Nicotine [Through A Peat Prism?]

[michael94]

No I drink coffee with plenty of cream and honey but aside from that no stimulants. I supp zinc but I don't think that counts.

The difference between mass-produced, phosphate-fertilized tobacco products with tons of additives vs organically grown tobacco with no additives is very real I think. Doesn't seem too far-fetched to think phillip-morris and it's competitors would breed/produce cigarettes to be addictive and profit driving! If your customers need a pack a day to function that seems like a good business model...

Tobacco smoke still will always have carcinogens but so does the food you ingest everyday. It's all a matter of degree and whether the benefits outweigh the negatives. While pure nicotine doesn't include potentially harmful tobacco smoke it's harder to use it by instinct and easier to become addicted

 

[DaveFoster]

Phenibut is my favorite drug along with caffeine and tianeptine. Nothing makes me feel better than a good dose of phenibut and I have been using it for over 2 years. I have never experienced withdrawals. I think if you keep usage to once or twice a week it's fine. Nothing makes my mood soar and warms up my hands and feet like phenibut can. It has very strong dopaminergic effects in my experience.

Don't underestimate phenibut. It will bring you to your knees in suicidal ideation.

 

[Dopamine]

Don't underestimate phenibut. It will bring you to your knees in suicidal ideation.

I know, I have heard that phenibut withdrawals are menacing... even compared to hard drugs like heroin and benzos. I don't abuse it though.

 

[DaveFoster]

I know, I have heard that phenibut withdrawals are menacing... even compared to hard drugs like heroin and benzos. I don't abuse it though.

Or mix it with alcohol like me. Never again.

 

[Drareg]

Phenibut is my favorite drug along with caffeine and tianeptine. Nothing makes me feel better than a good dose of phenibut and I have been using it for over 2 years. I have never experienced significant withdrawals. Nothing makes my mood soar and warms up my hands and feet like phenibut can. It has very strong dopaminergic effects in my experience.

Phenibut is addictive, and does have withdrawals,if you want to use studies I posted one about its comparisons to nicotine, there are many more studies ,some of the anecdotal stories are alarming when it comes to withdrawals .
When it's gone from your system you withdraw into your previous state very quickly unless you have used it for a difficult period and sincerely addressed that difficult period.

Feeling warm and good is generally what some hdac inhibitors do,it can be one of many things it's doing, you can also feel this way by a changing your stress levels,environment and general outlook on life,vision and acceptance. Ray Peat mentions somewhere that butyric acid helps T3 enter the cell, if you are taking what you say you could have issues its t3 for the many reasons covered by Peat and on this forum,PUFA,cortisol etc.
Using good food and avoiding starch, taking adaptive substance with food if necessary that won't leave with withdrawals if they are not available.
Coherent metabolism that produces co2 will naturally demethylate DNA safely and make you adaptive/balanced.

Ray Peat on tianeptine ,he is implying bromocritine and others covered in the forum. Notice how it's within a context.

Ray Peat: "I have known a few people who had very good results with tianeptine, and a couple who got side effects from it. I think any of the antiserotonin drugs will eventually cause side effects, and should only be used until a problem is corrected, for example when an enlarged pituitary is normalized. I think the same effects can be produced with nutrition and hormones, without the possible problem

 

[Drareg]

No I drink coffee with plenty of cream and honey but aside from that no stimulants. I supp zinc but I don't think that counts.

The difference between mass-produced, phosphate-fertilized tobacco products with tons of additives vs organically grown tobacco with no additives is very real I think. Doesn't seem too far-fetched to think phillip-morris and it's competitors would breed/produce cigarettes to be addictive and profit driving! If your customers need a pack a day to function that seems like a good business model...

Tobacco smoke still will always have carcinogens but so does the food you ingest everyday. It's all a matter of degree and whether the benefits outweigh the negatives. While pure nicotine doesn't include potentially harmful tobacco smoke it's harder to use it by instinct and easier to become addicted

You could probably get the good vibes you mentioned form nicotine by some less potent and more researched supplements, like taking aspirin on ocassion has a libido effect for many, as does small amount of b6.
I think anything that takes stress down can give the LSD effect, like a day off after a crazy work week of 65+ Hours or more.

