Nicotine [Through A Peat Prism?]

[Dopamine]

Your not making any point clear and have not done so In this thread in relation to the title ,I have been clear and giving you reasonable responses but now you insist on creating a strawman and the last 2 responses contain passive aggressive ad hominem.

The title of the thread you created is,"NICOTINE THROUGH A PEAT PRISM", in your first post you posit nicotine to have similar effect to caffeine, THIS IS WELL KNOWN BY MANY ON THE FORUM.
What is also well known is he CURRENTLY does not recommend it ahead of other adaptive substance, you have the quote from an email response.

I have said repeatedly that many substances that increase metabolism can be seen to be acting similarly, I don't refuse to see this, you refuse to see that I do see it.

Earlier in this thread you claim there is not a lot of research on isolated nicotine use, now you say there is lots of clinical trials on nicotine use.
You say no trials yet in non smokers show addiction yet you admit nicotine can cause dependence withdrawal....... I will take a wild guess and say trials will show addiction based on socioeconomic status,current diet,metabolism.


Nitroglycerine is a typo but you mock instead of asking about the use of glycerine in e cigarettes. I'm on a phone.

"I'm ignoring this because I don't care" , you say this in relation to anecdotal evidence of the forum about nausea and stomach upset caused by small amounts of nicotine gum?? This is one of the many advantages of the forum.
You then say,"people would smoke for Mao inhibition alone", this is your own opinion,a form of anecdotal evidence,clearly it's ok for you but not for others.

Ray Peat puts HDAC inhibitions into context, mild hdac inhibition is adaptive. Allows gene expression,allows the organism to function,adapt better,this feels good,too much is not good,balance.
In certain contexts like cancer ,more potent hdac inhibitor like vorinostat is helpful and is have seemingly positive effects.
phenibut,valrian,nicotine are stronger inhibitors ,niacinamide and some other Peat recommended are mild .
Cocaine acts as demthylating agent not as a hdac inhibitor ,co2 helps demethylate, glucose fuelled metabolism does the same.
cocaine one is too strong and can have side effects. The overall outcome of demethylating and hdac inhibition is SIMILAR but not the same, you have also quoted a study that nicotine use will increase the likelihood of cocaine addiction.
Food is having these effects,COFFEE! as do hormones. All the substances mentioned have other effects also ,valerian is tougher on the liver for example.
This above partially explains withdrawals because all the substances have a spring back effect, spring back effects are not nice, check the forum for threads on phenibut, I believe benzodiazepines might act like a potent hdac inhibitor, withdrawals from benzos is not nice.


You claim to understand the big picture, perhaps putting the word "trying" in that sentence would be better, you don't understand the big picture,non of us here do.
Studies are not facts particularly when it comes to a substance like nicotine that is hugely profitable even in e cigarettes,it's also addictive which makes it the perfect money making product.

I'm not missing the point of your posts,you are not comparing nicotine to caffeine with a thread titled ,"NICOTINE THROUGH A PEAT PRISM".
coffee/caffeine is consumed like food every few hours depending on your metabolism, like many people who have just one coffee a day don't need more as time passes, if you have one nicotine hit a day,the demand for this will increase as time passes to the point where you need a hit every hour to function,just like cocaine or phenibut the dose needs increasing,nature gives no magic bullet.
Stress levels ,socio economic status all relevant and will make things worse .

I'm sure Peat is putting nicotine through his own prism for years now yet still does not recommend nicotine over other adaptive less addictive substance.

Your beginning to sound like a politican with your responses, "intelligent rebuttal" , give you ,"good evidence", this all been given, how about you stop ignoring that RAY PEAT DOES NOT CURRENTLY RECOMMEND NICOTINE over other safer adaptive substance.


Here are some cherry picked studies showing increases in nitric oxide, there are loads more to be cherry picked.


