Occasional Boron Supplementation

gabys225

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An anecdote for those who experiment: I take a literally pinch, the dust off my fingers, and put that in juice and consume it. After 2 days of this I get this weird brain fog which isn't really a fog, it's the feeling you get when you take an antihistamine and overslept, feeling a little too awake for the first hours . It's not the worst feeling in the world, but out of fear that I may harm my brain I stop.

After reading about @Nokoni and his great success, I wonder if I am simply experiencing die-off symptoms and carrying a high fungal load.

Has anyone else felt something similar?
 
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Sumbody

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I saw this article over a decade ago, looks like it's been updated. Apparently, there is a difference between boron and boric acid (Borax). Guess which looks safer than salt? ;-)
https://www.health-science-spirit.com/borax.htm

That's a great article! Thanks for posting!

I began taking 1/4 tsp of Borax in a bottle of water, and drank it throughout the day. I did 2-3 weeks in a row, taking the weekends off and I had no ill side effects from it whatsoever. Only positives as the injuries I've had to my wrists felt much better while working hard labor with my hands.

For me it's not something I feel like I need all the time. But doing 1-2 week stints a month or so definitely has its benefits.
 

Dolomite

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I wonder if I am simply experiencing die-off symptoms and carrying a high fungal load.

Has anyone else felt something similar?
The boron really does prevent mycelia development in my experience and it does put a fungus into a stressed state so that stuffiness could be from fungus. I have been using some borax water topically on a patch and it has helped considerably.

I tried borax water internally for a month but it is way too estrogenic for me.
 

Nokoni

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An anecdote for those who experiment: I take a literally pinch, the dust off my fingers, and put that in juice and consume it. After 2 days of this I get this weird brain fog which isn't really a fog, it's the feeling you get when you take an antihistamine and overslept, feeling a little too awake for the first hours . It's not the worst feeling in the world, but out of fear that I may harm my brain I stop.

After reading about @Nokoni and his great success, I wonder if I am simply experiencing die-off symptoms and carrying a high fungal load.

Has anyone else felt something similar?
Any significant effect on fungus seems unlikely with such a small dose. You might even get more boron than that from your diet. Not sure why you're getting such symptoms but it might be best to just skip it, at least for now.
 

Tarmander

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An update on my previous post about kidney values.

After being off boron for a month I redid my kidney tests and my GFR went up to 100 (from 80s)and Creatinine fell below 1 (from 1.1)...

so pretty sure Boron was the culprit

Edit: I will say it took a year for my values to fall in what took a month for them to return...so maybe taking a month off Boron here and there is all that is enough.
 

LLight

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An update on my previous post about kidney values.

After being off boron for a month I redid my kidney tests and my GFR went up to 100 (from 80s)and Creatinine fell below 1 (from 1.1)...

so pretty sure Boron was the culprit

Edit: I will say it took a year for my values to fall in what took a month for them to return...so maybe taking a month off Boron here and there is all that is enough.

I think boron is immunostimulative in the same way that what is done with the Marshall protocol (the patients have to take a drug against hypertension that is called Olmesartan/Benicar which supposedly activate the vitamin D receptor). Here is a commentary of a MD who treated patients with this protocol:

"Severe immunopathology reactions are not a sign that something is going wrong, but only a reflection of the fact that the treatment is actually working too effectively. By sitting down and reading about the MP in depth, they will also develop a greater confidence in the safety of the treatment, so that instead of freaking out when a patient’s kidney function temporarily drops, and often blaming Benicar for the situation, they will realize that decreased kidney function is just a result of immunopathology in the kidneys that can be managed. There is simply no evidence that Benicar can affect kidney function – there are even patients on dialysis that take Benicar. It’s also important to learn how to counsel patients during flares in which their immunopathology may kick in very strongly in order to help them manage their antibiotics and keep the reaction under control."

Just an hypothesis for what you observed.
 
