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Not Low Carb, But Lack Of Choline And Methionine, Cause Keto Success

Discussion in 'Discussing Dietary Models' started by Liubo, Nov 17, 2016.

  1. Liubo

    Liubo Member

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    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221287781300063X

    In this study we examined the role of methionine and choline in mediating the metabolic effects of KD. We have found that choline was more effective than methionine in decreasing the liver steatosis of KD-fed mice. On the other hand, methionine supplementation was more effective than choline in restoring weight gain and normalizing the expression of several fatty acid and inflammatory genes in the liver of KD-fed mice. Our results indicate that choline and methionine restriction rather than carbohydrate restriction underlies many of the metabolic effects of KD.
     
  2. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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  3. Broken man

    Broken man Member

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    So Its better to avoid choline? Eggs are bad?
     
  4. Dante

    Dante Member

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    @Liubo , nice study but have some doubts. The title of the thread might be a bit misleading ( it might lead one to think that greatly limiting choline might be good which is not the same thing as the article implies) . The "successes" of the keto diet i saw were weight loss and low blood glucose. It did cause increase in lactate levels ( which i think Ray considers bad). Some points from the articles.
    KD = keto , KDC = keto+choline , KDM = keto + methionine

    - One of the consequences of KD in mice is liver steatosis . Liver histology of KD-fed mice shows a combination macro- and microvesicular steatosis with an apparent improvement in the KDC cohort . Consistent with the histology, triglyceride content of the liver was increased almost 7-fold by KD compared with chow and was significantly decreased (2-fold) by choline supplementation of KD but not by methionine .

    - Expression of several proinflammatory and fibrogenic cytokines, tumor necrosis factor alpha (Tnfα) and transforming growth factor beta (TGFβ), as well as adhesion markers, intercellular cell adhesion molecule (Icam) and vascular cell adhesion molecule (Vcam) were increased by KD, and methionine supplementation abolished or attenuated this increase

    - methionine but not choline significantly increased body weight gain and lean mass of mice on KD. Limiting methionine content of KD contributes to weight loss, increased expression of fatty acid oxidation and inflammatory genes while the low choline contributes to fatty liver.
    Thanks.
     
  5. Kyle M

    Kyle M Member

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    Weird article, how do you even do low choline and methionine on keto? I guess if you don't eat liver or eggs, which a lot of low carb people do eat, you could lower choline, but isn't methionine high in muscle meat? And yeah, how they define "success" is a bit strange too.
     
  6. What-a-Riot

    What-a-Riot Member

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    @Kyle M well at least in that excerpt they never use the word success or even imply that the metabolic effects are positive. closer to the opposite
     
  7. Kyle M

    Kyle M Member

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    It's strange because they point to liver steatosis as something that happens in KD, and everyone should know choline reduces that regardless of diet. But then they say methionine is more effective than choline in upregulating inflammatory genes and causing weight gain, as if those outcomes (more inflammation, less steatosis) are similar in terms of the direction of health.
     
  8. What-a-Riot

    What-a-Riot Member

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    @Kyle M it doesnt say it upregulated inflammatory genes, it says normalized. see dash 2 of Dante's post above. id read it that way first as well
     
  9. OP
    Liubo

    Liubo Member

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    @Dante good point, also blood sugar lowering would not be ideal in Peat's eyes, right? Some of those results are not very good at all.

    @Kyle M it is odd that methionine and chloline restriction would be studies in the context of a diet that is based on animal foods.
     
  10. Kyle M

    Kyle M Member

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    Right, it is a weird summary. I should read the whole thing. The term normalizing, when not followed by what it's normalizing towards, begs the question imo.
     
  11. Kyle M

    Kyle M Member

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    Right, what are they feeding these mice, tons of veggie protein and MCT oil? They should realize 99% of keto dieters are eating primarily animal foods chock full of methionine and usually a decent amount of choline.
     
  12. Peater Piper

    Peater Piper Member

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    A ketogenic diet is really a very high fat, carb restricted diet. Protein is probably at or under 100 grams usually. Obviously meat is often a cornerstone, but not always. Dairy contains as much methionine in proportion to total protein. I'm not sure humans respond to ketogenic diets in quite the same way as mice, because there's people that have been ketogenic for a decade or more without their livers going to hell.

    I'm still not entirely sure what to make of choline. Chris Masterjohn thinks it's very important for preventing NAFLD, especially in conjunction with high fat, especially saturated fat, diets. But it's also known to be associated with metabolic syndrome. I don't know if it's the transport of fatty acids from the liver to elsewhere that causes metabolic syndrome, or if it's a separate mechanism.
     
  13. Kyle M

    Kyle M Member

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    I'd be willing to bet that the types of fatty acids complexing with choline into phosphatidyl-whatevers is a big determinant of outcome, as well as the circulating endotoxin status.
     
  14. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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    yes kyle is right.

    maybe they used purified food , but people on keto diet eat meat and any other protein source, all have decent methionine.so it is weird in that regard!
     
  15. OP
    Liubo

    Liubo Member

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    Along with methionine, choline has a lot of influence on how the oleic desaturase gene gets expressed in the mouse. https://air.unimi.it/retrieve/handle/2434/28053/258241/rizki.pdf

    Mice have the same desaturase genes people do. And reducing these genes' activity seems to do a lot of good, like stopping tumors. But it isn't easy to just lower choline, maybe there is a better way to this goal.
     
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