No PUFA No Cancer? Not Backed By Study Ray Cites

[natedawggh]

He references this study because they didn't know about B vitamins, and a later study that showed that the mortality was caused by a lack of B vitamins, which are fat soluble, and not the absence of PUFAs, and this study clearly shows that the absence of PUFAs caused the transplanted cancer to shrink during the course of the study in the mice without lipids. The mice with PUFAs didn't die because they had B vitamins through the PUFAs,but none of them had a reduction of tumors and would have died from cancer, at a later date. If the mice had had B vitamins and the study had gone long enough, not only would there have been no increase or spontaneous cancer, but they probably would have cured themselves.

http://peatarian.com/49034/critical-review-series-cancer-found-diets-incorrect-citation

What do you think of it? I'm also a native German speaker and read the study now several times and indeed Ray's claim about fat-free diets preventing "spontaneous development of cancer" (which he clearly bases on this study from 1927) seems a bit misleading to say at least.

Also slightly disturbing:

mice on the lipidfree diet (even without getting injected with cancer) had a increased mortality and died already after around 3 weeks. On the next morning, those mice were found without brains, as it was eaten by their "lipidhungry comrade"

 

[tara]

I think B vitamins are water soluble. I don't have any comment on what that means for interpreting the study.

 

[natedawggh]

Oh yes you're correct. I had remembered reading this in the article about Fats, and just assumed they were fat soluble... Peat also talks about other deficiencies in the diet that weren't known to the researchers.

"Over the last thirty years I have asked several prominent oil researchers what the evidence is that there is such a thing as an “essential fatty acid.” One professor cited a single publication about a solitary sick person who recovered from some sickness after being given some unsaturated fat. (If he had known of any better evidence, wouldn't he have mentioned it?) The others (if they answered at all) cited “Burr and Burr, 1929.” The surprising thing about that answer is that these people can consider any nutritional research from 1929 to be definitive. It's very much like quoting a 1929 opinion of a physicist regarding the procedure for making a hydrogen bomb. What was known about nutrition in 1929? Most of the B vitamins weren't even suspected, and it had been only two or three years since “vitamin B” had been subdivided into two factors, the “antineuritic factor,” B1, and the “growth factor,” B2. Burr had no way of really understanding what deficiencies or toxicities were present in his experimental diet."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml

 

[burtlancast]

I'm unearthing this thread because of Amazionac's transcript of Ray's interview on Cholesterol and saturated fats ( viewtopic.php?f=73&t=6093), adding some interesting points to the subject of fat-free diets and cancer:

Apparently, eating saturated fats in your diet induces the same anti-cancer effects of a fat-free diet, because it reduces the % of PUFAS in relation to saturated fats.

JR: Should, yes or no, a person live on a fat-free diet ( because the body would be working more efficiently) ? Or should people simply increase their saturated fats intake ?

RP: Yeah (the latter), largely because of the effect on the taste system, and the intestine reflexes; it helps to handle the other foods efficiently, and to make the whole body recognize that it's being fed properly. So it's part of the reflex nervous system that guides eating. And it helps to satisfy the appetite, so people feel more satisfied when they had fats, especially saturated fats. In the experiments with rats (they used a purified diet), when saturated fats where added, they had similar cancer free results; it's the very small amount of unsaturated fat that is responsible for the stress and cancer production. The equivalent of just about a teaspoonful of unsaturated fat per day is enough to show a threshold increase in the incidence of cancer. When we eat natural foods, where're always getting some of the unsaturated fats. On a normal diet it's hard to get down to that threshold of about 4g of fat per day. It's hard even eating coconut oil and butter fat, and beef fat, and so on ( they only have about 2% of unsaturated fats). So, besides eating the most saturated type of fats, that’s one of the arguments for using carbohydrates as a major part of your energy supply. Because if we have some extra carbohydrates more than we need to burn at the moment, they'll turn into saturated fats and extend the proportions. So that in effect you can lower the unsaturated proportion below the threshold of carcinogenic fats.

 

[narouz]

I'm unearthing this thread because of Amazionac's transcript of Ray's interview on Cholesterol and saturated fats ( viewtopic.php?f=73&t=6093), adding some interesting points to the subject of fat-free diets and cancer:

Apparently, eating saturated fats in your diet induces the same anti-cancer effects of a fat-free diet, because it reduces the % of PUFAS in relation to saturated fats.

JR: Should, yes or no, a person live on a fat-free diet ( because the body would be working more efficiently) ? Or should people simply increase their saturated fats intake ?

