No PUFA No Cancer? Not Backed By Study Ray Cites

nograde

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
133
http://peatarian.com/49034/critical-rev ... t-citation

What do you think of it? I'm also a native German speaker and read the study now several times and indeed Ray's claim about fat-free diets preventing "spontaneous development of cancer" (which he clearly bases on this study from 1927) seems a bit misleading to say at least.

Also slightly disturbing:

mice on the lipidfree diet (even without getting injected with cancer) had a increased mortality and died already after around 3 weeks. On the next morning, those mice were found without brains, as it was eaten by their "lipidhungry comrade"
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
I do not see the point of discussing a Chinese study without the translation of
the study. I can not rely on a random on line person translating that.

One funny thing about percentage.

In the summary of all experiments (205 mice total), mean tumor weight on the normal diet was 6.1g and on the lipidfree diet it was 2g (~65% reduction).

This same statement can be rephrased as " In the summary of all experiments (205 mice total), mean tumor weight on the lipid free diet was 2 g and normal diet was 6.1g (~200% increase).

Or i can say tumor on normal diet was 3 times the tumor of lipid free diet.

More important question is how much PUFA was there in normal diet.
How much PUFA was there in lipid free diet, if any? How was the status of
nutrients in lipid free diet. RP would draw completely different conclusion from
Burr's experiment where PUFA free rat developed skin condition but not the
rats on PUFA diet. That same study showed high oxygen consumption from
low PUFA high sucrose diet. RP's conclusion was that nutritional deficiency caused
skin problems in PUFA deficient rats. RP often use the data in studies
to make his point, not their conclusion.

@Charlie. Can you hire someone to translate this study for us?
 

nograde

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
133
Mittir, I think the author's point was that Ray's conclusion is misleading because the study in no way examined the "spontaneous development of cancer" (tumours were injected). And, even if the fat-free diet led to a diminished tumour-growth the mice were emaciated, died prematurely and were still having cancer.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,367
He raises a good point! I wish I understood German.
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
The author you are talking about is doing his interpretation of this same study.
Since, i can not read german paper, i will just use my common sense here.

In experiment B, tumors were found in 9/9 mice with the normal diet (mean tumor weight 0.96g) and in 5/7 mice with the lipidfree diet (mean tumor weight 0.4g).
In this experiment 2 out of 7 mice in lipid free did not develop tumor even after
tumor was injected but all the normal diet mice did. I am guessing tumor was
induced by some kind of poison, not an implantation of physical tumor .

One can observe, 2 lipid free mice did not develop cancer and all the mice
on normal diet did. What is so special about these two mice?
They did not develop tumor when they should have. I can see
that lipid free diet made these two rat resistant to induced tumor, this
automatically implies these are resistant to spontaneous tumor.

If you can not knock someone out with heavy blow you are not gonna
knock him out with light slap.

Edit: 2 out of 7 means ,30 percent of mice on lipid free diet did not
develop tumor even when they tried to induce tumor in them.
9/9 means 0 percent of mice on normal diet not get tumor
when it was induced.
 

nograde

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
133
Mittir said:
I can see that lipid free diet made these two rat resistant to induced tumor, this
automatically implies these are resistant to spontaneous tumor.

I agree that those two mice indicate an increased resistance with a fat-free diet, but your "implication" really is a bit far fetched and exactly of that kind we despise in so many other studies.
 

burtlancast

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
2,806
nograde said:
http://peatarian.com/49034/critical-review-series-cancer-found-diets-incorrect-citation

What do you think of it? I'm also a native German speaker and read the study now several times and indeed Ray's claim about fat-free diets preventing "spontaneous development of cancer" (which he clearly bases on this study from 1927) seems a bit misleading to say at least.

He's wrong about the phrasing ( "spontaneous tumors" should instead be replaced by "inoculated tumors"), but the numbers do give him reason, although not as emphatically as he wrote.

I suspect Ray could add other studies on fats and cancer to further make his point.
But nonetheless, that's a valid critique worth pursuing with him.

nograde said:
mice on the lipidfree diet (even without getting injected with cancer) had a increased mortality and died already after around 3 weeks. On the next morning, those mice were found without brains, as it was eaten by their "lipidhungry comrade"

Ray's conclusions about fats and cancer are backed up by Gerson's treatment of cancer with a fat free diet.
Gerson's patients received NO FATS OF ANY KIND for 1.5 years, and survived hopeless prognosis by official medicine.
So, i wouldn't say at all a fat free diet causes increased mortality, quite the contrary.
 

HDD

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,028
"Nevertheless, we go seheint from all those Yersuche properly excel- , daft the lipoid / ree food the Carcinomwachstum in the mouse au ~ extraordinarily hemmt1 ."(inhibited)

Inhibited is in parentheses because I put in hemmt separately to translate the meaning of this sentence.

This is from the study's ending paragraphs/conclusions translated (somewhat).

This seems to say that with the fat free food the cancer in the mouse was extraordinarily inhibited.