 

[jyb]

Yes, last one I had was about a month ago because I'm away from home currently. No ill effects

I experimented with nicotine (in various forms, including snus to understand the difference between smoking tobacco and using just pure nicotine) and have never experienced withdrawal. I think it is very similar to caffeine in that respect: I never expect a dependence side effect. In terms of other side effects such as what happens when overdosing (taking a large dose of nicotine or caffeine or using them too frequently), I view nicotine as safer (overdosing not good, but no stress response nor mysterious effect on sleep later in the day). I don't think caffeine and nicotine can really be compared, even though both can be good for dopamine and anti-stress hormones when taken in reasonable doses. They have different uses, just like other things discussed on this forum.

 

[Drareg]

I experimented with nicotine (in various forms, including snus to understand the difference between smoking tobacco and using just pure nicotine) and have never experienced withdrawal. I think it is very similar to caffeine in that respect: I never expect a dependence side effect. In terms of other side effects such as what happens when overdosing (taking a large dose of nicotine or caffeine or using them too frequently), I view nicotine as safer (overdosing not good, but no stress response nor mysterious effect on sleep later in the day). I don't think caffeine and nicotine can really be compared, even though both can be good for dopamine and anti-stress hormones when taken in reasonable doses. They have different uses, just like other things discussed on this forum.

Do you smoke?

 

[jyb]

Do you smoke?

No, I don't. As I mentioned I have experimented with smoking tobacco (my longest experiment was smoking almost daily for a few months). I won't talk about my experience smoking as there's already been some long threads about it on this forum, worth a read if you're curious about it.

 

[Dopamine]

Phenibut is addictive, and does have withdrawals,if you want to use studies I posted one about its comparisons to nicotine, there are many more studies ,some of the anecdotal stories are alarming when it comes to withdrawals .
When it's gone from your system you withdraw into your previous state very quickly unless you have used it for a difficult period and sincerely addressed that difficult period.

Feeling warm and good is generally what some hdac inhibitors do,it can be one of many things it's doing, you can also feel this way by a changing your stress levels,environment and general outlook on life,vision and acceptance. Ray Peat mentions somewhere that butyric acid helps T3 enter the cell, if you are taking what you say you could have issues its t3 for the many reasons covered by Peat and on this forum,PUFA,cortisol etc.
Using good food and avoiding starch, taking adaptive substance with food if necessary that won't leave with withdrawals if they are not available.
Coherent metabolism that produces co2 will naturally demethylate DNA safely and make you adaptive/balanced.

Ray Peat on tianeptine ,he is implying bromocritine and others covered in the forum. Notice how it's within a context.

Ray Peat: "I have known a few people who had very good results with tianeptine, and a couple who got side effects from it. I think any of the antiserotonin drugs will eventually cause side effects, and should only be used until a problem is corrected, for example when an enlarged pituitary is normalized. I think the same effects can be produced with nutrition and hormones, without the possible problem

Yes I think I will take a break from phenibut because I feel like I may be experiencing minor withdrawals after each dose. The day after phenibut i've been apathetic with low motivation whereas I used to feel a nice stimulating afterglow. I would also prefer to take substances that I can take more often and that are more in line with Peats recommendations. I find LSD and psychedelic tryptamines to be extremely metabolically stimulating- they warm up my hands and feet more than phenibut. They also seem to greatly reduce my acne for a few days. High dose caffeine does the same thing. I know Ray has written good things about LSD. I've been having really emotionally jarring bad trips lately but psychedelics are one of the only things that seem to help with my depression and anhedonia. They definitely make you face your demons but afterwards I feel positive effects of low serotonin. I'm going to try nicotine because of its effects on dopamine and I've heard it synergizes well with caffeine and psychedelics. I've also seen studies showing that nicotine helps with anhedonia and acts as an antidepressant.

 

[kineticz]

@kineticz mentioned a similar phenomenon with his eye color changing ( not nicotine related ) so I don't think I'm alone in this.

I can chime in and say eye colour is definitely related to neurotransmitters, norephiprene being hazel, dopamine and serotonin being blue.

Any play between colours is from my perspective showing your neurotransmitter ratio.

 

[Parsifal]

I wonder if chewing gums would not let you swallow some gums which are not good for the GI tract?