A study showing nicotine effecting pregnancy negatively .
Chronic Nicotine Exposure Abolishes Maternal Systemic and Renal Adaptations to Pregnancy in Rats. - PubMed - NCBI

A study showing negative effects of nicotine treated rats,one of the groups were nicotine only. Decreased gluthatione,decreased SOD, increased nitric oxide and more.
Investigation of the protective effect of ellagic acid for preventing kidney injury in rats exposed to nicotine during the fetal period. - PubMed - NCBI

This shows the nicotine only group had an increase in nitric oxide,liver effected also it claims.
Protective Role of Crocin Against Nicotine-induced Damages on Male Mice Liver. - PubMed - NCBI

Interesting effect involving nicotine on nitric oxide.
Striatal NOS1 has dimorphic expression and activity under stress and nicotine sensitization. - PubMed - NCBI

Nicotine increases nitric oxide in males,causes weight gain in males.
Effects of chronic nicotine administration on body weight, food intake and nitric oxide concentration in female and male rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Nicotine significantly increased nitric oxide in one group.
Role of vitamin C and selenium in attenuation of nicotine induced oxidative stress, P53 and Bcl2 expression in adult rat spleen. - PubMed - NCBI

Nicotine causes increased insulin sensitivity with prolonged use, decreases sensitivity with short term use. Dual opposing roles.
Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in glucose homeostasis: the acute hyperglycemic and chronic insulin-sensitive effects of nicotine suggest dual op... - PubMed - NCBI

Nicotine exposure in adolescence regardless of amount consumed results in increased nitric oxide activity in frontal cortex of rats, which persists through adulthood.
Brain nitric oxide metabolites in rats preselected for nicotine preference and intake. - PubMed - NCBI

Prenatal nicotine exposure,negative effects.
Angiotensin II-mediated vascular changes in aged offspring rats exposed to perinatal nicotine. - PubMed - NCBI

This is a great study showing nicotines paradoxical effects mainly on nitric oxide, at times nitric oxide is alleviating anxiety, Peats recent newsletter was called,Procrustean adaptogen -nitric oxide.
http://www.iricss.org/fa/Documents/Articles-91-92/91-19.pdf

Increasing nitric oxide,angiogenesis.
Nicotine and pathological angiogenesis. - PubMed - NCBI

1. I don't care what Peat recommends I can form my own opinions.
2. Peat has never advised specifically to avoid nicotine like he advises about PUFA.
3. Peat has recommended nicotine in some instances.
4. Your first study shows a decrease in nitric oxide activity which contradicts all the rest of the studies you posted. The rats were also force fed nicotine which isn't fair. I presented studies that show decreased self administration of nicotine during pregnancy. Given the choice then these rats probaly wouldn't take the same doses forced on them.
5. Most of the rest of your studies show acute nicotine increases nitric oxide... I agree with this and I have gone over this. There is a big difference between acute and chronic usage.
6. I already discussed nicotines role in angiogenesis and metastasis earlier in the thread.
7. People getting a stomache ache from nicotine gum doesn't concern me in the slightest.
8. I'm sorry if you feel i'm mocking you
9. If I at any point said that there aren't many trials on nicotine then I will admit I was mistaken
10. How do you know niacinamide is a mild inhibitor of HDAC and nicotine is a strong inhibitor out of curiosity? One of the studies I posted on nicotine show only 28% inhibiton of HDAC which doesn't seem massive. I haven't found any studies that say exactly the % inhibition from niacinamide if you can post them that'd be great. I don't claim to be an expert on HDAC I know little about it because I haven't really looked into it.
11.

You then say,"people would smoke for Mao inhibition alone", this is your own opinion,a form of anecdotal evidence,clearly it's ok for you but not for others.

Fair enough but I stand by my arguement that some people would still smoke cigarettes if they contained no nicotine. You claimed the contrary and can't prove it either. Again I will state that people drink decaf even though it contains no caffeine.
12. My statement that there are no nicotine dependency studies done on non-smokers is not wrong.
13. Earlier in the thread you said:

Nicotine does not compare in nootropic effects to pregnenlone,b1 ,t3 ,niacinamide or theanine IMO. You don't need this stuff every 2 hours, once adjusted to t3 you can take it with meals.

