Nicotine Withdrawals, Norepinephrine Increased

Drareg

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Good study showing how adults get an increased spike in on administration in cardiac norepinephrine and another cardiac norepinephrine spike on withdrawal .
It mentions smoking but like many studies on smoking they only use nicotine administration.

Equally important, the long-term changes after adolescent nicotine exposure resemble those known to be associated with risk of hypertension in young adulthood (elevated norepinephrine) or subsequent congestive heart disease (norepinephrine deficits)

Adolescents and adults differ in the immediate and long-term impact of nicotine administration and withdrawal on cardiac norepinephrine. - PubMed - NCBI
 

Dopamine

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Good study showing how adults get an increased spike in on administration in cardiac norepinephrine and another cardiac norepinephrine spike on withdrawal .
It mentions smoking but like many studies on smoking they only use nicotine administration.

Equally important, the long-term changes after adolescent nicotine exposure resemble those known to be associated with risk of hypertension in young adulthood (elevated norepinephrine) or subsequent congestive heart disease (norepinephrine deficits)

Adolescents and adults differ in the immediate and long-term impact of nicotine administration and withdrawal on cardiac norepinephrine. - PubMed - NCBI

This is what happens when you force stimulants on rats via implanted drug pumps 24hours a day for 17 days. It does not reflect natural usage behaviour and self administration of nicotine. If they switched nicotine out for caffeine it should have the same effect.
 
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Yeah, I smoke American spirits and at times have had as many as ten per day. I smoke between 0-5 a day now and cant say i notice any unpleasant withdrawal effect when going for several days with no tobacco. I mostly have urges to smoke when I feel bad from a long day at work, being underfed, underslept, etc. That would correlate with self medicating. But I am beginning to switch over to drinking coffee primarily because of the potentially harmful effects of smoke.
 

Drareg

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This is what happens when you force stimulants on rats via implanted drug pumps 24hours a day for 17 days. It does not reflect natural usage behaviour and self administration of nicotine. If they switched nicotine out for caffeine it should have the same effect.

You say ,"it does not reflect natural usage behaviour and self administration of nicotine ",yet people for centuries and modern times need to self administer nicotine every hour or else withdrawals set in.

Do you have the research for nicotine and caffeine being switched out or is this your personal opinion ? I will take a wild guess, it's your personal opinion. Caffeine and coffee are different, you seem to ignore this.
 

Drareg

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Yeah, I smoke American spirits and at times have had as many as ten per day. I smoke between 0-5 a day now and cant say i notice any unpleasant withdrawal effect when going for several days with no tobacco. I mostly have urges to smoke when I feel bad from a long day at work, being underfed, underslept, etc. That would correlate with self medicating. But I am beginning to switch over to drinking coffee primarily because of the potentially harmful effects of smoke.

It's highly likely you had withdrawals but just pushed through them, the thing is you still went back to smoking.
The substances in cigarettes can stay in the system for while.
 

Dopamine

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You say ,"it does not reflect natural usage behaviour and self administration of nicotine ",yet people for centuries and modern times need to self administer nicotine every hour or else withdrawals set in.

Do you have the research for nicotine and caffeine being switched out or is this your personal opinion ? I will take a wild guess, it's your personal opinion. Caffeine and coffee are different, you seem to ignore this.

If people are capable of smoking while asleep then sure this study reflects natural usage... I said caffeine will have the same detrimental effect because both caffeine and nicotine are dose dependent stimulants. Try having caffeine pumped into your body 24 hours a day and tell me your stress hormones don't rise...
 

Drareg

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If people are capable of smoking while asleep then sure this study reflects natural usage... I said caffeine will have the same detrimental effect because both caffeine and nicotine are dose dependent stimulants. Try having caffeine pumped into your body 24 hours a day and tell me your stress hormones don't rise...

Many people take nosleep pills that contain caffeine and do fine if there is plenty of food.

Nicotine is a potent hdac inhibitor making it highly addictive with severe withdrawals, caffeine has none of this.
 
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It's highly likely you had withdrawals but just pushed through them, the thing is you still went back to smoking.
The substances in cigarettes can stay in the system for while.

I wouldn't say I "pushed" through it. I don't restrict myself from smoking at any time. If I feel the need to smoke, I will go out of my way to do it. I don't partake in my apartment which leads me to smoke very little to not at all on my days off work. Fully capable of trekking 20 feet to smoke outdoors but I generally don't because I'm not under stress and I'm generally preoccupied with other things.
 

Drareg

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I wouldn't say I "pushed" through it. I don't restrict myself from smoking at any time. If I feel the need to smoke, I will go out of my way to do it. I don't partake in my apartment which leads me to smoke very little to not at all on my days off work. Fully capable of trekking 20 feet to smoke outdoors but I generally don't because I'm not under stress and I'm generally preoccupied with other things.

It seems pointless to smoke cigarettes in your case then imo. Far better substances to use.
 

postman

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Cigarettes have plenty of chemicals that cause withdrawal symptoms, for example the MAO inhibitors.
 

