Nietzsche As Biological Visionary?

Regina

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Regina, I love you more than..........gummy bears! But I got to know more about jagsomenumber`s Nietzschean ideology.
:rolleyes: I love that you love me more than gummy bears. :kisscheek
But I am too dense to know what/who jagsomenumber's Nietzschean ideology is.
 

DaveFoster

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Yeah he has definitely solidified some of his race and genetic stuff. Maybe it's true who knows. He's right that it is very little studied so it's kind of in the dark.

I like his definition of love as the spontaneous response to virtue. That really clicked with me and why I've had some failed relationships. It also explains my desires of my parents growing up, which just was not clear to me. He makes a lot of things clear but there is always the risk with getting clarity that something will sneak in there that is authoritarian or dogmatic. The emotion of it can muddy things.

What do you think of his slavery stuff? The history of that kind of opened my eyes.
You mean the history of your enslavement? Or actual Western enslavement of Africans?

For the former, it's pretty much the same story; Marx has some beneficial narrative here pertaining to the propensity of the upper classes to oppress the lower classes, but people universally behave in similar ways; in other words, the lower classes do the same as husbands to their wives, wives to their children, etc. I think Stefan's benefit lies in his exposing of the obvious fact about humans: we all abuse power, and the best way to stop that abuse is to stop creating systems that perpetuate its continuation. Nature has this imbibed checkmate known as competition; for an organism to continue to abuse power, the biological advanage has to outweigh the needs of all its adjacent organisms, and that's almost never the case. The government should be treated as a power structure like any other, and for that it's the absolute worst, as it has no checks and balances. Even the so-called internal "checks and balances" on American government were only temporally successful. The modern corpotocracy is evident of that failure, and we now have individuals wanting to extend the government reign to an international stage for the "common good," when in actuality they're perpetuating more suffering, mainly due to the ease that big business can lobby and control the giant governmental mega-structures (shout out to the catastrophic megadeath failure known as the UN.) "But we just need more regulation to prevent corporations from taking advantage of the government!" Yeah, "That's worked in the past!" said no one, ever. Maybe for environmentalism, but it's a moot point, as without the government, corporations would be unable to monopolize the market to the ends of mandating consumers to buy from them. Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States demonstrates this again, and again, and again.

For Western enslavement of Africans, I haven't seen any videos of his, but I'm aware that Europeans were just participating in a market transaction with African slave traders; the latter benefitted from the enslavement of their kindred, so there's no designation of morality to either group. Both engaged in coercive acts because humans do so to guarantee future resources. It's not really personal, humans are self-interested beings; the best way to guarantee human morality is to place them in an environment of abundance where altruism can develop. Technology has allowed for that, and that's why the Western world, particularly Europe and the United States houses the greatest measure of philanthropy in the world, and we have for the duration of modern history. China has some interesting cultural developments as well, particularly with Confucian filiality, as do Native American tribes with the potlach and similar practices.

Stefan is dope, surprised the feds haven't shut him down for illegal red pill manufacture, but yeah he is too rigid in his racial IQ view imo, if he were to just say something like "but science shows there can be massive changes to the genome in just a few generations given the right environment" then i would agree with his philosophy for the most part. But yeah free red pills available in his "the thruth about..." series on youtube for anyone interested.
"Free red pills." Ha, no kidding.

I always took Stefan's take on IQ to be:

- It is a largely heritable trait, developed through some environmental pressures over time.

- How quickly an upward pressure on IQ can occur is unknown, but obviously does occur -- he cites the differences between population average native West African IQ, and African-American IQ.

- It is likely that early developmental issues can reduce IQ from one's maximum potential. He uses the height analogy, wherein malnutrition is going to reduce your maximum height, but good nutrition isn't going to push you past your genetic limit.

- He then claims something along the lines of regardless of whether it is genetic or cultural or other issue, we still don't know how to push up IQ drastically over a single person's lifetime.

....
Interesting thoughts. I think the designation of "IQ" is somewhat irrelevant; individuals with severe ADHD can have a theoretically high IQ, but its applicability and testability is severely limited, so its irrelevant. While something like caffeine will not necessarily raise "raw IQ," although I'd argue that it certainly would, it allows an individual to utilize their brain's capacity to a given task, which in effect raises their functional intelligence.
 