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An anecdote for those who experiment: I take a literally pinch, the dust off my fingers, and put that in juice and consume it. After 2 days of this I get this weird brain fog which isn't really a fog, it's the feeling you get when you take an antihistamine and overslept, feeling a little too awake for the first hours . It's not the worst feeling in the world, but out of fear that I may harm my brain I stop.

After reading about @Nokoni and his great success, I wonder if I am simply experiencing die-off symptoms and carrying a high fungal load.

Has anyone else felt something similar?

I'll have to observe this more closely. Not so far.
 
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I wonder if I’m experiencing die off. I’ve got some sneezes and endotoxin type symptoms and diarrhea. Could be mutaflor too, not sure.
 

gabys225

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Jorge Flechas makes an interesting point about boron in this video:



He mentions that boron helps the hydroxylation of steroids, so more T becomes DHT, and E1 becomes E2 then E3, which is a weaker estrogen.

I think estradiol metabolism into estriol (which is plainly referred to as a weak estrogen on it's wiki page) and more T to DHT conversation is a huge net positive.

I think the research he is presenting safely lays the estrogenic issue to rest.

I've resumed taking boron the last few days, no issues. I think boron and progesterone can be powerfully therapeutic together, given progesterone's action on calcium, and borons affect on calcium and magnesium metabolism.

edit: estrogen issue is addressed at 31:44
 

Inaut

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I’m a boron enthusiast and am not very concerned with the estrogen fear.

Why don’t we ever discuss liver health when it comes to estrogen? I know we do talk liver but maybe it should be a primary focus for minimizing estrogen. Isn’t it responsible for breaking down E? If it’s not working properly, that’s when the machine starts breaking down too...

Rambling from an idiot :)
 

gabys225

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@Inaut, that's very true. Boron being so effective against mycotoxins has to have positive ramifications for liver health.
 

Tarmander

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I think boron is immunostimulative in the same way that what is done with the Marshall protocol (the patients have to take a drug against hypertension that is called Olmesartan/Benicar which supposedly activate the vitamin D receptor). Here is a commentary of a MD who treated patients with this protocol:

"Severe immunopathology reactions are not a sign that something is going wrong, but only a reflection of the fact that the treatment is actually working too effectively. By sitting down and reading about the MP in depth, they will also develop a greater confidence in the safety of the treatment, so that instead of freaking out when a patient’s kidney function temporarily drops, and often blaming Benicar for the situation, they will realize that decreased kidney function is just a result of immunopathology in the kidneys that can be managed. There is simply no evidence that Benicar can affect kidney function – there are even patients on dialysis that take Benicar. It’s also important to learn how to counsel patients during flares in which their immunopathology may kick in very strongly in order to help them manage their antibiotics and keep the reaction under control."

Just an hypothesis for what you observed.
This is really interesting...I have never heard of Boron being compared to the Marshall Protocol. I know Boron increases Vitamin D levels, why do you think they are similar?
 

LLight

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This is really interesting...I have never heard of Boron being compared to the Marshall Protocol. I know Boron increases Vitamin D levels, why do you think they are similar?
According to my understanding, the Marshall Protocol is all about an increase of the immune system response, for example, in his theory, the MProtocol has for consequence the increase in antimicrobial peptide in cells.

It is rather a big speculation from me but it seems like boron is able to stimulate the immune system and increase the production of nitric oxide in macrophages primed by LPS, a process which is thought to be mediated by a transcription factor, NFAT5, which seems to also (in cells of the immune system at least) be related to the production of these antimicrobial peptides:

Putting these studies together, I think we have the beginning of a proof that boron promotes NFAT5 (and that boron could in counterpart be needed for the immune response that is promoted with NFAT5):

Boron Induces Lymphocyte Proliferation and Modulates the Priming Effects of Lipopolysaccharide on Macrophages
"The mediators of inflammation, TNF-α, IL-6, IL-1β and nitric oxide (NO), were measured in culture supernatant of LPS-primed macrophages isolated from borax treated mice."
"Results showed a significant increase in T and B cell populations, as indicated by an increase in CD4 and CD19, but not CD8, cells. Boron further stimulated the secretion of TNF-α, IL-6, IL-1β, NO and the expression of iNOS by the LPS-primed macrophages. The effect was dose dependent and most significant at a dose level of 4.6 mg/kg b. wt."​

Emerging New Role of NFAT5 in Inducible Nitric Oxide Synthase in Response to Hypoxia in Mouse Embryonic Fibroblast Cells - PubMed
"Some evidence indicates that NFAT5 is essential for the expression of iNOS in Toll-like receptor-stimulated macrophages and that iNOS inhibition increases NFAT5 expression in renal ischemia-reperfusion."