MrFreeman

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Effects of caffeine on performance and mood: withdrawal reversal is the most plausible explanation - Springer

Sounds like caffeine is the exact same way, except even worse, with absolutely no benefits besides staving off withdrawal for one more day. At the very least, nicotine continues to impart cognitive enhancing properties no matter how dependent and tolerant you are to it.

Now that I've calmed down, I realize fighting fire with fire is not optimal, however I will keep this study up for observation.
 
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Drareg

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Effects of caffeine on performance and mood: withdrawal reversal is the most plausible explanation - Springer

Sounds like caffeine is the exact same way, except even worse, with absolutely no benefits besides staving off withdrawal for one more day. At the very least, nicotine continues to impart cognitive enhancing properties no matter how dependent and tolerant you are to it.

Now that I've calmed down, I realize fighting fire with fire is not optimal, however I will keep this study up for observation.

You should search through the forum for more studies on caffeine, most people take coffee which has more nutrient value,something to keep in mind.
I'm not sure what you are deducing from the study you posted that claims it's worse than nicotine for withdrawals,this is nowhere to be found in there.

Nicotine has a half life of 1 to 2 hours and is a hdac inhibitor, withdrawals will com on faster.

Do you have any evidence for nicotine continuing to impart cognitive enhancing properties no matter how dependent or tolerant you are to it?
There is a huge amount of studies showing isolated nicotine damaging the foetus in pregnancy.
 

MrFreeman

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I meant, the cognitive effects of withdrawal are worse (because the study deduces that caffeine doesn't actually enhance concentration or cognitive ability, but rather just prevents those from decreasing due to withdrawal). Besides, HDAC inhibitors are being looked into for treatment of "addiction" so I really don't know what you're talking about. The other alkaloids in tobacco have MUCH longer half-lives, and nicotine administration alone has actually caused initial dysphoria in some people, whereas in combination with the other alkaloids, it's antidepressant. I also know that if you go to a pipe smokers forum, you realize that the people who smoke more than 3 bowls a day are few and far between. A bowl of tobacco doesn't even get you going the same way one cigarette does. I myself smoke 1/2 to 1 whole bowl of Izmir Turkish a day.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165614705001288
 
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Drareg

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I meant, the cognitive effects of withdrawal are worse (because the study deduces that caffeine doesn't actually enhance concentration or cognitive ability, but rather just prevents those from decreasing due to withdrawal). Besides, HDAC inhibitors are being looked into for treatment of "addiction" so I really don't know what you're talking about. The other alkaloids in tobacco have MUCH longer half-lives, and nicotine administration alone has actually caused initial dysphoria in some people, whereas in combination with the other alkaloids, it's antidepressant. I also know that if you go to a pipe smokers forum, you realize that the people who smoke more than 3 bowls a day are few and far between. A bowl of tobacco doesn't even get you going the same way one cigarette does. I myself smoke 1/2 to 1 whole bowl of Izmir Turkish a day.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165614705001288

Go look at the many other studies on here for caffeine, your cognitive effects are influenced by the health of the entire body,liver for example, there is no divide between brain and body.

Many things act as a hdac inhibitor, the more potent and shorter half life the more severe withdrawals will be, nicotine has a half life of 1 to 2 hours. If you don't get what a hdac inhibitor does why attempt discuss it,go read about it.

In general You need to eat and drink less than the amount of hits from nicotine.

I'm sure if you go to any forum where people are in denial of an addiction they will tell you they can take it or leave it, addicts always claim to use less. These anecdotes are redundant when speaking of an addictive substance,i'll take a guess and say addicts may be inclined to lie from time to time about their substance use,call me cynical.

Many people claim a small few lines of cocaine a day is no problem either,just a smidge, their not hooked they say,even have passion for pure sources.
Same with cannabis culture, many different spins offs culturally around it from the spiritual type cannabis guy,science type cannabis guy and what about intellectual cannabis guy etc
The tobacco pipe guys are the same, let me go to extraordinary lengths to justify my addiction, I'm not addicted I just have passion for hand carved pipes and hipster styled beards, maybe a 100% sheeps wool jumper would fit the tobacco forum guy archetype nicely. I imagine Nietzsche is popular on said forum ,discussing how they are carrying issues from childhood however is a no go,maybe epigentically this is the reason for tobacco use but they will never know,sigh....

It would be great if some could say,hey it is an addiction but it's my life and I can choose how to live. (Small problem however is clogging up the health service with lung cancer,erectile dysfunction etc etc based on said reasoning)
 
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jyb

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That's why Ray Peat currently recommends far better substance than nicotine.

You are aware that RP has written a lot about LSD derivatives? Strangely I doubt that this forum, which contains many discussions about them, has caused anyone to become addicted to LSD.
 

jyb

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As to "hdac inhibitor"...you know vitamin B3 is commonly studied as an hdac inhibitor?
 

Drareg

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You are aware that RP has written a lot about LSD derivatives? Strangely I doubt that this forum, which contains many discussions about them, has caused anyone to become addicted to LSD.

Yes I am aware.
 

jyb

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Also aware of this.

B3 is probably the most talked about vitamin on this forum and in Ray's articles. And in some situations we're talking about ultra high megadoses, not something that would ever be possible with food nor allowed in a human study.
 
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