RP: Yeah (the latter), largely because of the effect on the taste system, and the intestine reflexes; it helps to handle the other foods efficiently, and to make the whole body recognize that it's being fed properly. So it's part of the reflex nervous system that guides eating. And it helps to satisfy the appetite, so people feel more satisfied when they had fats, especially saturated fats. In the experiments with rats (they used a purified diet), when saturated fats where added, they had similar cancer free results; it's the very small amount of unsaturated fat that is responsible for the stress and cancer production. The equivalent of just about a teaspoonful of unsaturated fat per day is enough to show a threshold increase in the incidence of cancer. When we eat natural foods, where're always getting some of the unsaturated fats. On a normal diet it's hard to get down to that threshold of about 4g of fat per day. It's hard even eating coconut oil and butter fat, and beef fat, and so on ( they only have about 2% of unsaturated fats). So, besides eating the most saturated type of fats, that’s one of the arguments for using carbohydrates as a major part of your energy supply. Because if we have some extra carbohydrates more than we need to burn at the moment, they'll turn into saturated fats and extend the proportions. So that in effect you can lower the unsaturated proportion below the threshold of carcinogenic fats.

Hmmm...
gonna have to let that sit in my brain a while to digest.

(Of topic, but:
kinda weird that JR would inquisitorially ask Peat, "yes or no" Wtf)

Looking at one aspect then
it seems it's good to eat some saturated fat
because it is proportion saturated:unsaturated that is crucial,
not absolute amount of PUFA.

Still kinda confusing to me though
because I wouldn't think one should approach consumption of fat like:
I'll just have PUFA daily but I'll make sure to eat more saturated fat along with it.

My brain hasn't awoken fully.

 

[jyb]

My brain hasn't awoken fully.

Take it easy

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'll just have PUFA daily but I'll make sure to eat more saturated fat along with it.

You can only do that, the displacement game, to a certain extent with normal foods which all have a certain percentage of PUFA. It would correctly be executed with something like hydrogenated coconut oil, in which case, however, you would have to ask yourself is it worth it to go look for something so exotic just so I can then eat a half dozen eggs per day?

 

[narouz]

My brain hasn't awoken fully.

Take it easy

Yeah, posting without brain fully awake
could be injurious to my fellow forum members. :)

I think I just concocted this in my imagination,
but somewhere I got this notion that consuming saturated fat could be helpful
because it sortuv rinses out the PUFA.
Like with changing the oil in one's car.
Let's say you put the wrong kind of oil in there.
To get it out,
you could put the correct oil in,
let it run and mix with the bad oil,
drain and refill with correct oil.

Maybe if we consume some saturated fats
they get into the tissue with the stored PUFA,
mix with it,
and help remove it...?

Okay, I'm going back to sleep.

 

[narouz]

I'll just have PUFA daily but I'll make sure to eat more saturated fat along with it.

You can only do that, the displacement game, to a certain extent with normal foods which all have a certain percentage of PUFA. It would correctly be executed with something like hydrogenated coconut oil, in which case, however, you would have to ask yourself is it worth it to go look for something so exotic just so I can then eat a half dozen eggs per day?

Yeah.
And it seems like it just doesn't make sense to think of it only as a proportional matter
because, as I understand it,
PUFA is preferentially stored.

Now, you could say:
well, that's okay because if it's stored it isn't dangerous.
But...then why are most of us working toward decreasing our stored PUFA load
over that sortuv magical 4 year timeline?

It would seem that stored PUFA is not a good thing,
and playing the proportion game daily doesn't answer to that problem...?

 

[tara]

I think I just concocted this in my imagination,
but somewhere I got this notion that consuming saturated fat could be helpful
because it sortuv rinses out the PUFA.
Like with changing the oil in one's car.
Let's say you put the wrong kind of oil in there.
To get it out,
you could put the correct oil in,
let it run and mix with the bad oil,
drain and refill with correct oil.

Not just your imagination. I'm fairly sure Peat has said that eating saturated fat can dilute and displace the unsaturated fats, and that is why it can be helpful. I think, but I'm not sure, that he was referring to PUFAs in circulation and available for harmful interactions, as opposed to getting into storage and diluting the PUFAs there.
Since it is practically impossible to eat food and avoid PUFAs altogether, I think he's suggested eating a little SFA can improve the ratio, which I'm fairly sure he has said is helpful.

I don't have a way to get PUFAs as low as I want and still get enough protein. I'm still having trouble with milk and homemade cheese (unfortunately, because I love both). I happily eat some gelatine, and some low fat fish, but also eat eggs, meat, shellfish, liver. I eat a little coconut oil when frying and at random other times in the hope that it will have this diluting effect (and I like it, too, which may mean something). I haven't found hydrogenated coconut oil available here yet, but if I find some I'll give it a go.
Other people may make other trade-offs.

 

[schultz]

If I was eating a lot of coconut oil, I'd consider getting the hydrogenated, but I eat a tablespoon or less of the stuff a day (just in cooking). A lot of trouble just to drop my PUFA by 0.2g. If you're eating 5 TBSP a day it's a full gram though.

I was considering going on a very low PUFA diet for a month, or so, to see if anything noticeable happens. This is what I'd do...

