No evidence that depression is caused by low serotonin levels, finds comprehensive review

daphne134

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Well whaddaya know ...

"After decades of study, there remains no clear evidence that serotonin levels or serotonin activity are responsible for depression, according to a major review of prior research led by UCL scientists."

 
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pineywoodrooter

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Tucker Carlson had a good segment on this last night. Anyone on here probably already knew this, but maybe it will send some ripples through the normies.

Of course it’s suppressed by most of the MSM AND doctor’s are still prescribing it. Gaurantee if you walk into a doctors office today and say you’ve been depressed for a while they’ll bring up SSRI’s.
 

Pablo Cruise

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Tucker Carlson had a good segment on this last night. Anyone on here probably already knew this, but maybe it will send some ripples through the normies.

Of course it’s suppressed by most of the MSM AND doctor’s are still prescribing it. Gaurantee if you walk into a doctors office today and say you’ve been depressed for a while they’ll bring up SSRI’s.
Tucker was partially right. One thing maybe SSRIs do not influence Seratonin but there are 5 main neurotransmitters and is one of those affected by an SSRI? TUCKER who I like harped on Seratonin but anyone who has taken an SSRI knows they essentially work. Average use is about 9 months. Tucker's argument did not give a balanced view on SSRIs.
 
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pineywoodrooter

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Tucker was partially right. One thing maybe SSRIs do not influence Seratonin but there are 5 main neurotransmitters and is one of those affected by an SSRI? TUCKER who I like harped on Seratonin but anyone who has taken an SSRI knows they essentially work. Average use is about 9 months. Tucker's argument did not give a balanced view on SSRIs.

Disagree. It was the most balanced view of a big pharma drug I've seen out of a major news outlet in a while. The medical establishment has blatantly stated for years that depression is linked to low serotonin levels, which is obviously false.

Yes, they "work" (sometimes) in spite of their increasing serotonin, not because of it. They also, many times, completely numb all emotion. Many (if not most) SSRI users eventually report long-lasting anhedonia, sexual disfunction, loss of empathy, etc. All symptoms of high serotonin.

Taking an SSRI to cure depression is like burning down your barn to get rid of the mice.
 

Pablo Cruise

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Disagree. It was the most balanced view of a big pharma drug I've seen out of a major news outlet in a while. The medical establishment has blatantly stated for years that depression is linked to low serotonin levels, which is obviously false.

Yes, they "work" (sometimes) in spite of their increasing serotonin, not because of it. They also, many times, completely numb all emotion. Many (if not most) SSRI users eventually report long-lasting anhedonia, sexual disfunction, loss of empathy, etc. All symptoms of high serotonin.

Taking an SSRI to cure depression is like burning down your barn to get rid of the mice.
Respectfully disagree. All drugs can have side effects. All drugs. What happens is individualized reactions. Different SSRIs work on different transmitters thus some like Prozac will not work on all people. Tucker put the light on only Seratonin for which I will maintain is only part of the story thus incomplete coverage of SSRIs.
 

yerrag

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Jimmy Dore sharing what Tom Cruise the scientologist ( also actor) said about psychiatric drugs and there being no chemical imbalance:


View: https://youtu.be/Os9IIVd72E8


Next up would be a study showing a direct link between peacetime massacres in schools and chemical imbalances caused by drugs meant to cure a non-existent chemical imbalance.
 
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pineywoodrooter

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Respectfully disagree. All drugs can have side effects. All drugs. What happens is individualized reactions. Different SSRIs work on different transmitters thus some like Prozac will not work on all people. Tucker put the light on only Seratonin for which I will maintain is only part of the story thus incomplete coverage of SSRIs.

What more light does he need to shine on them? Increasing serotonin to the levels that SSRI’s do leads to anhedonia, worsening depression, sexual dysfunction, etc.

Ray Peat himself has written about the dangers of SSRI’s.
 

