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Olive Oil/coconut Oil With Lemon Empty Stomach

Discussion in 'Digestion' started by topdog82, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. topdog82

    topdog82 Member

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    Hey so I stumbled upon this idea from John Douillard
    Find the Best Herbs for Your Digestive Symptoms | John Douillard's LifeSpa

    he claims that having lemon and olive oil in the morning helps cleanse the gallbladder and liver. I was wondering what the line of thought here was. and more importantly, could I get the same effect with coconut oil in liquid form and lemon first thing in the morning?

    My housemate swears by this method. but I want to know why this allegedly clears the liver and bile ducts etc.
     
  2. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    It's based on liver flushes by hulda clark and andreas moritz, but yours is probably a smaller scale and safer version.

    It won't work with coconut oil, though I can't remember why - sorry!
     
  3. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    I don't think it works with coconut oil. Your body has to sense the olive oil so it pumps a big ammount of bile from your gallbladder. This has some effects :
    - When a large ammount of bile gets pumped out quickly, it is supposed to clear the ducts. That is, mechanically. It will push out small things (crystallized bile, sand, etc) obstructing the ducts.
    - The bile is antimicrobial so large ammounts of it help restore a good microbiome.
     
  4. Terma

    Terma Member

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    There's a ton of crap written on the internet about olives and lemons, but that's not the worst page ever.

    Lemon polyphenols are a PPARalpha agonist, and squalene in olive oil might be as well, which is surprising, but I can't go into that one (I only landed on the latter recently, so I have nothing to support/debunk it). PPARalpha burns through liver fat. On top of that there might be a contribution of high oleic acid and maybe even lemon constituents toward PPARalpha activation through C:16,C18:1-phosphatidylcholine synthesis, though it's not clear how much cellular/liver compartmentalization allows ingested oleic to contribute, and oleic acid is in just about everything. Regardless it does have quite some potential for liver, in addition to squalene being a pro-cholesterol prominent "counter-statin" member of the mevalonate pathway, therefore also related to bile. [PPARalpha can also influence cholesterol through indirect activation of LXR]
     
  5. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    This remedy has been known for centuries, it is folk medicine.
     
  6. Terma

    Terma Member

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    Yeah, but some of the explanations have been debunked or are just absurd. More to the point, I find it doubtful oleic acid is responsible for that much when there's squalene and oleuropein (forgot to write).
     
  7. Fractality

    Fractality Member

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    coconut oil and lemon (citric acid) is still beneficial though. it works like an antibiotic. it might still be beneficial to the liver by reducing endotoxin/bacterial load.
     
  8. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    I am curious: which ones you find absurd?

    I don't think you can explain its effects, at least all of them, just by deconstructing the method to a few chemical compounds using a few pubmed studies.

    The method works, just like ketamine works for depression (just an example) and we don't know why.
     
  9. Terma

    Terma Member

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    All of those links suggests PPARalpha activation, which clears out the liver, clinically, and allows it to flow and indirectly increases LXR (cholesterol efflux, from macrophages/body, i.e. HDL, plus a role in liver that I'm unclear on w.r.t PPARalpha, but is highly suggestive), and that's in addition to the high importance of squalene in endogenous pathways (haidut sells a lanosterol supplement, which is nothing but a squalene product). What better starting point for an explanation or protocol do you want? The only problem with these are dosages and species differences and in vitro, but that's why you stack multiple compounds to increase the odds of activation and if lucky, synergy, while you wait for better research.

    Why stop at this? Combine oleuropein, lemon, squalene with choline + (oral w/meal) uridine, taurine (or TUDCA, for some things), caffeine, and that's a highly promising fatty liver fix and directly and indirectly gallbladder problems. [You must not be deficient in lysine or carnitine, Mg, B3, protein and other things]

    Why compare it to ketamine? It has several candidate explanations, which I last read up to last year, and most likely it's a combination of them (circadian rhythm, HDAC inhibition, BDNF and then the obvious).

    Sorry, I do not feel like spending my time re-finding links to bull**** (maybe start at curezone, this was several years ago when I didn't know better), and now I have to stop posting.

    Just have to point out citric acid is actually fatty acid synthesis-promoting in the regular pathways.
     
  10. cyclops

    cyclops Member

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    Maybe just have the carrot salad in the morning but use olive oil and lemon instead of coconut oil and vinegar.
     
  11. Fractality

    Fractality Member

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    Why is bile needed for olive oil but not coconut oil?
     