Drareg

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What views on sexuality from Ray are you referring too? Ray isn't telling people to go out and have lots of sex as far as I'm aware.



Faith implies that there is no objective evidence... Power as a primary motivator is quite objectively observable and scientifically quantifiable. I think Nietzsches will to power can be quantified through Freuds libido theory. Power is perhaps our psychological experience of libido increasing.

Freud saw libido as the creative capacity of man (also destructive capacity of man as creation implies destruction)- libido can be spent on direct sexual relations or sublimated into cultural achievements.

Serotonin decreases libido through sexual frustration. Testosterone and sex hormones in the brain tends to decrease as serotonin increases. Dopamine increases libido as we conquer goals, overcome resistance etc... We experience increases of dopamine psychologically as an increase in pleasure. increases of pleasure increase our psychological sense of power as libido rises.

“Happiness is the feeling that power increases - that resistance is being overcome.” -Nietzsche
Here Nietzsche is acknowledging that happiness stems from psychologically the experience of increased power ie: dopamine release in response to overcoming obstacles/obtaining rewards raising libido which is experienced as power.

Anyways it is not about faith and his work isn't satirical rather an intuitive understanding of psychology and life.

It's mental shackles a Nietzsche paradigm, pinning so much to dopamine is over simplifying the complexity of biology.
It's this quote on happiness with power thrown in why Nietzsche doesn't appeal to me,it's like most of his work,he had a vast vocabulary which allowed him to channel his inner emotions through words depending on the feels/vibe he had while writing,it's almost a Joyce like stream of consciousness at times.

Ejaculation is a loss of power from a male perspective yet the male remains happy,I know of few men who feel "unhappy" after ejaculation unless it's premature or your partner clearly wasn't satisfied,how does Nietzsche see ejaculation in relation to power?

Perhaps his lack of ejaculation with a loved one means he didn't get the experience,another example of how experience trumps the well read types.

Working toward the ideal and bettering yourself is happiness imo,the ideal being the underlying creative force in the universe?
It's gets real complex then when we acknowledge its within our own consciousness to be happy,if I give away my power will it make me happy,if this is what I say will make me happy,What would Frederich say here?
Age is a loss of power yet many old age folk become happy for the first time in their life.

The Nietzsche fans will say yes this is the will to power,you see, bringing us back under/into the Nietzsche paradigm even though said concepts were discussed many moons before Nietzsche.
 

DaveFoster

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It's mental shackles a Nietzsche paradigm, pinning so much to dopamine is over simplifying the complexity of biology.
Peat would pin so much to CO2.
 

Drareg

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(Currently administering ice for that burn)
You may be flattered that when i see a drareg post, an image conjures in my mind of a blue skinned budha floating three feet above the ground in a lotus position typing on a keyboard and sipping fair trade coffee.
Now, if that image is accurate, then as an all knowing deity, there must be more to your argument than "drareg's philosophy is gourmet food" so for us who cannot access your ultimate truth through telepathy, please elaborate.

Metaphor albeit a mediocre one.
Your paradigm or overall state while reading Peats methaphors blinded you to the meaning,you projected onto them for your current state,you misinterpret them because of what the words mean to you,Peat may be using words with their correct meaning,like dream for example,sound simple to interpret but as you gain a deeper understanding of dreams or dream like states it becomes more complex,the words signal symbols in your brain.

Nietzsche then is using words and concepts that appeal to a certain state of perception,keeping a dynamic open mind of sort will allow you to read Nietzsche and see it dig up underlying perceptions and emotions within you,at this point you should engage what comes up rather than just go with what potentially is a bias.

I would be more likely throwing said coffee beans at the blue skin Buddha to test the validility of its enlightened claims,if it's in human form it's probably got a weakness-communicating to other humans possibly the weakness.
 

Amazoniac

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It's mental shackles a Nietzsche paradigm, pinning so much to dopamine is over simplifying the complexity of biology.
It's this quote on happiness with power thrown in why Nietzsche doesn't appeal to me,it's like most of his work,he had a vast vocabulary which allowed him to channel his inner emotions through words depending on the feels/vibe he had while writing,it's almost a Joyce like stream of consciousness at times.