"Recent researchers have demonstrated that NFAT5 activation by tonicity-independent, isotonic stimuli is a key regulator of RA pathology. Masuda et al. first identified that NFAT5 mRNA is expressed in the RA synovia, particularly at sites of bone destruction (49)."​

So, boron promotes the expression of iNOS in macrophages stimulated by LPS, while NFAT5 seems to be essential for iNOS expression in them.

Also, NFAT5 seems to be expressed in synovial fluid of RA patients, and boron seems to be curative for RA.

In contrast, NFAT5 seems to upregulate CYP3A4, an enzyme which is involved in the catabolism of vitamin D, while boron could inhibit the 24-hydroxylase enzyme which is also involved in its catabolism.

NFAT5 seems to be related to other features of the immune system (points 2 to 6):

Similarity between the Marshall Protocol and dry fasting/dehydration:

Dry fasting/dehydration could help stimulate the immune system:
  1. Dry fasting/dehydration may induce the secretion of oxytocin and vasopressin, two hormones involved in fluid retention/balance, which also seem to regulate the immune system or even have "antibiotic-like effects".

  2. Dehydration may stimulate the production of the cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) in macrophages. This molecule has antibiotic properties and seems to be able to disrupt biofilms, structures that bacteria produce to escape the immune system.

  3. NFAT5, a protein that tends to be upregulated, among other things, by hyperosmotic stress (that could be elicited by dehydration), seems to be involved in the proper targeting of bacteria by autophagy.

  4. A deficiency of this same protein has been involved in autoimmune diseases (1, 2) which are, according to these publications and the Marshall protocol, nothing more than the consequences of immunodeficiency allowing pathogens to survive.

  5. The NFAT5 protein itself seems to have antiviral properties against Coxsackievirus B3. This virus tries to deactivate the NFAT5 protein. I would not be surprised, knowing the importance of this protein, if other pathogens would try to suppress it too.

  6. NFAT5 (also called TonEBP in the literature) seems to suppress the expression of the HO-1 enzyme in macrophages. HO-1 has a "well-established immunosuppressive activity". Interestingly, HO-1 inhibition could be a potential therapeutic strategy for metabolic disease.
Moreover, following dehydration (in mice, NFAT5 involved again), the CYP3A4 enzyme seems to be upregulated several folds in the liver (1, 2). This enzyme appears to be involved in the catabolism of vitamin D which "has multiple immunosuppressant properties".

____________________

The Marshall Protocol (see this video for an explanation about the theory) seems to be able to help people battle chronic inflammatory diseases, especially the so-called "autoimmune" diseases.

The theory of this professor is that following a first unresolved infection, intracellular pathogens decrease the potency of the immune system, for their own survival, by blocking the vitamin D receptor, such that subsequent infections are not as well dealt with, starting a vicious circle of increasing pathogens number and diversity inside cells and decreasing immune system's efficiency. These chronic infections could maintain chronic inflammation and metabolic abnormalities.

According to him, vitamin D cannot have the status of a vitamin, by definition, because it can be produced by the body and its level is controlled by feedback mechanisms.