  12. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Because coconut oil is composed of MCTs to a large degree and mcts do not need bile for digestion.
     
  13. Henry

    Henry Member

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    Olive oil-lemon flushes are a scam, this has been debunked long ago.

    "Experimentation revealed that mixing equal volumes of oleic acid (the major component of olive oil) and lemon juice produced several semi solid white balls after the addition of a small volume of a potassium hydroxide solution. On air drying at room temperature, these balls became quite solid and hard"
    www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605663738/fulltext
     
  14. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    The flushes absolutely do have a liver clearing effect. With a dietary change to ensure mineral deficiencies are resolved at the same time they'll likely have a longer lasting effect, though what the little balls are I don't know!

    It's possibly the combo and viscosity of the substance that draws things from the liver.

    I have seen one or two people have some really unpleasant side effects though. I think the process can be very taxing on the adrenals (namely the epsom flushing).

    I have done a liver flush without the epsom salts and was fine (i did use cherry juice for malic acid the week before though.

    I think basically if your liver is ****88 due to insulin resistance or other causes (via mineral deficiency for eg) then flushing will only ever be a bandaid.
     
  15. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    I love how we in the forum use medical journals to only reinforce our pre-thought thesis.
    If the study says something we like, we give credit to it.
    If it doesn't, then it is paid by big pharma, has methodology flaws, etc.

    Great.

    The experiment you posted was in vitro. Then if you would have done liver flushes you would know that there are many kind of "stones" that are released during the flush. Most of them are the ones the researchers managed to replicate, the big green ones. Those are probably a product of the mixture of olive oil, citrus fruit, magnesium, biles, etc... and most probably NOT from the liver or liver ducts.

    But there are more. There are white and black solid ones. And sand.
    Sand can also be seen doing coffee enemas which don't use magnesium or olive oil or anything.

    Where do they come from ?

    There's much more to it than what the lancet want to make us believe. And certainly many more factors at play besides Terma's hypothesis of PPARAlpha agonists.

    In Andreas Moritz flush styles, you fast for many hours, empty the bowel, and then do the flush. Then a few days later you take a colonics. There are a lot of anti endotoxin factors at play here : The fast, the bowel cleanse, the massive bile dump, the colonics, the soft diet you have to have before and after the flush.... I think this anti endotoxin regime has a BIG role on its benefits. The low fat diet factors might play a role as well.

    Maybe the fact that you force your body to regenerate all the bile from scratch (nornally it is endogenously reuptaken for reutilization) has some possitive effects also.

    And also, it is very common, it is described thousands of times anecdotally in forums, that after some flushes you will feel worse than before until the next flush. How is that possible if nothing in the liver/gallbladder ducts is being movilized ? There's no other possible explanation I can think of to explain that phenomenon.
     
  16. CLASH

    CLASH Member

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    You dont even need lemon to do this. Just taking a large dose (10-20g) of a long chanin MUFA of SAFA containing fat such as beef tallow, cocoa butter, or olive oil will induce the gallbladder to strongly contract. It will also trigger peristalsis in the intestines, both small and large. The bile, if continually released in response to these fatty acids over time will function as an antibiotic in the small intestine in conjunction with the fats themselves, once they’ve been emulsified. The fats also protect the lining of the small intestine and detoxify endotoxin. Many people have an issue on very low fat diets in the peat sphere, I think this is why. The human diet physiologically seems to be ideal around 40% fat from what I can see.

    EDIT: if eating low fat for extended periods of time, the first few weeks of increasing fat can be very painful as the liver and gallbladder dump bile, among other things. You can definetly get diarrhea and pass gallstones.
     
  17. sunraiser

    sunraiser Member

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    I tend to crave a square of dark chocolate when I wake up a little while before breakfast so perhaps this is an intuitive version of this response.

    I pretty much agree with you on dietary fat content, although I don't believe it should all be saturated and women possibly have a lower need for it (to craving as always, though).

    Your last point on "readapting" to fat highlights the dangers of hyperfocus on negative food responses. Our bodies are adaptive but they also thrive on routine and need time to transition into big changes.

    A similar thing can happen with microbiome adaptation to fibre rich foods in that they'll cause digestive discomfort for a little while after reincluding them.

    Learning to face discomfort or at least patiently identify positives amongst pain is a good skill to practice, imo. Having that patience in a sea of negative or fear provoking info can be such a challenge if you're not braced and completely aware.
     
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