Ejaculation is a loss of power from a male perspective yet the male remains happy,I know of few men who feel "unhappy" after ejaculation unless it's premature or your partner clearly wasn't satisfied,how does Nietzsche see ejaculation in relation to power?

Perhaps his lack of ejaculation with a loved one means he didn't get the experience,another example of how experience trumps the well read types.

Working toward the ideal and bettering yourself is happiness imo,the ideal being the underlying creative force in the universe?
It's gets real complex then when we acknowledge its within our own consciousness to be happy,if I give away my power will it make me happy,if this is what I say will make me happy,What would Frederich say here?
Age is a loss of power yet many old age folk become happy for the first time in their life.

The Nietzsche fans will say yes this is the will to power,you see, bringing us back under/into the Nietzsche paradigm even though said concepts were discussed many moons before Nietzsche.
He would say that you are willing to expand your domain in each.. copulation. :ss
 

Drareg

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Peat would pin so much to CO2.

Demethylation, if we can target specific areas we will allow the flow/electric current through more coherently then potentially you will "know". This electric current possible connected to a magnet dimension of sort,if we can even call it magnetic,define magnetism.
Methylation and Dna is a lense of sort, your past and your ancestors past is projecting through the Dna into your present influencing your future.
It's possible lsd corrects this current and lense accordingly.

Will to lenses/specsavers.
 

Regina

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It's mental shackles a Nietzsche paradigm, pinning so much to dopamine is over simplifying the complexity of biology.
It's this quote on happiness with power thrown in why Nietzsche doesn't appeal to me,it's like most of his work,he had a vast vocabulary which allowed him to channel his inner emotions through words depending on the feels/vibe he had while writing,it's almost a Joyce like stream of consciousness at times.

Ejaculation is a loss of power from a male perspective yet the male remains happy,I know of few men who feel "unhappy" after ejaculation unless it's premature or your partner clearly wasn't satisfied,how does Nietzsche see ejaculation in relation to power?

Perhaps his lack of ejaculation with a loved one means he didn't get the experience,another example of how experience trumps the well read types.

Working toward the ideal and bettering yourself is happiness imo,the ideal being the underlying creative force in the universe?
It's gets real complex then when we acknowledge its within our own consciousness to be happy,if I give away my power will it make me happy,if this is what I say will make me happy,What would Frederich say here?
Age is a loss of power yet many old age folk become happy for the first time in their life.

The Nietzsche fans will say yes this is the will to power,you see, bringing us back under/into the Nietzsche paradigm even though said concepts were discussed many moons before Nietzsche.
Well, there is a dense tapestry to his sentences. That craft in itself is interesting and engaging.
It doesn't have to be novel.
Bach wasn't novel.
You are correct, though, Nietzsche was hardly the first to investigate these notions.

HAMLET
Denmark's a prison.
ROSENCRANTZ Then is the world one.
HAMLET A goodly one; in which there are many confines,
wards and dungeons, Denmark being one o' the worst.
ROSENCRANTZ We think not so, my lord.
HAMLET Why, then, 'tis none to you; for there is nothing
either good or bad, but thinking makes it so:
to me
it is a prison.
ROSENCRANTZ Why then, your ambition makes it one; 'tis too
narrow for your mind.
HAMLET O God, I could be bounded in a nut shell and count
myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I
have bad dreams.
GUILDENSTERN Which dreams indeed are ambition, for the very
substance of the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
HAMLET A dream itself is but a shadow.
ROSENCRANTZ Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a
quality that it is but a shadow's shadow.
HAMLET Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and
outstretched heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we
to the court? for, by my fay, I cannot reason.
 

Drareg

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He would say that you are willing to expand your domain in each.. copulation. :ss

Impregnation of sort? Increasing creative power yet you the father/mother in modern times become prey for the parasite that is child? Loosing power as an individual.
Is it will to power then for the universe and the rest of us are mere cannon fodder under the illusion that we posses power for me me me?

Is contraceptive a mind trick of sorts then,it could be as no couple ever wants to have deep chats about condoms or pill etc.
 

Drareg

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Well, there is a dense tapestry to his sentences. That craft in itself is interesting and engaging.
It doesn't have to be novel.
Bach wasn't novel.
You are correct, though, Nietzsche was hardly the first to investigate these notions.