I got the impression that you have used nicotine before based on this post as you are claiming to have experienced its "nootropic effects"... thats why I accused you of being an ex smoker and harbouring bias.

 

[Dopamine]

That is a good point. The dosage I used was based on the study I mentioned, which I believe was 15 mg. Of course, it may have been necessary to work my way up.

From what I read, I think nicotine stimulates two general types of neurotransmitter receptors. One is dopamine type I receptor, which leads to relaxation. Then, there is the acetylcholine receptors. In high doses, nicotine's effect is supposed to be mostly sedative (dominated by the dopamine receptor activation), while in lower concentration, its effect is sedative. Perhaps, I have that mixed up ...

15mg is a very large dose as I understand it. Coffee has similar cognitive benefits to nicotine so that could be something to try if she hasn't already. Also pregnenolone or progesterone might be helpful.

 

[David Chung]

Has any diagnosis been made on her condition?
Is it just mild memory impairment?
Ray Peat has some better recommendations than nicotine for memory that won't decrease appetite and rapidly raise heart rate.

Thanks! It is memory impairment - not sure to what extent.

When her doctors prescribed statins for high cholesterol and cholinergic drugs for her memory, I realized that I was on my own. From observing her (e.g., her blood sugar readings and other indicators), I had realized that her problem was rooted in her energy metabolism -- it was not because she was lacking acetylcholine (in its production or transmission).

Then I came upon you guys. I was surprised to find posts that were consistent with my observation about her. I was especially impressed with the view here that dementia is actually a "diabetes type III." It is all the more surprising, because the view goes completely against those of the medical establishment and the big pharma (I am really down on them these days).

I am now following the general principle outlined in this forum (thanks for great posts!) - it has not been long, but I am seeing minute changes in my mom's behavior. Before discovering you guys, I had been giving her niacinamide only (it has been helping but not enough). Since my discovery of this forum, I confirmed that caffeine is helpful, and made it regular part of her daily supplement regime. I would like to add aspirin but worried about its effect on her digestive system.

One interesting compound I found here is methylene blue. I'd probably try that next. On myself first, of course, just in case it turns out to be toxic and accidentally end up killing her.

 

[Drareg]

1. I don't care what Peat recommends I can form my own opinions.
2. Peat has never advised specifically to avoid nicotine like he advises about PUFA.
3. Peat has recommended nicotine in some instances.
4. Your first study shows a decrease in nitric oxide activity which contradicts all the rest of the studies you posted. The rats were also force fed nicotine which isn't fair. I presented studies that show decreased self administration of nicotine during pregnancy. Given the choice then these rats probaly wouldn't take the same doses forced on them.
5. Most of the rest of your studies show acute nicotine increases nitric oxide... I agree with this and I have gone over this. There is a big difference between acute and chronic usage.
6. I already discussed nicotines role in angiogenesis and metastasis earlier in the thread.
7. People getting a tummy ache from nicotine gum doesn't concern me in the slightest.
8. I'm sorry if you feel i'm mocking you
9. If I at any point said that there aren't many trials on nicotine then I will admit I was mistaken
10. How do you know niacinamide is a mild inhibitor of HDAC and nicotine is a strong inhibitor out of curiosity? One of the studies I posted on nicotine show only 28% inhibiton of HDAC which doesn't seem massive. I haven't found any studies that say exactly the % inhibition from niacinamide if you can post them that'd be great. I don't claim to be an expert on HDAC I really know nothing about it because I haven't really looked into it.
11. fair enough but I stand by my arguement that some people would still smoke cigarettes if they contained no nicotine. You claimed the contrary and can't prove it either. Again I will state that people drink decaf even though it contains no caffeine.

Strawman response again.
If don't care what Ray Peat says I really don't get the point of you on a forum Called, the Ray Peat Forum?
You still have no concern for people who report nausea from small amounts of nicotine ,you have now framed that to be a tummy ache,nausea and diarrhoea is a little more than tummy ache. Thankfully Ray Peat would care.
Peat not recommending to avoid nicotine is not a recommendation to use it before other currently proven safer coherent substances.