Extraordinarily-beyond what is usual, ordinary, regular, or established
 

nograde

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
133
Haagendazendiane said:
This is from the study's ending paragraphs/conclusions translated (somewhat). This seems to say that with the fat free food the cancer in the mouse was extraordinarily inhibited.

I will try a translation of that paragraph as close to the original as possible:

Original:
Trotzdem scheint uns aus der Gesamtheit dieser Veruche einwandfrei hervorzugehen, dass die lipoidfreie Kost das Carcinomwachstum bei der Maus außerordentlich hemmt.

Translation:
Nevertheless, in their entirety the experiments clearly show that a lipid-free diet extraordinarily inhibits the growth of carcinoma in mice.

Look, I did not want to question the validity of the claim that PUFA or high-fat diets are detrimental to health and could possibly even lead to cancer. The more I read the more my faith in that claim is strengthened.

To give you an perspective what I mean by faith: I kept my PUFA intake well below 4g/day for the last two and a half years. In the last months I drove my total fat intake down to less than 25g/day and my average PUFA intake is now less than 2g/day. If you record your nutrients I think you all know how difficult that is to achieve.

I'm only a bit disappointed that Ray gives a misleading interpretation of that study in a way that I believed to be way below his own standards.
 

HDD

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,028
I do not have the same opinion about him being misleading. His conclusions as a scientist are profound along with his integrity. As Mittir pointed out, his conclusions from research are not always the same as the researcher. We don't have to agree with his conclusions but I don't think his character should be misaligned. :2cents
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,296
Haagendazendiane said:
On Peatarian.com, a poster has pointed out that Peat's conclusion that cancer can't occur without unsaturated fats did not come from the 1927 study. He referenced this study for that statement.

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/45/5/1997
And on this page there was also a link to this nice abstract:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/127/6/1055.abstract

Cows' Milk Fat Components as Potential Anticarcinogenic Agents
[edit to add:] © 1997 American Society for Nutritional Services
The optimum approach to conquering cancer is prevention. Although the human diet contains components which promote cancer, it also contains components with the potential to prevent it. Recent research shows that milk fat contains a number of potential anticarcinogenic components including conjugated linoleic acid, sphingomyelin, butyric acid and ether lipids. Conjugated linoleic acid inhibited proliferation of human malignant melanoma, colorectal, breast and lung cancer cell lines. In animals, it reduced the incidence of chemically induced mouse epidermal tumors, mouse forestomach neoplasia and aberrant crypt foci in the rat colon. In a number of studies, conjugated linoleic acid, at near-physiological concentrations, inhibited mammary tumorigenesis independently of the amount and type of fat in the diet. In vitro studies showed that the milk phospholipid, sphingomyelin, through its biologically active metabolites ceramide and sphingosine, participates in three major antiproliferative pathways influencing oncogenesis, namely, inhibition of cell growth, and induction of differentiation and apoptosis. Mice fed sphingomyelin had fewer colon tumors and aberrant crypt foci than control animals. About one third of all milk triacylglycerols contain one molecule of butyric acid, a potent inhibitor of proliferation and inducer of differentiation and apoptosis in a wide range of neoplastic cell lines. Although butyrate produced by colonic fermentation is considered important for colon cancer protection, an animal study suggests dietary butyrate may inhibit mammary tumorigenesis. The dairy cow also has the ability to extract other potential anticarcinogenic agents such as β-carotene, β-ionone and gossypol from its feed and transfer them to milk. Animal studies comparing the tumorigenic potential of milk fat or butter with linoleic acid–rich vegetable oils or margarines are reviewed. They clearly show less tumor development with dairy products.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,296
tara said:
And on this page there was also a link to this nice abstract:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/127/6/1055.abstract