16 cups of skim milk, 1 oz beef liver, 1 TBSP Hydrogenated CO (for the liver fat solubles), 150g Orange Juice concentrate (it seems to have lower PUFA than "not from concentrate"), 42 tsp sugar, 18 "cups" of coffee (180g of beans).

Anybody wanna try it with me?

 

[Such_Saturation]

If I was eating a lot of coconut oil, I'd consider getting the hydrogenated, but I eat a tablespoon or less of the stuff a day (just in cooking). A lot of trouble just to drop my PUFA by 0.2g. If you're eating 5 TBSP a day it's a full gram though.

I was considering going on a very low PUFA diet for a month, or so, to see if anything noticeable happens. This is what I'd do...

16 cups of skim milk, 1 oz beef liver, 1 TBSP Hydrogenated CO (for the liver fat solubles), 150g Orange Juice concentrate (it seems to have lower PUFA than "not from concentrate"), 42 tsp sugar, 18 "cups" of coffee (180g of beans).

Anybody wanna try it with me?

I would but the only skim I can find is UHT crap

 

[Philomath]

I'll just have PUFA daily but I'll make sure to eat more saturated fat along with it.

You can only do that, the displacement game, to a certain extent with normal foods which all have a certain percentage of PUFA. It would correctly be executed with something like hydrogenated coconut oil, in which case, however, you would have to ask yourself is it worth it to go look for something so exotic just so I can then eat a half dozen eggs per day?

I understand that hydrogenation reduces the PUFA content thereby making hydrogenated coconut oil a superior form of saturated fat. It may be difficult for some people to get but there's a food and soap oil supplier close to me that has it. Does this appear to be worth investigating?

Coconut Oil, 92 Degree, White, Hydro ID # 56007SC ($2.444/lb.)
7 lb. Plastic Bottle Food Grade Oil - Base Oil - Produces fluffy lather
$15.71 Qty: 1

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'll just have PUFA daily but I'll make sure to eat more saturated fat along with it.

You can only do that, the displacement game, to a certain extent with normal foods which all have a certain percentage of PUFA. It would correctly be executed with something like hydrogenated coconut oil, in which case, however, you would have to ask yourself is it worth it to go look for something so exotic just so I can then eat a half dozen eggs per day?

I understand that hydrogenation reduces the PUFA content thereby making hydrogenated coconut oil a superior form of saturated fat. It may be difficult for some people to get but there's a food and soap oil supplier close to me that has it. Does this appear to be worth investigating?

Coconut Oil, 92 Degree, White, Hydro ID # 56007SC ($2.444/lb.)
7 lb. Plastic Bottle Food Grade Oil - Base Oil - Produces fluffy lather
$15.71 Qty: 1

It even costs half of the normal one I can find, I'd go for it!

 

[Lin]

Okay, please excuse my simplistic thinking, but... Doesn't the hydrogenation process produce trans fats? Aren't trans-fats supposed to be bad?

 

[schultz]

Okay, please excuse my simplistic thinking, but... Doesn't the hydrogenation process produce trans fats? Aren't trans-fats supposed to be bad?

Full hydrogenation produces only saturated fat. The trans fat is produced when the product isn't fully hydrogenated. Someone correct me if I'm wrong :?

 

[schultz]

If I was eating a lot of coconut oil, I'd consider getting the hydrogenated, but I eat a tablespoon or less of the stuff a day (just in cooking). A lot of trouble just to drop my PUFA by 0.2g. If you're eating 5 TBSP a day it's a full gram though.

I was considering going on a very low PUFA diet for a month, or so, to see if anything noticeable happens. This is what I'd do...

16 cups of skim milk, 1 oz beef liver, 1 TBSP Hydrogenated CO (for the liver fat solubles), 150g Orange Juice concentrate (it seems to have lower PUFA than "not from concentrate"), 42 tsp sugar, 18 "cups" of coffee (180g of beans).

Anybody wanna try it with me?

I would but the only skim I can find is UHT crap

Well I can't do it alone! I'd get bored in like half a day

 

[Such_Saturation]

If I was eating a lot of coconut oil, I'd consider getting the hydrogenated, but I eat a tablespoon or less of the stuff a day (just in cooking). A lot of trouble just to drop my PUFA by 0.2g. If you're eating 5 TBSP a day it's a full gram though.

I was considering going on a very low PUFA diet for a month, or so, to see if anything noticeable happens. This is what I'd do...

16 cups of skim milk, 1 oz beef liver, 1 TBSP Hydrogenated CO (for the liver fat solubles), 150g Orange Juice concentrate (it seems to have lower PUFA than "not from concentrate"), 42 tsp sugar, 18 "cups" of coffee (180g of beans).

Anybody wanna try it with me?

I would but the only skim I can find is UHT crap

Well I can't do it alone! I'd get bored in like half a day

I would probably enjoy it

 

[tara]

18 "cups" of coffee (180g of beans).

Wow!