Not Consumed Sugar In 20 Months / Discovered Peat

[DannyIrons™]

So I'm quite new to Peat's work and was wondering if anyone could just point me in the direction to how to approach getting started on Peat's recommendations so to speak. I've posted once before about my weight but didn't really taking notice of any of Peat's work.

In order of main issues;

1. - Sleep (non-restful highly dreamy sleep since a young boy)
2. - Gut issues
3. - Weight Loss

So about 20 months ago my stool test results revealed an extremely high proliferation of something called Enterobacter Cloacae Complex, I also found low lactobaccilus levels and butyrate acid.

I was given a specific protocol, and this basically consisted of eliminating all forms of sugar as dysbiotic feeds off this, apparently. Well, I probably lost around 2 stone in the space of a couple of months. Up until now I'm still 'sugar-free' and managed to have gained around half a stone even on my restricted diet.

To be honest, it's been so ingrained in me that sugar is bad and is going to give me stomach problems that I have developed a fear of consuming anything with high sugar, especially white granulated sugar. But reading the content on this site it seems that I may have had it wrong all along. What do I do?

 

[SOMO]

Go slow while reintroducing sugar.

I was in a similar boat to you - I avoided all carbohydrates for a long time, sugar, starch and even fruit.

I felt fine for a long time and could have continued eating low-carb for the rest of my life. I don't think it's that difficult to maintain a low-carb diet, but I simply wanted to reintroduce more foods into my diet.

I was on Keto several years ago, felt good and then eventually transitioned to a more carb-forgiving Paleo/Primal diet with sweet potatoes, plenty of veggies, plenty of avocados, and lots of whole fat dairy (greek yogurt, sour cream, etc.)
Several years later, I gained some extra weight (laziness + overeating) and then went back to Keto (specifically to lose extra fat + mental benefits.)

Dysbiosis can occur in the small intestine or the large intestine. 90% of digestion happens in the small intestine, but only a small portion of people with gut issues have small intestinal issues. And there are reliable tests for SIBO that you can ask your doctor for and are non-invasive (hydrogen/lactulose breath test.)

And regardless of what Peatarians or Vegans say, fructose is still malabsorbed by many people. 25g of fructose is enough to give many people diarrhea if their gut health and metabolism is lacking. When I reintroduced fruit into my diet (several oranges and even strawberries) I got liquid stool and I never had any significant GI issues, even when I was eating a vegan diet with soy burgers and lots of whole grain wheat.

I think you should start with something easy to digest and low-toxin. Before you completely overhaul your diet, just try introducing honey or some seedless fruit. (Try something like apples, oranges, pears, peaches, etc. where the seeds are easy to pick out or non-existent. Seeds can cause GI issues because of the fiber, which bacteria ferment and can turn into toxic byproducts.)
You could even try eating some well-cooked potatoes (you don't want stale or day-old potatoes) or white rice - even people with IBS often fall back on these bland starchy foods because they're easy to digest when cooked long enough.

Low-carb diets are great for #3 on your list, but not so great for #1 or #2.

 

[DannyIrons™]

I also suffered with cold extremities a lot, but I've been practising Buteyko for a few months, and it's really made a difference to my cold hands/feet.

Yeah I feel very sensitive to most foods in all honesty, a lot of fruits with seeds like you say, actually make my lips/throat itch sometimes and also I suffer from back acne, which was never really a massive problem but the last year or so it's become quite horrendous. To be honest, I don't feel in a good way at all, my joints always ache and click, my bones and muscles feel weak. My sleep is awful every night. I could go on and on..

I do eat and enjoy potatoes, I've been eating brown rice with tuna for lunch nearly everyday the past few months, and after reading this site it seems like that wasn't the smartest thing to do. I feel like I'm constantly playing a game with food and it's exhausting.

Would OJ be a good intro or would that be too much to begin with?

 

[SOMO]

I also suffered with cold extremities a lot, but I've been practising Buteyko for a few months, and it's really made a difference to my cold hands/feet.