Cows' Milk Fat Components as Potential Anticarcinogenic Agents1 ...
Just noticed affiliations of author:
Peter W. Parodi
- Author Affiliations
1 Human Nutrition Program, Dairy Research & Development Corporation, Glen Iris, Victoria 3146 Australia
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,367
In my opinion they're just going up the ladder of elongase and desaturase, they are no closer to the dictionary definition of essential than the FDA is.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,367
Now that you suggest it I will (is salmon ok?) Fish oil gave me acid for over a day. To understand there is no vitamin F they will need to expand their views rather than narrow them. If anything he is backing up his system to more stable positions by loading with the product. Insulin gets that flow running and that should tell you something. A very warm organism I think will make simply Mead's acid, as a placeholder, if at all he makes anything. Of course Mr. Kruse there takes ice baths and his body needs no lessons on thermodynamics.
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
7,772
Location
Not Uganda
I haven't had good experiences with fish oil (Green Pastures Fermented) either. But I don't blame for sure on the rancidity of the PUFA or excess of it. One of these days I was recalling the experience and could've been so many other things; like vitamin A toxicity, not balanced by enough D or E in my diet back then. Also, just like any other processed food, it could rob you and deplete you if already deficient in some nutrient. This could also played a role. I should have written a log first stabilizing everything and then trying it.
If I was going to try again I would try in whole foods form: fatty fish.
Chris Masterjohn, which I admire a lot his work, if I'm not wrong, takes Cod Liver Oil on a diet considered to be optimal that is low in PUFAs.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
haidut PUFA Is A Cancer "sensitizer" Scientific Studies 0
haidut Blocking PUFA Supply Halts Brain Cancer (glioblastoma) Scientific Studies 0
Gadsie Study Showing PUFA Does Not Influence Cancer Growth? Scientific Studies 3
haidut PUFA/Statins Promote UV Damage & Skin Cancer (melanoma), Cholesterol Is Protective Scientific Studies 4
haidut PUFA Is Essential For Cancer, Aspirin And/or Blocking Estrogen Therapeutic Scientific Studies 6
haidut PUFA Required/essential For Cancer; Stearic Acid Is A PUFA Antagonist & Anti-cancer Scientific Studies 93
haidut PUFA Is Vital For Cancer Progression; Restricting PUFA Can Be Therapeutic Scientific Studies 0
haidut Inhibition Of PUFA Metabolism (LOX) Trigger Immediate Apoptosis In Prostate Cancer Scientific Studies 18
haidut Plant Diet Increases Risk Of Cancer And CVD Due To PUFA Scientific Studies 6
haidut Blocking inflammation from PUFA stops progression of cancer Scientific Studies 11
haidut PUFA Causes Hypoxia And Hypoxia ALWAYS Causes Cancer Scientific Studies 29
haidut High PUFA Diet Effectively The Same As Diabetes, Aging And Cancer Scientific Studies 21
J PUFA And Prostate Cancer Cancer 2
charlie "So in Summary PUFA Inhibit Metabolism, Promote Cancer,..." Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 0
Brandin vitamin e to balance eggs pufa. Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 15
M Organic Milk Contains More PUFA? Diet 3
I 2004 patent for low PUFA eggs Dairy, Eggs 24
Atma Ray Peat Interview #30: LSD, Serotonin, and Hallucinations | PUFA and Lipofuscin | Strategy of Tension | William Blake Interviews 4
ursidae >70 g of PUFA a day | Does diet even matter? Diet 72
haidut PUFA is catabolic, SFA is anti-catabolic (anabolic) Scientific Studies 0
DANIEL Anti-Peat Peat Wrong About PUFA? Debate - Anti-Peat 46
GelatinGoblin Which fish is best to eat in-terms of PUFA, Mercury? And maybe pollution, nuclear waste... Seafood 4
johnwester130 did my face change from k2 and avoiding PUFA? Health 84
lvysaur The Asian-Caucasoid PUFA dichotomy Scientific Studies 4
A PUFA (omega-7 Unsaturated Fatty Acids) Cause Of 'old People Smell' Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 3
Lokzo An Interview With Haidut (Georgi Dinkov) About PUFA's haidut 9
P Anti-Peat What Does Peat Have To Say About Tribal/indigenous Peoples Eating Pufa? Debate - Anti-Peat 22
A Pufa Detox - Vitamin E Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 6
Harryedgar Pufa Seems More Anabolic Than SAT Here - What Do Y’all Think? Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 4
johnwester130 Malassezia Turn Sebum Into PUFA - Is This Theory True? Hair & Nails 5
S Feeling Good After PUFA Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 5
haidut Dietary PUFA In Childhood Causes Diabetes And Irreversible (male) Infertility Scientific Studies 3
haidut PUFA Exacerbate, Saturated Fats (SFA) / Albumin / Calcium Ameliorate COVID-19 Scientific Studies 2
Razvan Pufa Deplition Is Amazing Mental Issues 22
Korven German Doctor Treats MS With Low PUFA Diet (Stops Disease In 84% Of Patients) Cancer, Degenerative Diseases 25
jamies33 Is Conjugated Linoleic Acid A PUFA? Milk 0
ecstatichamster Ray Peat Interview #35: CO2, Ketosis, And Mitochondria | PUFA, Sugar, Iron, And AGEs | Progesterone And Cell Stabil Danny Roddy 21
Harryedgar Fat Loss, PUFA, Estrogen Detox And Increased Metabolism Weight 0
haidut Dietary PUFA Causes (reversible) Male Infertility And Androgen Deficiency Scientific Studies 4
N Anti-Peat Saturated Fat TERRIBLE For Liver Health & Diabetes. Compared To PUFA Debate - Anti-Peat 140
lyfe Does Conventional Milk Contain PUFA? Diet 4
koreus Tearful After Reducing Stress And Cortisol By Removing PUFA Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 11
D Firebrand Meats - Low PUFA Pork Meat 5
D Low Pufa, Plant Based + Lean Wild Meat? Better Metabolism? Diet 10
N PUFA Chart? Ask For Help or Advice 4
wealthofwisdom What Specific PUFA Foods Did You Remove From Your Diet? Diet 49
L PUFA Detox? Metabolism 3
T Is There Are An Effective Way Clean PUFA Oil From Canned Oysters? Meat, Organ Meat, Gelatin, Seafood 5
J Why Does Peat Say Beef Is Low PUFA? Studies Are Contrary. I Don't Get It Meat 6
haidut PUFA Are Toxic/carcinogenic, And That Has Been Known For Decades Scientific Studies 5

Similar threads

Top