 

[Lisalou]

I have been a cigarette smoker for 35 + years..The times I did think i would quit only lasted a day as the nicotine gum and the patch made me violently ill (nausea) and headaches. The thing is i have never had a problem with it and found it to be very relaxing, a chance to sit and go ahhh..Any skin wounds have always been rapid repairing and I havent had a cold or flu in decades. I do have a very fast metabolism. Caffein I stopped cold turkey and my body went into a total breakdown, addict like symptons.. I think there is a difference between the nicotine and the cigarette, just not quite sure what.. It is an expensive habbit now, so kicking the habbit would be great..Weird thing is though, since I have been taking progesterone and pregnenolene the cravings are worst ..
Thoughts on this anybody??

 

[Peata]

I experimented with nicotine gum for a few months, and didn't see a lot of similarities to caffeine other than I'd get a stress response (anxiety, occasional headache) if I didn't have adequate food.

Differences: IME, nicotine hit fast with a "buzz", where caffeine would take at least 45 min to really get going, and was not a buzz. Caffeine's effects lingered a long time. Nicotine completely left my system (at least, as far as its noticeable effects) in a short time - 15 min? (guessing). Once the "buzz" part wore off, it's back to normal without any lingering effect. I could use it before bed and fall asleep with a good night's sleep, unlike with coffee/caffeine. Nicotine's effects came and left without a trace. More was not better though. I took up to 24 mg. some days (divided over the day), and that seemed like a natural upper limit to me because I never took more than that though it was available, and usually took much less. Mostly I used 4 mg or less. I'd take days off from using it. Eventually it seemed like it became too tricky to use almost any amount without getting a stress response/needing food, etc.

More on the buzz part: With nicotine, sitting down, I could focus and do work on the computer quite nicely, but standing up and walking around, it wasn't a useful feeling at all. Too much of a "light-headed", fuzziness, which is odd because as I said, sitting and working on computer it seemed to give more focus. No stomach issues that I know of.

I didn't feel nicotine was addictive for me, partly because of how fast the effects left without any sort of negative feeling as they left. It was like I'd never taken anything. At any rate, I never had any withdrawal when I'd stop using it. No craving, but I can see how it could become a "habit" the same as when you get used to having a cup of coffee or Coke while browsing the internet or using nicotine to help you focus on a specific task.

I'm not sure if nicotine should be considered peaty, just giving my experience comparing it to caffeine.

 

[LukeL]

No other supplement I have taken gives me a boost in positive well being like nicotine - I assume this is because of dopamine? However when I use it chronically it looses it's 'boost' and I actually start to feel negative effects...

 

[pboy]

basically theres extremely reductive science and thinking and meems regarding tobacco and nicotine out there. Its like saying 'fat is bad' its that simple narrow and foolish. Is it oxidized? what kind of fat? how fresh? what source? in what amount and ratio to other macro and micronutrients? ect, its almost as if not more variable with 'nicotine is bad'. In fact if you look it up nicotine has no known carcinogenic effects, and theres basically an LD50 but that's kind of like nearly every substance, the vast moajority of studies show benefit from nicotine. So people just kind of say its bad cause they think smoking or tobacco or cigarettes are bad, ignorantly basically. Just as a note, if this tells you anything, there was no association with smoking tobacco and disease until the advent of cigarettes becoming common around the 50's and just before that...so its obvious its something else in the cigarettes other than nicotine or even the tobacco itself that is the problem. Its no coincidence around that time chemicals began being used in agriculture, and added to the smoking blends and paper that was used for them. Its pretty obvious actually. So really tobacco has gone from a sacred respected herb like cannabis to something religiously maligned because of ignorance basically and misinformation or people being bamboozled. The whole thing about using patches or vaping its like...ok, but its disrespectful in my opinion and still operating out of a scared or false premis, instead of getting at the core of what the real problem is and just eliminating that. People don't have to smoke, and can say whatever they want but its potentially to their own detriment. The laws and fear of cigarette smoking is kind of ridiculous considering, yea cigarettes have bad chemicals in them (people act like super offended that people would smoke around them or in public as if its not just the chemical smell, and the fact they think tis the tobacco, but like as if it has some kind of religious sinful extra bad connotation, more than just a rational thing...it has to do with their ego and operating out of some false beliefs/premise) but in reality walking behind a car putting out exhaust and breathing it in, walking into a foul public restroom, cleaning at your work or home using chemical cleaners, artificial air fresheners, probably many many things, are just as bad if not wors in many cases but you see the same people maligning cigarettes and condemning smokers using all those things, breathing in or walking around pollution without a thought in the world of it, probably using bug spray and eating conventional food factory farmed terrible things and not thinking a thing of it, tap water, ect, chlorine. Id personally rather be around a cigarette than a chlorinated foul public bathroom as an example, that's definitely worse. Basically people want to put blame of things they are guilty for or ignorant of onto 'them, the bad guys' or something, usually they demonize something that has some semblance of something that could help them but would require them being more real and looking at the real problems and addressing them which many aren't willing to do for some reason