Yeah I feel very sensitive to most foods in all honesty, a lot of fruits with seeds like you say, actually make my lips/throat itch sometimes and also I suffer from back acne, which was never really a massive problem but the last year or so it's become quite horrendous. To be honest, I don't feel in a good way at all, my joints always ache and click, my bones and muscles feel weak. My sleep is awful every night. I could go on and on..

I do eat and enjoy potatoes, I've been eating brown rice with tuna for lunch nearly everyday the past few months, and after reading this site it seems like that wasn't the smartest thing to do. I feel like I'm constantly playing a game with food and it's exhausting.

Would OJ be a good intro or would that be too much to begin with?

OJ:
If it's freshly squeezed OJ, that's a good choice.
I've personally drank regular cheap Tropicana without any issues, but many people on this forum notice a difference between bottled juices and juice they squeeze at home.
Unfortunately a lot of "fresh squeezed" or "tree to bottle" orange juices at the grocery or health foods store do not portray their product accurately. There are things used in the orange juice industry called "flavor packs" that are commonly added to orange juice to alter taste, texture and shelf life. A lot of these flavor packs contain essential oils (like the kind you would put into an aromatherapy diffuser) and these volatile essential oils are often allergenic or damage mucous membranes. Since you say you have gut issues, I'd just juice your own oranges.

Brown Rice:
In many asian countries, brown rice isn't eaten directly because it goes rancid relatively quick and many asian households buy rice in bulk (huge 20 pound bags) so it will likely start to spoil before you could finish all the rice. In general, whole grains are slightly irritating to the gut, more so in people with digestive/intestinal issues like IBS/Crohn's Disease/Celiac. If you're buying small quantities of brown rice and eating it fresh (not reheating leftovers for example) it's still a healthy food and doesn't cause issues for most people. To clarify, brown rice is NOT an unhealthy food, but it has a short shelf-life (so does milk and fruit obviously and many people here consume those.)

Acne:
I'm acne prone and introducing sugar in the form of honey or fruit did not give me acne, but I know wheat still gives me acne, so whatever gut issues I had in the past are still not 100% healed.

You can also use aspirin to wash your body/face with and that helps the skin work better on the surface, but as you probably realize acne is mostly an internal issue. Washing/exfoliating your back with hard scrubs or even a rough towel is probably a good idea because a huge overlooked part of acne formation is improper skin shedding. Aspirin exfoliates the skin chemically, but it does more or less the same thing as scrubbing and makes it less inflamed.

Sleep:
I'm pretty confident once you reintroduce more carbs into your diet, sleep will improve. A late night protein snack (milk, yogurt or cheese) is probably a good idea often times.

Weight Loss:
Regarding weight loss - it's harder to lose weight when your metabolism is slow or damaged. And unfortunately too much restriction in the form of fasting or lowering carbs slows the metabolism down.

Sometimes it's better to improve the metabolism today and lose weight tomorrow.
Unless you've got more than 25 pounds to lose, I think focusing on metabolism improvement and avoiding anti-thyroid foods might be prudent. Even in Paleo or mainstream circles, it's universally agreed that losing weight too quickly is bad and often the person gains it back.

 

[DannyIrons™]

I'll probably buy Tropicana to begin with as well, I'll start off with a glass in the morning and see how it goes!

To be honest, brown rice bores the hell out of me, but it seemed like the only thing I could consume in an office lunch because wheat also gives me issues, oily skin/painful fingers joints, so I'll happily ditch that one for a while.

I have the opposite problem with weight! I weighed from 11 stone down to a worrying 9 stone. I've managed to get to 9st 8 but I am very nervous of losing even a pound at the moment.

With the sleep, I think I read somewhere that the poor REM sleep could be due to high serotonin, as well as high cortisol which would increase breathing due to a stress response and then losing CO2 via hyperventilation (this was actually the reason I got into Buteyko initially), or something along those lines. Breathing volume has reduced significantly during rest and throughout the day, but at night and especially early hours of the morning I breath very heavy according to my sleep app recordings, which is messing me up and making me desperate for the toilet upon wakening.