Pablo Cruise

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What more light does he need to shine on them? Increasing serotonin to the levels that SSRI’s do leads to anhedonia, worsening depression, sexual dysfunction, etc.

Ray Peat himself has written about the dangers of SSRI’s.
SSRIs do help some. Some side effects are serious. Again sides depend on the person.
 

InChristAlone

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People would do better with MAOIs, depression is from lack of neurotransmitters from speedy MAO. Slow it down and voila you have a better outlook on life.
 

maillol

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People would do better with MAOIs, depression is from lack of neurotransmitters from speedy MAO. Slow it down and voila you have a better outlook on life.
You can test this yourself by taking too much riboflavin. Riboflavin accelerates MAO. Always makes me depressed.
 

Soren

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Tucker was partially right. One thing maybe SSRIs do not influence Seratonin but there are 5 main neurotransmitters and is one of those affected by an SSRI? TUCKER who I like harped on Seratonin but anyone who has taken an SSRI knows they essentially work. Average use is about 9 months. Tucker's argument did not give a balanced view on SSRIs.

This is incorrect, SSRIs do influence serotonin they greatly increase it and that is the problem. Serotonin is not the "happy hormone" as has been pushed by big pharma it is actually a hormone that when in excess causes many problems.

See Ray´s thoughts on serotonin in this article.
Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

You are completely wrong when you say that "anyone who has taken an SSRI knows they essentially work". I´d be curious to know what your definition of works is? Would it be the increase in suicide, cancer, parkinsons's disease, Alzheimer's, diabetes, mass shootings and a whole host of other diseases?

See some of the studies below shared by @haidut

Blocking Serotonin may treat Leukemia and other blood cancers

Serotonin, SSRI drugs may be the cause of IBD, Parkinson's disease, diabetes, etc.

List of Serotonin studies showing how damaging it is.

Sorry if I might be coming across as a bit brusk but there is not a "balanced view" on SSRI's they are one of the greatest frauds ever put upon man that have caused so much suffering and misery that it is hard to quantify.
 

Pablo Cruise

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...no kidding?
I have worked with pts so my experience is their experience. I can not debate any questions you have here. I believe it works for some. No question. Are their serious side effects and apparently yes but have not seen from my 22 years. Whether these meds should be reserved I do not have the data to disagree.
I do believe Tucker accentuated the negatives. Your points deserve consideration.
 

cs3000

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interesting stuff

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Research that compared levels of serotonin and its breakdown products in the blood or brain fluids did not find a difference between people diagnosed with depression and healthy control (comparison) participants.

The authors also looked at studies where serotonin levels were artificially lowered in hundreds of people by depriving their diets of the amino acid required to make serotonin. These studies have been cited as demonstrating that a serotonin deficiency is linked to depression. A meta-analysis conducted in 2007 and a sample of recent studies found that lowering serotonin in this way did not produce depression in hundreds of healthy volunteers, however.

Very large studies involving tens of thousands of patients looked at gene variation, including the gene for the serotonin transporter. They found no difference in these genes between people with depression and healthy controls.

-> e.g Serotonin transporters increase when depression fades Instead of lower levels of serotonin transporter when depression had been treated, we found the opposite -- more transporter after improved symptoms. more transporter = more serotonin moved out.

The authors also found evidence from a large meta-analysis that people who used antidepressants had lower levels of serotonin in their blood. They concluded that some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentrations. The researchers say this may imply that the increase in serotonin that some antidepressants produce in the short term could lead to compensatory changes in the brain that produce the opposite effect in the long term

Thousands of people suffer from side effects of antidepressants, including the severe withdrawal effects that can occur when people try to stop them, yet prescription rates continue to rise. We believe this situation has been driven partly by the false belief that depression is due to a chemical imbalance. It is high time to inform the public that this belief is not grounded in science

