Omega 3 Replaces Omega 6 And Lowers Prostaglandin Synthesis

[Kartoffel]

Fair enough. I'm glad you are bringing up all these points, I don't know the answers myself

I absolutely hate that a lot of the forum goes into a crying fit defending some abstract thought of Ray's, and not being able to defend it. I haven't seen anyone healthy with low estrogen, but a lot of people loathing it, and aromatase deficiency is classified as a disease.

As you say, I don't recall an explanation of why fish oil suppresses the immune system.
I genuinely hate the hypocrisy of Ray saying to be a self-authortiatian but then this forum worshiping him and disagreeing with things without any proof. Several times Peat himself said they misunderstood what his intention was... It's pathetic

You shouldn't blindly have to agree with every unexplained point of Peat's to be on the forum

Yes, we should rather base our understanding on studies of which we only read the title or half the abstract like you and Mr. Beefcake. That fish oil suppresses the immune system is not some abstract idea, it's a fact.

Immunosuppressive effects of fish oil in normal human volunteers: correlation with the in vitro effects of eicosapentanoic acid on human lymphocytes. - PubMed - NCBI
Fermented fish oil suppresses T helper 1/2 cell response in a mouse model of atopic dermatitis via generation of CD4 + CD25 + Foxp3 + T cells

 

[ShotTrue]

Yes, we should rather base our understanding on studies of which we only read the title or half the abstract like you and Mr. Beefcake. That fish oil suppresses the immune system is not some abstract idea, it's a fact.

Immunosuppressive effects of fish oil in normal human volunteers: correlation with the in vitro effects of eicosapentanoic acid on human lymphocytes. - PubMed - NCBI

I think that's one fo the ways its anti inflammatory. I have seen people use it to stop the inflammation of autoimmune disease.
Not that I advocate it, the drawbacks seems worse than the results
I haven't read about fish oil in a long time, I was simply Agreeing with @Beefcake in that he seemed to disprove the testosterone lowering effect I thought it had

 

[lampofred]

Fair enough. I'm glad you are bringing up all these points, I don't know the answers myself

I absolutely hate that a lot of the forum goes into a crying fit defending some abstract thought of Ray's, and not being able to defend it. I haven't seen anyone healthy with low estrogen, but a lot of people loathing it, and aromatase deficiency is classified as a disease.

As you say, I don't recall an explanation of why fish oil suppresses the immune system.
I genuinely hate the hypocrisy of Ray saying to be a self-authortiatian but then this forum worshiping him and disagreeing with things without any proof. Several times Peat himself said they misunderstood what his intention was... It's pathetic

You shouldn't blindly have to agree with every unexplained point of Peat's to be on the forum

Are you even reading RP's articles??? He explains it all in detail if you read the articles, if you are just listening to the interviews and getting the info from there, of course he is not going to talk about the technical science behind it because there is not enough time to explain all the jargon.

Fish oil breaks down into numerous products once it is exposed to high heat, these breakdown products poison your system by killing immune system cells, overstimulating excitatory neurotransmitters and burning neurons out, getting incorporated into tissues and causing oxidative damage.

The temporary benefit is that poisoning your immune system lowers inflammation in the short run and because it replaces omega 6 in prostaglandin production process, it reduces certain prostaglandins. This explains the increased testosterone/dopamine in the short run. But in the long run the systemic damage it causes drastically increases the likelihood of getting cancer.

This is all there if you just read the article.

 

[Kartoffel]

I think that's one fo the ways its anti inflammatory. I have seen people use it to stop the inflammation of autoimmune disease.
Not that I advocate it, the drawbacks seems worse than the results
I haven't read about fish oil in a long time, I was simply Agreeing with @Beefcake in that he seemed to disprove the testosterone lowering effect I thought it had

Ok, first you say the idea that FO suppresses the immune system is an abstract idea without any proof. I show you proof. Then you say "well that's just one of his anti-inflammatory actions". Great reasoning.

 

[Beefcake]

Yes, we should rather base our understanding on studies of which we only read the title or half the abstract like you and Mr. Beefcake. That fish oil suppresses the immune system is not some abstract idea, it's a fact.

Immunosuppressive effects of fish oil in normal human volunteers: correlation with the in vitro effects of eicosapentanoic acid on human lymphocytes. - PubMed - NCBI
Fermented fish oil suppresses T helper 1/2 cell response in a mouse model of atopic dermatitis via generation of CD4 + CD25 + Foxp3 + T cells

Lol jesus christ I read all studies from
Top to bottom. The first one you posted here uses a daily dose of two and a half gram per day of EPA. Thats huge and no one would get that from diet. The 2nd one is very missleading. They tested and argue that fish oil is beneficial against excessive inflammation obviously it is since it supress prostaglandins by displacing omega 6. And who knows maybe its even an anti histamine. Good find googling it there seems to be more evidence it works as an antihistamine. Even more peaty properties than I thought

 

[Kartoffel]

Lol jesus christ I read all studies from
Top to bottom

Sure you do, Bro.

