecdote but I eat tinned mackerel quite regularly and it treats me well. When I crave it's so so enjoyable!

Also, fish in general are pretty much unparalleled sources of magnesium, white fish and tuna in particular but mackerel and salmon, too.

 

[Kartoffel]

OMEGA-3 PUFAS AND SPERM QUALITY

The lipid composition of the sperm membrane has a significant effect
on the functional characteristics of spermatozoa. Most researchers have indicated that DHA is a major PUFA in human spermatozoa, and its deficiency in spermatozoa is a typical sign of subfertile or infertile men (Esmaeili et al., 2015).
In humans, sperm motility is strongly correlated with sperm membrane DHA; decreased amounts of DHA and EPA, and increased omega-6/omega-3 PUFAs, were reported in semen of men with oligozoospermia, asthenozoospermia, or both (Safarinejad et al., 2010). Moreover, total n-3 PUFA of normozoospermia
was significantly higher than in men with oligozoospermia, asthenozoospermia and oligoasthenozoospermia (OAT). Esmaeili et al. (2015) conducted a subsequent large-scale study for a relatively long duration of 32 weeks, in which 266 infertile men with idiopathic OAT were randomly assigned to fish oil capsules that contained EPA and DHA at doses
of 1.84 g per day or placebo capsules containing corn oil. In the fish oil group, EPA and DHA levels in red blood cells and seminal plasma showed a statistically significant correlation with those in
the spermatozoa, and a significant improvement of sperm cell total count and sperm cell concentration was observed (Safarinejad, 2011).

DHA is greatly increased in patients with defective sperm.

Sci-Hub | Fatty acid composition of human spermatozoa and seminal plasma levels of oxidative stress biomarkers in subfertile males. Prostaglandins, Leukotrienes and Essential Fatty Acids, 77(2), 117–121 | 10.1016/j.plefa.2007.08.003

"Our data confirm the results obtained by Calamera et al. [13], who observed that sperm from normozoospermic individuals have lower unsaturated fatty acid content than sperm from asthenozoospermic individuals. They also assayed superoxide dismutase (SOD) content of spermatozoa which is increased in normozoospermic individuals. Calamera et al. therefore, concluded that spermatozoa from normozoospermic samples are less susceptible to reactive oxygen species (ROS)-induced peroxidative damages.

Ollero et al. reported that there is a net decrease in unsaturated fatty acid content, especially DHA, content and a concomitant decrease in saturated fatty acid content during the process of sperm maturation [3]. They concluded that one important physiological consequence of DHA removal from human sperm membrane during the process of sperm maturation is to decrease the susceptibility of sperm to lipid peroxidation.

We can conclude that spermatozoa from pathological samples may contain high levels of polyunsaturated fatty acids. On the other hand, these patients may contain low levels of antioxidant systems in their seminal plasma. Therefore, spermatozoa from pathological samples are more susceptible to ROS-induced peroxidative damage."​

 

[PurpleHeart]

A healthy body can probably do just fine with a little bit of pufa from natural sources like fresh cold water fish Many Tribes of relatively healthy people grew up
eating wild fish But taking rancid fish oil supplements with added synthetic and probably alergenic vitamins is miles away from eating fish which not only have good quality protein but come with a lot of nutrition like vitamin d vit e vit a etc.

 

[Fractality]

I am guessing it's due to the surge of anti-peat posts lately like saying fasting is beneficial, in this case saying any PUFA's are healthy, etc... and trying in particular not to confuse any new members as to what Peat actually says in regards to diet. I don't think these discussions are inherently bad, but I do think a new member could get confused when people are saying things like PUFA are or can be healthy when Peat clearly says the opposite. These are the ray peat forums after all.

The thing that gets me is that when I was regularly lifting heavy I looked more androgenic than I do now. My facial structure and body has softened; I would estimate I have 50-80% of the muscle I used to have (depends on the muscle). Now my main exercise is biking once a week and I'm trying to be more consistent about doing push-ups, pull-ups, and lighter weight (20-25 lb) dumbbell exercises.