Peat was asked a question on nicotine ,he answered the question within a context. If he was currently recommending nicotine it would be in an article.


I summarised the studies posted, the first study shows it negatively effects the foetus!! You ignore this, you then claim this study discredits the rest I posted, I'm clear on the effects of paradoxical effects of nicotine, it doesn't take away from the first study or the rest.

I don't feel mocked ,you are attempting to give yourself a complement. You have edited one of your posts,you added, you enjoy a good debate and are not trying to trash me?
Decaf coffee is a food with more in it than just decaffeination, it's also a hot drink.

Acute and chronic are interchangeable depending on context,they can very quickly become the same depending on the potency of the drug and stress levels ,niacinamide lowers nitric oxide. You have not gone over nitric oxide nor did you look at the larger study I posted showing contradictory behaviour of nicotine with nitric oxide.
You discussing angiogenesis does not close the topic.
Many of the studies the rats were not force fed.

you posted a study where the author mentions hdac inhibition ,you didn't bother to read your study posted ?
nicotine class 1 and 2 , research is still ongoing and I don't know if they are as confident, I think they have the Wikipedia page changed also ,it could Be a side effect of nicotine, niaicnamide is in a less potent class.
Plenty of info out there about epigentics.

You claim you can form your own opinions as can anyone else,your welcome to do it, I don't get why you title a thread ,"NICOTINE THROUGH A PEAT PRISM", if don't care what he says and it's your own opinion, it's clearly at this stage your own opinion on nicotine. You cherry pick studies that support your view and ignore evidence to the contrary , midway through the thread you claim you have seen no evidence to show the negatives of nicotine so far!
Earlier in the thread you said progesterone can alleviate nicotine cravings/addiction, what's the point in using nicotine over other substances according to your own logic here?

 

[DaveFoster]

One thing's for sure. No pre-workout like good 'ol nicotine.

 

[Drareg]

Thanks! It is memory impairment - not sure to what extent.

When her doctors prescribed statins for high cholesterol and cholinergic drugs for her memory, I realized that I was on my own. From observing her (e.g., her blood sugar readings and other indicators), I had realized that her problem was rooted in her energy metabolism -- it was not because she was lacking acetylcholine (in its production or transmission).

Then I came upon you guys. I was surprised to find posts that were consistent with my observation about her. I was especially impressed with the view here that dementia is actually a "diabetes type III." It is all the more surprising, because the view goes completely against those of the medical establishment and the big pharma (I am really down on them these days).

I am now following the general principle outlined in this forum (thanks for great posts!) - it has not been long, but I am seeing minute changes in my mom's behavior. Before discovering you guys, I had been giving her niacinamide only (it has been helping but not enough). Since my discovery of this forum, I confirmed that caffeine is helpful, and made it regular part of her daily supplement regime. I would like to add aspirin but worried about its effect on her digestive system.

One interesting compound I found here is methylene blue. I'd probably try that next. On myself first, of course, just in case it turns out to be toxic and accidentally end up killing her.

Careful,of methylene blue, if they have her on an SSRI ,it can dump out the serotonin so to speak and cause serotonin syndrome.
Aspirin and niacinamide have reversed Alzheimers in mousse models. Peat has 2 great articles on Alzheimers.

If they give her that patch that inhibits the enzyme for breaking down acetylcholine I think,don't put it on her, if this patch doesn't work they will give memantine ,just give the doctor a spiel about muscle problems with the patch and request me meantime ,which may be similar to theanine ,memantine is better . Theanine will help also,lower stress hormones and serotonin.

High cholesterol says a lot . T3 not working with it perhaps, he covers this in those articles.

 

[Drareg]

One thing's for sure. No pre-workout like good 'ol nicotine.