. The first one you posted here uses a daily dose of two and a half gram per day of EPA. Thats huge and no one would get that from diet. The 2nd one is very missleading. They tested and argue that fish oil is beneficial against excessive inflammation obviously it is since it supress prostaglandins by displacing omega 6. And who knows maybe its even an anti histamine. Good find googling it there seems to be more evidence it works as an antihistamine.

Nothing to say about the studies regarding life span and cirrhosis?

Even more peaty properties than I thought

By all means, enjoy your fish oil!

 

[ilikecats]

@Beefcake that's from Ray, but here it is if you're interested: "Transthyretin (also called prealbumin) is important as a carrier of the thyroid hormone and vitamin A. The unsaturation of vitamin A and of thyroxin allow them to bind firmly with transthyretin and certain other proteins, but the unsaturated fatty acids are able to displace them, with an efficiency that increases with the number of double bonds, from linoleic (with two double bonds) through DHA (with six double bonds)."- Ray Peat (I'm not sure as of now what his source is but maybe someone can ask him for his source I'm sure he'd provide it)
you might find this interesting and informative (some technical nutritional writing on PUFA from someone who disagrees with Ray on a lot of things and basically addresses the above quote):

Polyunsaturated fats: why are they harmful? Part I - The Last Breath
Jan Kwasniewski: unsaturated fats - The Last Breath

 

[ShotTrue]

Ok, first you say the idea that FO suppresses the immune system is an abstract idea without any proof. I show you proof. Then you say "well that's just one of his anti-inflammatory actions". Great reasoning.

I hadn't read the article in a long time, you seem on edge dude. Hope you're having a good day
I'm saying such because I read of some people stopping autoimmune inflammatory conditions with fish oil. Like hairloss.
I haven't taken fish oil because i believed its immune suppression, I forgot all the info though

 

[ShotTrue]

Are you even reading RP's articles??? He explains it all in detail if you read the articles, if you are just listening to the interviews and getting the info from there, of course he is not going to talk about the technical science behind it because there is not enough time to explain all the jargon.

Fish oil breaks down into numerous products once it is exposed to high heat, these breakdown products poison your system by killing immune system cells, overstimulating excitatory neurotransmitters and burning neurons out, getting incorporated into tissues and causing oxidative damage.

The temporary benefit is that poisoning your immune system lowers inflammation in the short run and because it replaces omega 6 in prostaglandin production process, it reduces certain prostaglandins. This explains the increased testosterone/dopamine in the short run. But in the long run the systemic damage it causes drastically increases the likelihood of getting cancer.

This is all there if you just read the article.

I read it, its just been a long time, and with hormone imbalances my memory has been impaired. I think I mostly gleaned from Danny Roddy's article Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Hair Loss Wunderkind or Arbiter of Doom? , as I don't remember the part of it killing immune system cells

But are you saying that the higher test or more sperm motility had inflammation causing those to be suboptimal? That sounds like an assumption

 

[olive]

This is a nuanced and difficult topic. Ex-member @tyw has this excellent blog post with a wealth of information: Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)

Personally I see no reason to avoid small amounts of fresh, wild caught fish like sardines or salmon occasionally.

Another ex-member @Travis also stressed the importance of SMALL amounts of o3.

 

[lampofred]

I read it, its just been a long time, and with hormone imbalances my memory has been impaired. I think I mostly gleaned from Danny Roddy's article Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Hair Loss Wunderkind or Arbiter of Doom? , as I don't remember the part of it killing immune system cells

But are you saying that the higher test or more sperm motility had inflammation causing those to be suboptimal? That sounds like an assumption

I don't fully understand what you're saying, but yeah inflammation does lower testosterone and lower sperm motility, if that's what you were asking about. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, so if you think that might be wrong and that it is just an assumption on my part, feel free to post cases where inflammation is shown to be a good thing.

BTW, if you are thinking of taking fish oil for the hair benefits, why not just take aspirin? It has the anti-inflammatory effects of fish oil without the carcinogenic properties. And aspirin has done a lot more for my hair than fish oil did way back when I took it. I have several posts about how I completely cured hair loss years ago.

 

[olive]

I don't fully understand what you're saying, but yeah inflammation does lower testosterone and lower sperm motility, if that's what you were asking about. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, so if you think that might be wrong and that it is just an assumption on my part, feel free to post cases where inflammation is shown to be a good thing.

BTW, if you are thinking of taking fish oil for the hair benefits, why not just take aspirin? It has the anti-inflammatory effects of fish oil without the carcinogenic properties. And aspirin has done a lot more for my hair than fish oil did way back when I took it. I have several posts about how I completely cured hair loss years ago.

Aspirin does lower prostaglandins but also the D6D enzyme which means less GLA, which is important for hair and skin growth.
Better to avoid O6 as much as possible so the need for aspirin becomes obsolete.
Olive leaf extract can be used to lower certain inflammatory prostaglandins with zero effect on GLA, it also doesn’t mess with the urea cycle like aspirin does.