 

[DaveFoster]

I've been experimenting with topical nicotine (0.5 mg x4-12/day) and the results have been very positive. It just seems to balance everything: no euphoria, just slight motivation increase, impulsivity control, greater focus, slight calmness, reduced gut sensitivity (very welcome).

It may be that my mother consumed nicotine when I was in her womb, and my father was a heavy smoker for over 50 years, so the benefits have certainly been discovered by my parents.

 

[sladerunner69]

I've been experimenting with topical nicotine (0.5 mg x4-12/day) and the results have been very positive. It just seems to balance everything: no euphoria, just slight motivation increase, impulsivity control, greater focus, slight calmness, reduced gut sensitivity (very welcome).

It may be that my mother consumed nicotine when I was in her womb, and my father was a heavy smoker for over 50 years, so the benefits have certainly been discovered by my parents.

Topical nicotine so you use a patch? .5mg is almost nothing I think one cigarette has 1-2mg


Ive enjoyed smoking cigars when I've had a few drinks, but when Ive tried smoking outside of nights drinking alcohol it gives me a quick boost that fades quickly and then brainfog. I tried nicotine gum with 4mg nicotine per piece and it's taste just downright awful, I dont know who could chew that gum it was basically like having a lip packed with chew. It worked well for about 30 minutes and then the effect faded and the usualy symptoms appearred, tiredness, brain fog, etc.

 

[DaveFoster]

Topical nicotine so you use a patch? .5mg is almost nothing I think one cigarette has 1-2mg


Ive enjoyed smoking cigars when I've had a few drinks, but when Ive tried smoking outside of nights drinking alcohol it gives me a quick boost that fades quickly and then brainfog. I tried nicotine gum with 4mg nicotine per piece and it's taste just downright awful, I dont know who could chew that gum it was basically like having a lip packed with chew. It worked well for about 30 minutes and then the effect faded and the usualy symptoms appearred, tiredness, brain fog, etc.

I get the e-cig liquid with vegetable glycerin, and then I dilute that and apply it topically. It's dirt cheap with delayed absorption. I got the idea from here:

Nicotine as nootropic - the cheap (and safe?) way • r/Nootropics

"I've been using nicotine as a nootropic for the past 2-3 months and my experience has been very, very good. I used to have huge issues with procrastination and getting distracted while trying to get things done, but I've found that nicotine has greatly improved my ability to concentrate, focus, and actually enjoy learning. I am a graduate student, and I've found that nicotine has given me the machine-like ability to get up in the morning and work continuously on readings and research until the evening, without getting distracted. I've read that nicotine might be useful in helping to form new habits; indeed, now I find that when I'm NOT doing work at the computer (which is where I administer the drug), I have the mild urge to go back and continue working (maybe a negative?).

What initially dissuaded me from using nicotine was the cost and potential hazards of the usual delivery mechanisms. I started with the gum, but I found that despite chewing it correctly (chew/park), I would still get throat burn. Also, my jaw/neck began to get stiff and I began to get random soreness in my teeth and gums. I then looked into the transdermal patch, but those are ridiculously expensive. Many people recommend vaping as the ideal nicotine delivery method, but to me, the social stigma attached to it and its indiscreetness ruled it out. Also, some people worry about the yet unknown(?) health effects of inhaling vaporized propylene glycol/vegetable glycerin.

Luckily for me, I now use a delivery method that is very discrete, cheaper, and perhaps even safer than vaping or chewing gum. I buy max-vg nicotine e-liquid (24mg/ml nicotine concentration). Where I buy it, 30ml is about $7. It comes in a dropper bottle, and I apply 2 drops to the back of my hand and rub it in like lotion. I weighed it out, and 2 drops with my containers works out to about 1.4mg of nicotine; if two drops is one dose, there are approximately 525 doses in the bottle (1.3 cents per dose!). Nicotine is rapidly absorbed through the skin, and vegetable glycerin is completely safe to apply (used in many skin products). The downside is, unlike the gum, you don't "feel" it working (the gum tingles in your mouth). If you like that, you can put a (TINY) bit on your lips to get the tingle. Put too much and it will burn.