There has to be something better ,it's probably giving adrenaline response when your out of sugar, feel like you can climb the walls with adrenalin pump. Alright when young maybe. Will Ferell doesn't look very Peaty in this picture .

 

[DaveFoster]

There has to be something better ,it's probably giving adrenaline response when your out of sugar, feel like you can climb the walls with adrenalin pump. Alright when young maybe. Will Ferell doesn't look very Peaty in this picture .

Idk what you're talking about. You're just jealous of his swole-ity. Swoleness. Swolenation.

 

[Dopamine]

If don't care what Ray Peat says I really don't get the point of you on a forum Called, the Ray Peat Forum?

I meant I can form my own opinions... I don't need people to tell me what to do.

I summarised the studies posted, the first study shows it negatively effects the foetus!! You ignore this, you then claim this study discredits the rest I posted, I'm clear on the effects of paradoxical effects of nicotine, it doesn't take away from the first study or the rest.

I didn't ignore this I said:

The rats were also force fed nicotine which isn't fair. I presented studies that show decreased self administration of nicotine during pregnancy. Given the choice then these rats probaly wouldn't take the same doses forced on them.

you posted a study where the author mentions hdac inhibition ,you didn't bother to read your study posted ?

The study shows nicotine inhibits HDAC whats your point?

Earlier in the thread you said progesterone can alleviate nicotine cravings/addiction, what's the point in using nicotine over other substances according to your own logic here?

Yes it raises neurosteroid levels of progesterone which is why when progesterone levels are high (pregnancy) the subject will reduce self-administration to compensate.

 

[michael94]

I don't think it's right to say you should pick caffeine or some other stimulant over nicotine because they work in very different ways. They're also quite synergistic together, for whatever that's worth. When I think of someone working on a project smoking cigarettes and pounding down coffee that just seems like such a natural and common thing to do, or friends gathered at a cafe enjoying espresso and a smoke.

I can share a bit of my personal experience with cigarettes ( never taken pure nicotine ).

Mental:

- Attention span goes way up ( not flipping between 10 different browser tabs constantly )
- feel "sharper"
- slightly more spiritual ( although not like LSD, it's still there )
- pessimism gets incinerated

Physical:

- Signs of low prolactin, any males out there will know what I mean by this. Your balls and penis come alive
- Slightly less edema
- Less of that tingly feeling all over body that I have come to attribute to insulin, nicotine lowers insulin
- More energy
- Significant improvement in respiratory capacity, removes the weighted-down feeling in your lungs


Negatives:

The main negative I've experienced is due to the increase in FFA and the resulting increase in oxidative stress. How do I know oxidative stress is occurring? It's not the most scientific of methods, but I go by my eye color. My eye color range from light brown during periods of high oxidative stress to a bright almost fluorescent green. My eyes are always most green in the mornings and if I do a lot of exercise they start to become more hazel. Now, the degree to which this happens has been decreasing as I've taken conscious efforts to reduce PUFA and iron stores.

A cigarette used to without fail make my eyes a pure light brown color but now it's not as pronounced as before. My humble inference is that in cases of low omega-6 pufa and iron stores that the negatives of nicotine are very minor if not non-existent. 2 cups of black coffee has about the same effect on my eye color as a cigarette for what it's worth, so it's definitely liberation of PUFA at play here. And of course if you have excess iron this multiplies the harmful effects of PUFA. The importance reducing iron is not overstated by Peat, I used to think it was.

@kineticz mentioned a similar phenomenon with his eye color changing ( not nicotine related ) so I don't think I'm alone in this.

 

[michael94]

Also I have no addiction, but I smoke the more "natural" organic cigarettes with no additives. The commercial white paper cigarettes may be different either because of the tobacco growing techniques ( phosphate fertilizers ) or because of things added in processing/curing.

 

[Dopamine]

One thing's for sure. No pre-workout like good 'ol nicotine.