 

[Birdie]

Maybe look at the Inclined Bed Therapy forums here.
As you know, when you increase your metabolism with all the Peat advice, that should lower serotonin and cortisol.

As far as the white sugar goes, I've seen Peat recommend fruit over it, saying plain sugar is ok when fruit isn't available.
But he uses sugar in his coffee and he not only eats ice cream but has given out his own recipe for making it.

I was sugar free (almost) for many years before finding Ray Peat. Had to start with only 1/4 teaspoon in my coffee and hated it.
Now love it and think it's been a great help with my metabolism and well being. It's an adventure.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I'm going to have to vote no on the brown-rice. It is okay in moderation, but if you are going to consume rice as a staple starch then it is less desirable than white rice or parboiled rice. The oil in brown rice left from the bran is a 5-ar antagonist. By consuming brown rice you will be taking in around 1 gram of extra PUFA per serving, which adds up if you eat rice like I do ( I sometimes average 3 cups a day). The extra fiber with the starch makes it very pro-endotoxin based off of RP's work. It also costs more than other rice, ironic. Also, yes it can go rancid very easily, also it has more phytic acid (anti-nutrient), will act to lower the calcium to phosphate ratio more than other rice, and it is high in manganese (manganese in excess will suppress dopamine and has been shown to cause parkinson's like symptoms). I took manganese for a while, I was trying to see if it would help with some areas where my joint cartilage was compromised, it never seemed to help, I threw it out once I read how it screws up dopamine, I was in a depressed state and was looking up what every single supplement I was on did to dopamine, I felt MUCH better after going off it. I was taking only 7 mg a day in the form of manganese amino acid chelate, but it was the only thing I changed around that time and within weeks on it I felt like total ***t. I get that same feeling when I eat excessive whole grains (all high in manganese).

@DannyIrons™ for sleep, I have had luck with any of the following before bed: Magnesium Glycinate, low dose Lithium, Niacinamide, Zinc, Lysine, Chamomile. Forcing myself to bright light exposure for a minimum 30 minutes a day (preferably at the start of the day). All of the red-light, completely black room, perfect bed sleep hygiene stuff used to work great on me and then stopped working eventually as my stress levels rose.

As for gut health - this really does it for me: SIBO And Intestinal Infection

 

[TheBeard]

So I'm quite new to Peat's work and was wondering if anyone could just point me in the direction to how to approach getting started on Peat's recommendations so to speak. I've posted once before about my weight but didn't really taking notice of any of Peat's work.

In order of main issues;

1. - Sleep (non-restful highly dreamy sleep since a young boy)
2. - Gut issues
3. - Weight Loss

So about 20 months ago my stool test results revealed an extremely high proliferation of something called Enterobacter Cloacae Complex, I also found low lactobaccilus levels and butyrate acid.

I was given a specific protocol, and this basically consisted of eliminating all forms of sugar as dysbiotic feeds off this, apparently. Well, I probably lost around 2 stone in the space of a couple of months. Up until now I'm still 'sugar-free' and managed to have gained around half a stone even on my restricted diet.

To be honest, it's been so ingrained in me that sugar is bad and is going to give me stomach problems that I have developed a fear of consuming anything with high sugar, especially white granulated sugar. But reading the content on this site it seems that I may have had it wrong all along. What do I do?

Your metabolism has probably become sluggish as a result of such a long paleo period.

I think most of the issues you described will go away as soon as you heighten your metabolism and your body temperature.

First things first: make sure you get plenty of sun exposure. Vitamin D is essential for good gut function.

Supplement with T3. No need for blood tests here, everyone is deficient in Thyroid hormone.

1L of fresh OJ per day
1L at least of skim milk per day. I like Suncoast milk which is 0% fat with added sugar and calcium.

Ox tail and bone broth.

Start with 1 tblspoon of raw sugar per meal

Lots of gummy bears throughout the day.

Canned oysters.


It takes a drastic peaty change for you to be back on track, but I’m confident within a few weeks you’ll be part of us vibrant peatarians

 

[DannyIrons™]

Cheers for all the comments guys, it's a big help.