HAMLET
Denmark's a prison.
ROSENCRANTZ Then is the world one.
HAMLET A goodly one; in which there are many confines,
wards and dungeons, Denmark being one o' the worst.
ROSENCRANTZ We think not so, my lord.
HAMLET Why, then, 'tis none to you; for there is nothing
either good or bad, but thinking makes it so:
to me
it is a prison.
ROSENCRANTZ Why then, your ambition makes it one; 'tis too
narrow for your mind.
HAMLET O God, I could be bounded in a nut shell and count
myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I
have bad dreams.
GUILDENSTERN Which dreams indeed are ambition, for the very
substance of the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
HAMLET A dream itself is but a shadow.
ROSENCRANTZ Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a
quality that it is but a shadow's shadow.
HAMLET Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and
outstretched heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we
to the court? for, by my fay, I cannot reason.

Bach was a genius, his fugue is him uncovering the underlying dynamic,a methaphor is a fugue of sort.
It's the golden mean mirroring itself.

Nietzsche doesn't compare to Bach imo, we will get into trouble defining genius though, I would say it's those who found the pattern/golden mean and could apply it and create from it.
Da Vinci for example.
 

Regina

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Bach was a genius, his fugue is him uncovering the underlying dynamic,a methaphor is a fugue of sort.
It's the golden mean mirroring itself.

Nietzsche doesn't compare to Bach imo, we will get into trouble defining genius though, I would say it's those who found the pattern/golden mean and could apply it and create from it.
Da Vinci for example.
Well, I'm not comparing Nietzsche to Bach.
Haha. Maybe Hindemith or .... (that's too mean. Maybe Schumann?) Of course, these comparisons are silly.
I can't understand why we can't have idle chit chat about Nietzsche. It's not fanatical or idealogical.
 

Amazoniac

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Impregnation of sort? Increasing creative power yet you the father/mother in modern times become prey for the parasite that is child? Loosing power as an individual.
Is it will to power then for the universe and the rest of us are mere cannon fodder under the illusion that we posses power for me me me?

Is contraceptive a mind trick of sorts then,it could be as no couple ever wants to have deep chats about condoms or pill etc.
You can always convince that you're not manipulating them when you are. What's the point of having children if not for exploiting their vulnerability? They are also great tools to use in case you opt for a divorce, great shielding properties.
 

Drareg

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Well, I'm not comparing Nietzsche to Bach.
Haha. Maybe Hindemith or .... (that's too mean. Maybe Schumann?) Of course, these comparisons are silly.
I can't understand why we can't have idle chit chat about Nietzsche. It's not fanatical or idealogical.

Your welcome to have a chat about him,but does it not allow for pointing out Nietzsche's fallacies and at times possible plagiarism?
 

Drareg

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You can always convince that you're not manipulating them when you are. What's the point of having children if not for exploiting their vulnerability? They are also great tools to use in case you opt for a divorce, great shielding properties.

Also it's getting close to end of days,global economy, 2 stunted teenagers running for president of a superpower with nuclear warheads,Russians shooting North Koreans, and it wouldn't be doomsday list without blaming Israel and Jewish people,all of them every last one,it's said so on a YouTube video with emotional background music and a book that uses big words etc etc.
In the above scenario Kids will be needed for tilling the land just like the good old days, why would you personally want to be out in the nuclear ridden soil,you could die,kids can be replaced,will to power.
 

Regina

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You can always convince that you're not manipulating them when you are. What's the point of having children if not for exploiting their vulnerability? They are also great tools to use in case you opt for a divorce, great shielding properties.
ggg

I was delighted to observe, what was described to me as, typical Shinto child-rearing. I was raised so differently so I couldn't help but notice.
What I observed in the Shinto examples was children not being scolded ever. However, this is in the context of parents who are highly competent in their own professional /adult lives. Traditional 2-parent homes. They trust that the child is observing his parents and trust that his/her nature, love and maturity will unfold without force. I observed one year when the son of a very well-known swordsman was drinking whiskey heavily, smoking, cursing, laying on the sidewalk and acting completely derelict. The Master showed zero disappointment in him. He said and did nothing whatsoever about the kid's behavior. The next year (I went for some consecutive annual seminars), the kid was an amazing swordsman already. Completely transformed and his father knew that the son would be the next Soke of the dynasty. He just allowed the kid to surge up however he wanted to.
 