Haha thats awesome

I don't think it's right to say you should pick caffeine or some other stimulant over nicotine because they work in very different ways. They're also quite synergistic together, for whatever that's worth. When I think of someone working on a project smoking cigarettes and pounding down coffee that just seems like such a natural and common thing to do, or friends gathered at a cafe enjoying espresso and a smoke.

I can share a bit of my personal experience with cigarettes ( never taken pure nicotine ).

Mental:

- Attention span goes way up ( not flipping between 10 different browser tabs constantly )
- feel "sharper"
- slightly more spiritual ( although not like LSD, it's still there )
- pessimism gets incinerated

Physical:

- Signs of low prolactin, any males out there will know what I mean by this. Your balls and penis come alive
- Slightly less edema
- Less of that tingly feeling all over body that I have come to attribute to insulin, nicotine lowers insulin
- More energy
- Significant improvement in respiratory capacity, removes the weighted-down feeling in your lungs


Negatives:

The main negative I've experienced is due to the increase in FFA and the resulting increase in oxidative stress. How do I know oxidative stress is occurring? It's not the most scientific of methods, but I go by my eye color. My eye color range from light brown during periods of high oxidative stress to a bright almost fluorescent green. My eyes are always most green in the mornings and if I do a lot of exercise they start to become more hazel. Now, the degree to which this happens has been decreasing as I've taken conscious efforts to reduce PUFA and iron stores.

A cigarette used to without fail make my eyes a pure light brown color but now it's not as pronounced as before. My humble inference is that in cases of low omega-6 pufa and iron stores that the negatives of nicotine are very minor if not non-existent. 2 cups of black coffee has about the same effect on my eye color as a cigarette for what it's worth, so it's definitely liberation of PUFA at play here. And of course if you have excess iron this multiplies the harmful effects of PUFA. The importance reducing iron is not overstated by Peat, I used to think it was.

@kineticz mentioned a similar phenomenon with his eye color changing ( not nicotine related ) so I don't think I'm alone in this.

Very interesting thanks for the post. I have heard lots of good things about nicotine being used for attention, focus, as a study aid, and to combat ADHD.

 

[Drareg]

I meant I can form my own opinions... I don't need people to tell me what to do.


I didn't ignore this I said:



The study shows nicotine inhibits HDAC whats your point?


Yes it raises neurosteroid levels of progesterone which is why when progesterone levels are high (pregnancy) the subject will reduce self-administration to compensate.

My first study was not in relation to nitric oxide ,it was effect on foetus, you claimed this study doesn't mention nitric oxide so it had no relevance and rendered the rest of the studies redundant, the logic of your behaviour here is non existent.

HDAC inhibition has been pointed out to you earlier in the thread and several times after it. Epigentics effects and addiction are relevant to nicotine. The withdrawal from nicotine epigentically added to the nitric oxide effect it has in many studies make a poor choice compared to other adaptogens mentioned by Ray Peat.

You want to view ,"NICOTINE THROUGH A PEAT PRISM" , your not doing this. It's your own opinions, you should rename the thread and post in a different category, alternative views to Peats IMO

 

[Drareg]

Haha thats awesome



Very interesting thanks for the post. I have heard lots of good things about nicotine being used for attention, focus, as a study aid, and to combat ADHD.

There is also negatives in the post mentioned, you accept the positive anecdote but not the negative.

 

[Drareg]

I don't think it's right to say you should pick caffeine or some other stimulant over nicotine because they work in very different ways. They're also quite synergistic together, for whatever that's worth. When I think of someone working on a project smoking cigarettes and pounding down coffee that just seems like such a natural and common thing to do, or friends gathered at a cafe enjoying espresso and a smoke.

I can share a bit of my personal experience with cigarettes ( never taken pure nicotine ).