@TheBeard where would be the best place to source T3 in your opinion? Looking at the threads it doesn't seem like many people agree on any one product?

Is there any other starting supplements I should be taking, I don't want to go overboard to begin with but I have ordered RP's Progest-E as it seems like that may be a fundamental supplement to get started on. Below are my testosterone results about 4 years ago, I've not had a recent test but I can't imagine much has changed. it may sound silly but I've never really felt that masculine despite working out, even though I struggle with weight/muscle gain but I've always suspected that I've struggled with testosterone and GH. Apparently my GP thinks these numbers are normal for well, a 22 year old male at the time.

Around 297 ng/dL

 

[TheBeard]

Cheers for all the comments guys, it's a big help.

@TheBeard where would be the best place to source T3 in your opinion? Looking at the threads it doesn't seem like many people agree on any one product?

Is there any other starting supplements I should be taking, I don't want to go overboard to begin with but I have ordered RP's Progest-E as it seems like that may be a fundamental supplement to get started on. Below are my testosterone results about 4 years ago, I've not had a recent test but I can't imagine much has changed. it may sound silly but I've never really felt that masculine despite working out, even though I struggle with weight/muscle gain but I've always suspected that I've struggled with testosterone and GH. Apparently my GP thinks these numbers are normal for well, a 22 year old male at the time.

Around 297 ng/dL
View attachment 9365

Tiromel.net is a good place to shop for thyroid hormone.

Your testosterone is low.

Are you taking B vitamins, Taurine, Zinc?

 

[tara]

Hi,
I'm not an expert, and your own situation is individual, so you'll have to watch how changes you make affect you personally.
You might want to make changes gradually.

So I'm quite new to Peat's work and was wondering if anyone could just point me in the direction to how to approach getting started on Peat's recommendations so to speak.

Where to start depends on where you are at now.
There are many different interpretations and ways to apply Peat's ideas, so reading and listening to him yourself can help figure out what is from him and what is everyone else's additions and biases, and what makes sense to you to try in your situation.

What are you eating these days?
Have you run it through cronometer or similar to see how it looks in terms of minerals, and vitamins etc? Getting good amounts of the alkaline minerals calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium?

WRT sugar, I'd suggest mainly going for sugar in foods rather than large amounts of refined sugars. The minerals etc in fruits are important for being able to use the sugars well.

I'm not familiar with the specifics of the microbiota you describe, and their preferred food. There are some threads with related discussion. Do you know what foods are favoured by the microbes you'd rather have more of?

Depending on which foods work for you and your gut and metabolism, you may be able to increase the calorie-density of your food and overall calorie consumption. Peat tends to favour reducing the load of excess gram negative bacteria and resultant excess endotoxins with tactics that include: daily raw carrot salad, made a bit more effective with a little oil and vinegar, or cooked bamboo shoots. Saturated fats tend to be somewhat discouraging to them. Occasional use of activate charcoal can mop up a bit more. Keeping things moving is important. A little aged cascara sagrada is one way to deal with constipation, if needed, and it does it in ways that ten to reduce gut inflammation rather than just stimulate peristalsis.

... which would increase breathing due to a stress response and then losing CO2 via hyperventilation (this was actually the reason I got into Buteyko initially), or something along those lines. Breathing volume has reduced significantly during rest and throughout the day, but at night and especially early hours of the morning I breath very heavy according to my sleep app recordings, which is messing me up and making me ...

Is the sleepQ+ still in place to keep your mouth shut all night?
In the interests of brainstorming, rather than actual advice, if you already have your mouth shut, and are eating enough, and getting alkaline minerals, and not freezing/overheating in bed etc, then I wonder whether there would be anything to gain from playing with posture or other tactics to help reduce chest expansion. Are you sleeping on your side? Ever tried a chest strap?

Supplement with T3. No need for blood tests here, everyone is deficient in Thyroid hormone.