 

[CLASH]

@Beefcake

Acrolein, a product of lipid peroxidation, inhibits glucose and glutamate uptake in primary neuronal cultures - ScienceDirect

Effect of long-term fish oil supplementation on vitamin E status and lipid peroxidation in women. - PubMed - NCBI

Lipid peroxidation products are elevated in fish oil diets even in the presence of added antioxidants. - PubMed - NCBI

It might be more useful to search for MDA, acrolein, or TBARS in pubmed to see possibly detriments of Omega 3. They have been shown to increase lipid peroxidation products significantly, even in the presence of antioxidants. The compounds I listed above are some indicators and direct products of the omega 3 fatty acids. Also check out lipofuscin in pubmed. If your not a fish living in cold water i’d avoid. Btw heres some studies on longevity and PUFA:

https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewconte.../&httpsredir=1&article=2458&context=smhpapers

 

[ShotTrue]

I don't fully understand what you're saying, but yeah inflammation does lower testosterone and lower sperm motility, if that's what you were asking about. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, so if you think that might be wrong and that it is just an assumption on my part, feel free to post cases where inflammation is shown to be a good thing.

BTW, if you are thinking of taking fish oil for the hair benefits, why not just take aspirin? It has the anti-inflammatory effects of fish oil without the carcinogenic properties. And aspirin has done a lot more for my hair than fish oil did way back when I took it. I have several posts about how I completely cured hair loss years ago.

What I meant was you’re stating the sperm/test effects of fish oil or omega 3 was by lowering inflammation, but you’re assuming that’s the mechanism and no proof that inflammation was the cause of lowered test or sperm quality

It’s hard for me to accept aspirin. I know my inflammation in my scalp is from, normally it’s not an issue for me. I appreciate your advice, I may have read what you wrote already. I only mentioned that in the past I saw convincing reason to use it for hair but I won’t

 

[Goobz]

I absolutely hate that a lot of the forum goes into a crying fit defending some abstract thought of Ray's, and not being able to defend it. I haven't seen anyone healthy with low estrogen, but a lot of people loathing it, and aromatase deficiency is classified as a disease.

As you say, I don't recall an explanation of why fish oil suppresses the immune system.
I genuinely hate the hypocrisy of Ray saying to be a self-authortiatian but then this forum worshiping him and disagreeing with things without any proof. Several times Peat himself said they misunderstood what his intention was... It's pathetic

You shouldn't blindly have to agree with every unexplained point of Peat's to be on the forum

+1

I find RPs work very valuable but I also look elsewhere.

 

[Beefcake]

@Beefcake

Acrolein, a product of lipid peroxidation, inhibits glucose and glutamate uptake in primary neuronal cultures - ScienceDirect

Effect of long-term fish oil supplementation on vitamin E status and lipid peroxidation in women. - PubMed - NCBI

Lipid peroxidation products are elevated in fish oil diets even in the presence of added antioxidants. - PubMed - NCBI

It might be more useful to search for MDA, acrolein, or TBARS in pubmed to see possibly detriments of Omega 3. They have been shown to increase lipid peroxidation products significantly, even in the presence of antioxidants. The compounds I listed above are some indicators and direct products of the omega 3 fatty acids. Also check out lipofuscin in pubmed. If your not a fish living in cold water i’d avoid. Btw heres some studies on longevity and PUFA:

https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewconte.../&httpsredir=1&article=2458&context=smhpapers

First studies with more convincing results posted here. But also like to mention if you worry about acrolein then you can abandon smoking asap as thats an even better source of acrolein. The second study uses 1,6 grams of DHA and EPA everyday for quite some time and it’s from supplements aswell. My point is sort of more like @olive said and as @Travis also believes. Fresh fish once in awhile. Just because something is beneficial in small amount does not mean you have to go get super natural doses everyday. I still believe it can be used and beneficial in small amounts. Just like iron is needed in certain amounts but his extremly toxic when you get to much. But your studies has a good point. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I don’t think fatty cold water fish are meant to be eaten.

 

[Jing]

I've always wondered if fish oil is so bad how comes nearly all athletes take fish oil and are healther than most people? When I read weight lifting forums nearly everyone is taking fish oil and they are in better health and shape than most people on this forum? . Now taking rancid fish oil would not be a good idea but if you can find a good quality fish oil that isnt rancid maybe it wouldnt be too bad?

 

[olive]

I've always wondered if fish oil is so bad how comes nearly all athletes take fish oil and are healther than most people? When I read weight lifting forums nearly everyone is taking fish oil and they are in better health and shape than most people on this forum? . Now taking rancid fish oil would not be a good idea but if you can find a good quality fish oil that isnt rancid maybe it wouldnt be too bad?

The body preferentially burns PUFA, especially during exercise. So athletes aren’t likely to store much, if any, of the harmful fatty acids. Usain Bolt is famous for consuming 100s of grams of omega6 fatty acids via McDonald’s chicken nuggets the day of he broke the world record.

 

[Jing]

The body preferentially burns PUFA, especially during exercise. So athletes aren’t likely to store much, if any, of the harmful fatty acids. Usain Bolt is famous for consuming 100s of grams of omega6 fatty acids via McDonald’s chicken nuggets the day of he broke the world record.

So maybe that is the way to take it? It's not the PUFA it's the lack of exercise.