The protocol involves:
  1. trying to decrease vitamin D blood levels below 20ng/ml, the 25OHD3 form which "tempers bacterial-induced inflammation by slowing VDR activity", by abstaining from eating food containing vitamin D (especially fortified food or supplements),

  2. taking a drug (Olmesartan) that activates the vitamin D receptor (VDR). The activation of the VDR "affects transcription of at least 913 genes and impacts processes ranging from calcium metabolism to expression of key antimicrobial peptides". These are the same sort of peptides than the CAMP mentioned above,

  3. taking low doses of antibiotics (minocycline) if needed.
One concept he develops is that every immunosuppressant substance (vitamin D, corticosteroids, fish oils, or immunosuppressive drugs) will provide relief in the short term, because it decreases the inflammation, but it will have negative effects in the long term by allowing pathogens to survive and even spread, making the disease worse. Note that autoimmune diseases are often "treated" with such substances.

Fighting these pathogens induces what is called immunopathologies (also known as “Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction”). In short, they are the bad side effects which are due to increased inflammation and fragments of dead pathogens (endotoxins or LPS), but they actually indicate that the immune system is fighting. They can often be interpreted as a flare-up of the disease.
 

Goobz

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Jorge Flechas makes an interesting point about boron in this video:



He mentions that boron helps the hydroxylation of steroids, so more T becomes DHT, and E1 becomes E2 then E3, which is a weaker estrogen.

I think estradiol metabolism into estriol (which is plainly referred to as a weak estrogen on it's wiki page) and more T to DHT conversation is a huge net positive.

I think the research he is presenting safely lays the estrogenic issue to rest.

I've resumed taking boron the last few days, no issues. I think boron and progesterone can be powerfully therapeutic together, given progesterone's action on calcium, and borons affect on calcium and magnesium metabolism.

edit: estrogen issue is addressed at 31:44


Yep we went over this, including this video, either earlier in this thread or in another one. I liked the content of the video, but it can hardly be considered definitive given the that he is:
a) clearly using the Bible / religion as a framework for why boron must be good for you. This would lead to some bias in my opinion.
b) a dentist, not a doctor (!)

More E2 to E3 would be less "estrogenic". But the thing is, E1 is also about ten times weaker at stimulating the estrogen receptors as E2. So converting more E1 to E2 would be very "estrogenic." And from memory there is generally there's much more E1 and E2 in the body. Purely IMO from what I've read, E1 seems to be the form of estrogen I'd like to have least of, so this seems like it would be a good thing.

In any case, I remember Travis' post saying something along the lines of - if it increases all these steroid hormones proportionately (T, DHT, E, etc) then it can't be thought of as estrogenic.
 
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Goobz

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I’m doing something similar. I’ve been using 1/8 tsp dissolved in one liter of distilled water and drinking it over 2 days. I take it 5 days per week and skip the weekend. It feels very positive for my libido and joints.
I take 1/8th tsp of borax, which weighs 530 mg, daily.

Just wondering - do you guys weigh your borax or just eyeball it with the 1/8th of a tsp?

Because I'm planning on doing about half that, and it seems like a 1/16th of a tsp would be far too hard to guestimate!

My borax powder arrived today and I'm planning on doing maybe an 1/8th or a 1/4 into a larger amount of water, and drinking a fraction of that each day. But such tiny amounts seem hard to measure. Or do you weigh it perhaps?
 

Blossom

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Just wondering - do you guys weigh your borax or just eyeball it with the 1/8th of a tsp?

Because I'm planning on doing about half that, and it seems like a 1/16th of a tsp would be far too hard to guestimate!

My borax powder arrived today and I'm planning on doing maybe an 1/8th or a 1/4 into a larger amount of water, and drinking a fraction of that each day. But such tiny amounts seem hard to measure. Or do you weigh it perhaps?
I just use a 1/8 tsp measuring spoon.
 

Goobz

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I just use a 1/8 tsp measuring spoon.

Haha oh man I feel very silly now. I mean I never bake cakes or anything that would use those measuring spoons (I don't think there are any in my house), but still... I clearly need some boron to get my brain working again.

Thanks!
 

Blossom

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Haha oh man I feel very silly now. I mean I never bake cakes or anything that would use those measuring spoons (I don't think there are any in my house), but still... I clearly need some boron to get my brain working again.

Thanks!
No problem! They are very inexpensive to buy at most grocery stores.
 

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