So far, I haven't noticed any dependency - some days I don't use it and I don't get any cravings - but to be safe, I limit myself to 8 drops spread out through the day, or about 6mg. I also stack it with 100mg caffeine, but I don't use any other nootropics.

If you are going to try this, I recommend STARTING SLOW. Get a lower concentration of e-liquid first, and make sure you measure the drops with scale so you know approximately how much nicotine you are getting per drop (every bottle is different!). If you've never smoked before, you should probably aim for no more than 1mg of nicotine your first dose. Also, more is NOT better with nicotine... one time I tried 3 drops and got so sick I nearly threw up my lunch.

TLDR: a small amount of e-liquid on the skin works as nootropic, cheaper and maybe safer than other delivery mechanisms"

 

[sladerunner69]

I get the e-cig liquid with vegetable glycerin, and then I dilute that and apply it topically. It's dirt cheap with delayed absorption. I got the idea from here:

Nicotine as nootropic - the cheap (and safe?) way • r/Nootropics

"I've been using nicotine as a nootropic for the past 2-3 months and my experience has been very, very good. I used to have huge issues with procrastination and getting distracted while trying to get things done, but I've found that nicotine has greatly improved my ability to concentrate, focus, and actually enjoy learning. I am a graduate student, and I've found that nicotine has given me the machine-like ability to get up in the morning and work continuously on readings and research until the evening, without getting distracted. I've read that nicotine might be useful in helping to form new habits; indeed, now I find that when I'm NOT doing work at the computer (which is where I administer the drug), I have the mild urge to go back and continue working (maybe a negative?).

What initially dissuaded me from using nicotine was the cost and potential hazards of the usual delivery mechanisms. I started with the gum, but I found that despite chewing it correctly (chew/park), I would still get throat burn. Also, my jaw/neck began to get stiff and I began to get random soreness in my teeth and gums. I then looked into the transdermal patch, but those are ridiculously expensive. Many people recommend vaping as the ideal nicotine delivery method, but to me, the social stigma attached to it and its indiscreetness ruled it out. Also, some people worry about the yet unknown(?) health effects of inhaling vaporized propylene glycol/vegetable glycerin.

Luckily for me, I now use a delivery method that is very discrete, cheaper, and perhaps even safer than vaping or chewing gum. I buy max-vg nicotine e-liquid (24mg/ml nicotine concentration). Where I buy it, 30ml is about $7. It comes in a dropper bottle, and I apply 2 drops to the back of my hand and rub it in like lotion. I weighed it out, and 2 drops with my containers works out to about 1.4mg of nicotine; if two drops is one dose, there are approximately 525 doses in the bottle (1.3 cents per dose!). Nicotine is rapidly absorbed through the skin, and vegetable glycerin is completely safe to apply (used in many skin products). The downside is, unlike the gum, you don't "feel" it working (the gum tingles in your mouth). If you like that, you can put a (TINY) bit on your lips to get the tingle. Put too much and it will burn.

So far, I haven't noticed any dependency - some days I don't use it and I don't get any cravings - but to be safe, I limit myself to 8 drops spread out through the day, or about 6mg. I also stack it with 100mg caffeine, but I don't use any other nootropics.

If you are going to try this, I recommend STARTING SLOW. Get a lower concentration of e-liquid first, and make sure you measure the drops with scale so you know approximately how much nicotine you are getting per drop (every bottle is different!). If you've never smoked before, you should probably aim for no more than 1mg of nicotine your first dose. Also, more is NOT better with nicotine... one time I tried 3 drops and got so sick I nearly threw up my lunch.

TLDR: a small amount of e-liquid on the skin works as nootropic, cheaper and maybe safer than other delivery mechanisms"

Interesting, that is a neat little hack! 1 cent per dose is probably in my budget, I'll ahve to run the numbers on my expense sheets (econ major).

The other problem with smoking and less so with the gum but still noticable was the vasoconstriction... made my chest hurt and my hands and feet cold and I would get these occasional cramps in my neck/shoulder that felt like heartbeats. I dont think nicotine is very good for circulation.... Though I should probably look up some studies on tha tin the morning because if it increases 5ar significantly it could be worth it.