 

[CLASH]

@Beefcake
The american diet isnt steak and burgers anymore, maybe in the 50’s it was.

Changes in consumption of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids in the United States during the 20th century

It seems to be chicken, soybean oil, shortening and grains.

 

[BigChad]

I know what peat says.
No omega 3 activates PGE2 much weaker than omega 6. Maybe not eating PUFAs in general is most beneficial but at least omega 3 is more beneficial than omega 6 since it does not activate prostaglandin synthesis nearly as much. If your cell structure is mostly made out of omega 6 then replacing it with omega 3 would be beneficial as it would reduce mitogenesis and cancer. I would still never supplement with fish oil. If I would consume it would be from as fresh fish as possible. And obviously I don’t see why you would need it in any high amounts since our body composition of PUFA is quite low and I don’t believe that if PUFA is essential to us that we need to supplement with it to have enough. It’s like comparing magnesium with a trace mineral. You don’t need to supplement trace minerals. You could call PUFA a trace fatty acid.
My point of posting this study is not to recommend people to take omega 3. Just that eating fish once in awhile is likely not gonna kill you. I would like to know the exact mechanism though how omega 3 does more harm in the long run. Is there any study showing this? If it does reduce prostaglandin synthesis by displacing omega 6 then it would be beneficial long term.

Wouldn't fish oil with vitamin e be safer than fish since you are consuming only 1g omega 3 vs 5+g from fish

 

[RealNeat]

Looking at human origins in Africa I cant see any real need for PUFA in the environment. Everything near the equator is heat resistant and stable besides just a tad of plant ALA. That intake however is so minuscule that its very logical to me how even a small increase in PUFA consumption will have a mere illusion of benefit in the beginning but cause a cascade of destruction later on, especially in warm, high UV climates. I really do think that the body's (animal, human or plant) "safe handling" of PUFA has A LOT to do with the ambient temperature of the organisms environment.

 

[BigChad]

Looking at human origins in Africa I cant see any real need for PUFA in the environment. Everything near the equator is heat resistant and stable besides just a tad of plant ALA. That intake however is so minuscule that its very logical to me how even a small increase in PUFA consumption will have a mere illusion of benefit in the beginning but cause a cascade of destruction later on, especially in warm, high UV climates. I really do think that the body's (animal, human or plant) "safe handling" of PUFA has A LOT to do with the ambient temperature of the organisms environment.

Grass fed beef supposedly has omega 3 though as well as lamb fat?

 

[RealNeat]

Grass fed beef supposedly has omega 3 though as well as lamb fat?

Right, but in ancestrally insignificant amounts, hard to "OD" on, unlike today. Most of the context of modern (Peat style) PUFA avoidance is coming from a place of your average consumer megadosing vegetable oil + fish oil.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Looking at human origins in Africa I cant see any real need for PUFA in the environment. Everything near the equator is heat resistant and stable besides just a tad of plant ALA. That intake however is so minuscule that its very logical to me how even a small increase in PUFA consumption will have a mere illusion of benefit in the beginning but cause a cascade of destruction later on, especially in warm, high UV climates. I really do think that the body's (animal, human or plant) "safe handling" of PUFA has A LOT to do with the ambient temperature of the organisms environment.

Dates are a great example of that, they have so little PUFA that you can thousands of calories without consuming high amounts of polyunsaturates.

Also, I read a comparison that the Weston Price Foundation made between grain-fed tallow and grass-fed tallow( from New Zealand) and the difference was significant. The grass-fed one had only 1,9% PUFA, while the grain-fed one had 3,45% PUFA. I wonder what would happen if cows were raised in much warmer places.

https://www.westonaprice.org/health...lysis-of-grass-fed-and-grain-fed-beef-tallow/