I disagree with this. (The other advice may work well, if it agrees with Danny.)
I expect it is pretty common for people to be somewhat low metabolism. But I think there are a few people who are genuinely hyperthyroid, and for whom supplementing T3 could potentially be harmful or dangerous. There could also be a larger number of others for whom the thyroid hormones are reasonably well self-regulated, and for whom supplementation would be more disruptive than helpful.
I am not an expert, so don't take anything I say as medical advice. But I'd tend to favour reading up on how thyroid hormones work, and becoming familiar with monitoring your own signs and symptoms, so that you have real data to assess whether it might be useful, and what effects changes you make are having. Meanwhile, make sure you have generous nutrition happening - you need nutrition in place if you are going to supplement thyroid safely anyway. And if you then think it's a good idea to try it, be cautious (ie small and slow).
In particular, if you are having trouble maintaining your weight, unless you figure out what is happening, one risk is that more T3 could result in more stress and catabolism from increased energy deficit.

Would OJ be a good intro or would that be too much to begin with?

You could try some and see how you feel. A glass, once or twice a day for starters, and adjust from there - more if it seems to do you good. It's got some good minerals in it. If it doesn't agree with you, you could try other juices or whole fruits too.

 

[Birdie]

On the oj, I had to start with just a little oj in a glass of fizzy water.
In the beginning, straight oj gave me the jitters.

I had been off sugar for so long that I had to adjust slowly.
But, my husband had always drunk it every morning.
We both drink it at breakfast now.

And apple juice and coke later. But, it took me months to be able to handle oj or apple juice alone.
Fruit was available, so used melons for that time.

 

[Birdie]

Cheers for all the comments guys, it's a big help.

@TheBeard where would be the best place to source T3 in your opinion? Looking at the threads it doesn't seem like many people agree on any one product?

Is there any other starting supplements I should be taking, I don't want to go overboard to begin with but I have ordered RP's Progest-E as it seems like that may be a fundamental supplement to get started on. Below are my testosterone results about 4 years ago, I've not had a recent test but I can't imagine much has changed. it may sound silly but I've never really felt that masculine despite working out, even though I struggle with weight/muscle gain but I've always suspected that I've struggled with testosterone and GH. Apparently my GP thinks these numbers are normal for well, a 22 year old male at the time.

Around 297 ng/dL
View attachment 9365

So, RP recommends Cynomel for T3. But not everybody needs it. Ray’s articles on Thyroid can help you decide. And there are some threads about guys feeling more masculine after following Peat for a while. Interesting about avoiding hidden estrogens.

 

[TheBeard]

So, RP recommends Cynomel for T3. But not everybody needs it. Ray’s articles on Thyroid can help you decide. And there are some threads about guys feeling more masculine after following Peat for a while. Interesting about avoiding hidden estrogens.

I bet the diabetes and candida flare up you get from all that sugar must make you feel like a hell of a man!

 

[DannyIrons™]

@TheBeard I'm not really taking many supplements at the moment, I find that I tend to evaluate their effects too much, become over-obsessive and that in turn tends to compound my stress.

I'm trying to build a solid foundation of Peat's dietary recommendations and then work up from there, I have ordered some Cascara Sagrada as Tara has mentioned, as I really need to try and focus on fixing my gut health for sure. I've also bought Progest-E, and just going to see how things go from there too, and add/subtract along the way.

@tara I do still use SleepQ+ and it works well, but something is causing me to hyperventilate in my sleep (it's still possible to hyperventilate through the nose), and I've been trying to figure out for years why I suffer from poor quality sleep. The more vivid the dreams the less restful the sleep is, morning sleep is particularly un-restful for me and I know that is more REM sleep, so there's a definite link. I've never found something that even mildly helped else I'd be using it now. My brain just seems to be on 100mph in my sleep, it's made my eyes look very worn/tired/dark for a few years now. I think inclined bed therapy may help as well as some postural changes, but I can't correlate the cause to anything and can't imagine that would be the main cause. Now and again I have to use the restroom at work to nap for a few minutes, I just struggle to keep my eyes open.

@Birdie thanks, I think I do have to be careful with OJ, I tend to be quite reactive to fruits in general, I seem to get on with coke quite well though. I'll continue to have the OJ in small amounts and build it up.