Amazoniac

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ggg

I was delighted to observe, what was described to me as, typical Shinto child-rearing. I was raised so differently so I couldn't help but notice.
What I observed in the Shinto examples was children not being scolded ever. However, this is in the context of parents who are highly competent in their own professional /adult lives. Traditional 2-parent homes. They trust that the child is observing his parents and trust that his/her nature, love and maturity will unfold without force. I observed one year when the son of a very well-known swordsman was drinking whiskey heavily, smoking, cursing, laying on the sidewalk and acting completely derelict. The Master showed zero disappointment in him. He said and did nothing whatsoever about the kid's behavior. The next year (I went for some consecutive annual seminars), the kid was an amazing swordsman already. Completely transformed and his father knew that the son would be the next Soke of the dynasty. He just allowed the kid to surge up however he wanted to.
I also witnessed many similar examples, if the parents intervene, the children rebel; adults seem dumb, so they got to prove their point by acting different.
Wait for the inactivation of internal guidance system quote that is about to come from someone in 3, 2, 1..
 
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Amazoniac

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Also it's getting close to end of days,global economy, 2 stunted teenagers running for president of a superpower with nuclear warheads,Russians shooting North Koreans, and it wouldn't be doomsday list without blaming Israel and Jewish people,all of them every last one,it's said so on a YouTube video with emotional background music and a book that uses big words etc etc.
In the above scenario Kids will be needed for tilling the land just like the good old days, why would you personally want to be out in the nuclear ridden soil,you could die,kids can be replaced,will to power.
You can expand your reputation, which also works..
 

Regina

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I also witnessed many similar examples, if the parents intervene, the children rebel; adults seem dumb, so they got to prove their point by acting different.
Wait for the inactivation of internal guidance system quote that is about to come from someone in 3, 2, 1..
Haha. I just saw it on another thread. Deftly offered by Blossom.
 
OP
Dopamine

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pinning so much to dopamine is over simplifying the complexity of biology.
Maybe. I was just writing some quick thoughts down.

It's this quote on happiness with power thrown in why Nietzsche doesn't appeal to me,it's like most of his work,he had a vast vocabulary which allowed him to channel his inner emotions through words depending on the feels/vibe he had while writing,it's almost a Joyce like stream of consciousness at times.
Fair enough. The style of some writers don't appeal to some people.

Ejaculation is a loss of power from a male perspective yet the male remains happy,I know of few men who feel "unhappy" after ejaculation unless it's premature or your partner clearly wasn't satisfied,how does Nietzsche see ejaculation in relation to power?

"The tremendous importance the individual accords to the sexual instinct is not a result of its importance for the species, but arises because procreation is the real achievement of the individual and consequently his highest interest, his highest expression of power {not judged from the consciousness but from the center of the whole individuation}."

"There are even cases in which a kind of pleasure is conditioned by a certain rhythmic sequence of little unpleasurable stimuli: in this way a very rapid increase of the feeling of power, the feeling of pleasure, is achieved. This is the case, e.g., in tickling, also the sexual tickling in the act of coitus: here we see displeasure at work as an ingredient of pleasure. It seems, a little hindrance that is overcome and immediately followed by another little hindrance that is again overcome-this game of resistance and victory arouses most strongly that general feeling of superabundant, excessive power that constitutes the essence of pleasure."

I think Nietzsche saw procreation as the highest expression of power. Not sure about ejaculation. There is a sharp drop off in pleasure as dopamine drops and prolactin rises. Maybe some of the pleasure is sustained if psychologically you know you satisfied your partner and with rises in oxytocin. Masturbation strikes me as resulting from sexual frustration. I think the feeling of emptiness after orgasm (lack of pleasure) would probaly bring about feelings of powerlessness and futility as opposed to feelings of sexual conquest when with a partner (especially a new novel partner you've never been with before).

if I give away my power will it make me happy,if this is what I say will make me happy,What would Frederich say here?
Age is a loss of power yet many old age folk become happy for the first time in their life.