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I read before on haiduts blog with SSRIs it could actually be the allopregnanolone that some SSRIs raise, that's responsible for the effect that some of them give. allopregnanolone recently got approved as an antidepressant, & pregnenolone shows anti-depressant properties which can raise allopregnanolone a lot orally. (also pregnenolone raises progesterone levels which can raise slow wave sleep)

SSRI response could be the reversing of the major REM-SWS sleep skew seen in depression, as a cause of improvement instead of an indicator alongside improvement - when REM latency increases REM duration decreases & SWS duration increases, depression outcomes are improved - maybe timing SSRIs for peak in plasma at early sleep time where SWS is supposed to hit has a lot to do with the ppl who do experience positive outcomes.
 
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yerrag

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I have worked with pts so my experience is their experience. I can not debate any questions you have here. I believe it works for some. No question. Are their serious side effects and apparently yes but have not seen from my 22 years. Whether these meds should be reserved I do not have the data to disagree.
I do believe Tucker accentuated the negatives. Your points deserve consideration.
I can agree they work.

But do they work as a cure?

Or do they work as a band-aid or as a crutch that eventually is no longer needed?

Or do they work because they will always be needed? And if this were the case, do they work like addictive drugs that cause a dependency?
 

Pablo Cruise

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Interesting question, "do they work as a cure" and I would say no. They work by improving your mood for most people and then that stops when the SSRI is stopped. They can cause euphoria or a sense of well being. I would guess this allows the depressed to find ways out of their mental state with therapy or just "healing" over time.

Most people take for around 7-8 months and quit because they have found a way out of their depression. We have patients on it for years with other psychotropics.

When Prozac the prototype first came out there were stories of people who were taking it just to feel good. I just have not seen the negative side effects and I have been in medicine for many years. I do not dispute the negatives.
 

yerrag

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Interesting question, "do they work as a cure" and I would say no. They work by improving your mood for most people and then that stops when the SSRI is stopped. They can cause euphoria or a sense of well being. I would guess this allows the depressed to find ways out of their mental state with therapy or just "healing" over time.

Most people take for around 7-8 months and quit because they have found a way out of their depression. We have patients on it for years with other psychotropics.

When Prozac the prototype first came out there were stories of people who were taking it just to feel good. I just have not seen the negative side effects and I have been in medicine for many years. I do not dispute the negatives.
Thanks.

Not having been a user and not having to need it, I count myself lucky. Growing up I had my challenges, but I've never had the chance to disintegrate to a point that I would need them. But navigating through life wasn't easy, and I would be happy to have something to prop me up if I needed it.

And thank you for helping the people who needed help.
 

IndigoBoy

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These are the facts.

SRRI's were sold on a lie. That being the depression was called by a chemical imbalance - with an emphasis on serotonin deficiency by BigPharma who stood to profit massively from the adoption of that lie.

However....

Turns out that SRRI's do cause a structural change to the brain. And there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that supports the use of SRRI's as being effective in the treatment of depression in some patients.

Not all people have positive results from SRRI's and / or other pharmacological interventions.

Pharma is only one tool in the treatment box

GP are the frontline troops for patient contact........and they have limited treatment options.....so SRRI's are justifiably their first line option.



Complicating factors:

Diagnosis tools may not be accurate
Fundamental cause / severity of the mood disorder
Practitioner belief in the treatment
Patient compliance and belief / relationship with GP
Whether patient engages in other interventions / has outside supports
Other complicating factors such as substance abuse, social isolation etc. PTSD
Placebo effect.



To summarise:

Depression / Anxiety / Mental Health is a growing epidemic that will become the second major cause of death in the world in the very near future.

We are trying to treat a complex disease that we do not fully understand, with tools that may or may not work, by people who may or may not be adequately trained, within a system that is hopelessly under resourced, with no objective way of measuring success.

The only real certainty with Mental Health is that it will take a lot more than the Medical and Allied Health System to make a real impact in reducing the suffering.
 

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