Mental:

- Attention span goes way up ( not flipping between 10 different browser tabs constantly )
- feel "sharper"
- slightly more spiritual ( although not like LSD, it's still there )
- pessimism gets incinerated

Physical:

- Signs of low prolactin, any males out there will know what I mean by this. Your balls and penis come alive
- Slightly less edema
- Less of that tingly feeling all over body that I have come to attribute to insulin, nicotine lowers insulin
- More energy
- Significant improvement in respiratory capacity, removes the weighted-down feeling in your lungs


Negatives:

The main negative I've experienced is due to the increase in FFA and the resulting increase in oxidative stress. How do I know oxidative stress is occurring? It's not the most scientific of methods, but I go by my eye color. My eye color range from light brown during periods of high oxidative stress to a bright almost fluorescent green. My eyes are always most green in the mornings and if I do a lot of exercise they start to become more hazel. Now, the degree to which this happens has been decreasing as I've taken conscious efforts to reduce PUFA and iron stores.

A cigarette used to without fail make my eyes a pure light brown color but now it's not as pronounced as before. My humble inference is that in cases of low omega-6 pufa and iron stores that the negatives of nicotine are very minor if not non-existent. 2 cups of black coffee has about the same effect on my eye color as a cigarette for what it's worth, so it's definitely liberation of PUFA at play here. And of course if you have excess iron this multiplies the harmful effects of PUFA. The importance reducing iron is not overstated by Peat, I used to think it was.

@kineticz mentioned a similar phenomenon with his eye color changing ( not nicotine related ) so I don't think I'm alone in this.

Have you gone without nicotine/cigarettes and used any other substance for and extended time?

 

[michael94]

Have you gone without nicotine/cigarettes and used any other substance for and extended time?

Yes, last one I had was about a month ago because I'm away from home currently. No ill effects

 

[Dopamine]

My first study was not in relation to nitric oxide ,it was effect on foetus, you claimed this study doesn't mention nitric oxide so it had no relevance and rendered the rest of the studies redundant, the logic of your behaviour here is non existent.

No the study showed nicotine decreased nitric oxide. Great. It also shows that when you pump rats full of stimulants against their will it can damage the offspring... whoopteedoo

HDAC inhibition has been pointed out to you earlier in the thread and several times after it. Epigentics effects and addiction are relevant to nicotine. The withdrawal from nicotine epigentically added to the nitric oxide effect it has in many studies make a poor choice compared to other adaptogens mentioned by Ray Peat.

Withdrawals are stressful so they will increase NO. Coffee also can induce withdrawals.

There is also negatives in the post mentioned, you accept the positive anecdote but not the negative.

He said he experiences the same negative side effects from coffee...

Lets just agree to disagree because I don't feel like spamming this thread anymore with arguments.

 

[Drareg]

Yes, last one I had was about a month ago because I'm away from home currently. No ill effects

Do you take any supplements when of cigarettes that give you the same vibe when smoking? Phenibut?

 

[Drareg]

No the study showed nicotine decreased nitric oxide. Great. It also shows that when you pump rats full of stimulants against their will it can damage the offspring... whoopteedoo

Withdrawals are stressful so they will increase NO. Coffee also can induce withdrawals.


He said he experiences the same negative side effects from coffee...

You don't seem to get withdrawals in relation to epigentic effect, you should check out the phenibut thread.
You should look through some threads on coffee on here. Nicotine does not currently compare, coffee is one of the most researched substances.
Icecreamlover mentions 2 cups of black coffee ,unless this is with sugar/food it will cause a stress response ,this is how Peat recommends coffee, most research showing negative signs from black coffee were on an empty stomach.

 

[Dopamine]

You don't seem to get withdrawals in relation to epigentic effect, you should check out the phenibut thread.
You should look through some threads on coffee on here. Nicotine does not currently compare, coffee is one of the most researched substances.
Icecreamlover mentions 2 cups of black coffee ,unless this is with sugar/food it will cause a stress response ,this is how Peat recommends coffee, most research showing negative signs from black coffee were on an empty stomach.

Phenibut is my favorite drug along with caffeine and tianeptine. Nothing makes me feel better than a good dose of phenibut and I have been using it for over 2 years. I have never experienced significant withdrawals. Nothing makes my mood soar and warms up my hands and feet like phenibut can. It has very strong dopaminergic effects in my experience.