Old age brings with it many new freedoms for most people- retirement, discounts, respect, not having to work all day, leisure time etc... I don't think old people have lost a sense of power- many people will gain one. Now when they are forced into a retirement home against their will- most will lose their sense of freedom and with it a sense of power. Not necessarily though if they can establish new social groups, get out lots, visit with family more, contribute to society etc...

The Nietzsche fans will say yes this is the will to power,you see, bringing us back under/into the Nietzsche paradigm even though said concepts were discussed many moons before Nietzsche.
Who cares if any of Nietzsches concepts were taken from other people? Ray talks about learned helplessness... is that plagarism? Ray talks about the benefits of coconut oil even though i'm sure there were people before him. Concepts and ideas always get reused and recycled- this is a great thing. I think the greatest concepts stand the test of time and are truly eternal and brought back in every age. The concept of living in the present moment for example. Nietzsche adopted some of Schopenhauers concepts who adopted from the Hindu Upanishads who adopted from ages before.
 

Drareg

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Maybe. I was just writing some quick thoughts down.


Fair enough. The style of some writers don't appeal to some people.



"The tremendous importance the individual accords to the sexual instinct is not a result of its importance for the species, but arises because procreation is the real achievement of the individual and consequently his highest interest, his highest expression of power {not judged from the consciousness but from the center of the whole individuation}."

"There are even cases in which a kind of pleasure is conditioned by a certain rhythmic sequence of little unpleasurable stimuli: in this way a very rapid increase of the feeling of power, the feeling of pleasure, is achieved. This is the case, e.g., in tickling, also the sexual tickling in the act of coitus: here we see displeasure at work as an ingredient of pleasure. It seems, a little hindrance that is overcome and immediately followed by another little hindrance that is again overcome-this game of resistance and victory arouses most strongly that general feeling of superabundant, excessive power that constitutes the essence of pleasure."

I think Nietzsche saw procreation as the highest expression of power. Not sure about ejaculation. There is a sharp drop off in pleasure as dopamine drops and prolactin rises. Maybe some of the pleasure is sustained if psychologically you know you satisfied your partner and with rises in oxytocin. Masturbation strikes me as resulting from sexual frustration. I think the feeling of emptiness after orgasm (lack of pleasure) would probaly bring about feelings of powerlessness and futility as opposed to feelings of sexual conquest when with a partner (especially a new novel partner you've never been with before).



Old age brings with it many new freedoms for most people- retirement, discounts, respect, not having to work all day, leisure time etc... I don't think old people have lost a sense of power- many people will gain one. Now when they are forced into a retirement home against their will- most will lose their sense of freedom and with it a sense of power. Not necessarily though if they can establish new social groups, get out lots, visit with family more, contribute to society etc...


Who cares if any of Nietzsches concepts were taken from other people? Ray talks about learned helplessness... is that plagarism? Ray talks about the benefits of coconut oil even though i'm sure there were people before him. Concepts and ideas always get reused and recycled- this is a great thing. I think the greatest concepts stand the test of time and are truly eternal and brought back in every age. The concept of living in the present moment for example. Nietzsche adopted some of Schopenhauers concepts who adopted from the Hindu Upanishads who adopted from ages before.

The great achievement of the individual being procreation sums him up for me,it's the fusing of two people,unless you want to go to the origins of the word individual but this is not what he means.
The highest expression of power will not always be while procreating,the context of these situations will vary.
The force that allows for procreation,what put of us all here is the source of power that Nietzsche is claiming the individual owns and wishes to express,this creative force is in everything so should be as powerful in everything else when functioning at its ideal level.

He veers into platitudes when he is thinking for himself,the difference between Peat and Nietzsche is Peat citing sources and inspirations,Nietzsche is not doing this for most of his books.

Currently and in Nietzsche time old age was a loss of power to death,you lose power,if nature was all about will to power as per nietzsches spiel it would not allow for humans to clog up their system the way we do,we would not consume PUFA/HUFA.

Does he at any point reconcile the fact that some spend their lives giving their power to others or the fact that you can choose to do this ,keep giving yourself to others, sacrificing oneself for others.A mother gives her power to her child.
The selfishness argument is not necessary for the above,the question and fact remains they will loose power,just ask any mother with a newborn and young kids.
 

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