Nicotine [Through A Peat Prism?]

[NathanK]

Yeah, it's probably an overactive system ,underlying hypothyroid or some other stress hormone out of balance, it will hit that straight away. Sometimes you begin to want to do anything to subdue the body,many people live like this until old age,high pressure jobs.

It's interesting when people have done lsd,psilocybin they claim to no longer need their addiction, interesting and ties in with Peats advice.

I think tobacco played a decent part in my subclinical hypothyroidism. Ive always lived an action packed life too, but together with chronic use led to a state of continuous high stress hormones. After years of chronic FFA supressing thyroid and hormone synthesis, there's more and more a need for adrenaline until it all comes crashing down. The irony of being addicted is how users rely on/driven to tobacco the most while under stress. Until Ive healed my metabolism then there will always be that opening/temptation.

I think dopamine metabolism plays a stong role in nicotine or its habitual use. Smoking has been shown to be protective in Parkinson's. This is something hereditary in my family and I've wondered if I chose tobacco or my body chose it for me. Very Dawkin's "Selfish Gene-ish". Ive forgotten the mechanism of how nicotine is exactly protective, but i remember researching it a while ago and having a big "aha" moment with a lot of dots connected. That being said, nicotine and caffeine are similar in protection and elevating dopamine and, though ive always loved coffee, I share no addictive qualities toward caffeine.

I havent heard the context of the stories of substances like LSD, and others, curing addictions, but I remain skepticle until I hear the journey's and long term success rates. I just have a hard time believing magic pills exist for anything in life. There's gotta be more to it.

 

[Drareg]

Lisuride is used for Parkinson's , some people have had good effects from that on here,helps dopamine,lower prolactin and serotonin.
Nicotine is helping people alright, just seems like there is better substance that won't leave you hanging every hour for a hit. Important to take the time to get the metabolism up though ,no need to shock it.

No such thing as a selfish gene just a selfish Dawkins looking to profiteer through shock and alarmism.
The genome is full of giving IMO

 

[DaveFoster]

Good thoughts. In the same way that alcohol stimulates release of liver glycogen, nicotine stimulates mitochondrial uncoupling.

Both are just there for people to seek a high-energy state.

It's all about achieving a greater energy turnover; evolving to a higher state.

Here's some information about prolactin:

Steven Hamley: Prolactin and Stress

Prolactin seems to be the ultimate hormone of aging.

Things that promote prolactin include beta-endorphin, serotonin, estrogen, and lowered dopamine. Everything good inhibits prolactin. Nicotine lowers prolactin.

Here's an article for potential impacts of nicotine in cardiovascular disease:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0741521496700381

 

[DaveFoster]

Just an update.

150-200 mcg nicotine via gum has greatly helped my ADD without any of the lipolytic side effects, such as nausea and sweating.

 

[bobbybobbob]

I've mentioned this before, but nasal snuff makes a lot more sense to me than vaping or patches or gums. It's so cheap and effective. The other ways are more about getting your dollar.

You can even take a bit of snuff and put it under some painters/duct tape on your skin somewhere. I tried and it totally works.

 

[Dopamine]

I've mentioned this before, but nasal snuff makes a lot more sense to me than vaping or patches or gums. It's so cheap and effective. The other ways are more about getting your dollar.

You can even take a bit of snuff and put it under some painters tape on your skin somewhere. I tried and it totally works.

I think e-liquid for vaping is cheaper than snuff and can be absorbed through the skin just as well.

 

[Dopamine]

Just an update.

150-200 mcg nicotine via gum has greatly helped my ADD without any of the lipolytic side effects, such as nausea and sweating.

How long have you been taking it and how many times per day? Do you feel like it raises stress hormones or anxiety after taking it? I'm going to try nicotine myself with e-cigs most likely.

 

[Elron]

I've been reading about nicotine and remember to what I believe to be the only bad thing peat had to say about it was vasoconstriction, which can cause wrinkles later on. Is there anything that could work against the vasoconstriction?

 

[Dopamine]

I've been reading about nicotine and remember to what I believe to be the only bad thing peat had to say about it was vasoconstriction, which can cause wrinkles later on. Is there anything that could work against the vasoconstriction?

From what I understand- vascoconstriction (increased blood pressure) is primarily caused by increases in stress hormones. Acute nicotine intake can raise stress hormones (just like caffeine) but chronic intake of nicotine seems to produce adaptations against stress (just like caffeine). Anything that combats stress hormone release should combat the vascoconstrictive effect. Sugar is very helpful for lowering stress. Most small energy drinks have around 30g of sugar (2.5 tbsp) I have found this to be a reliable dosage for lowering stress and reducing jitters from stimulants. 100-500mg niacinamide would also be good. Some salt and protein also help lower stress. I'm no more worried about the vascoconstrictive effects of nicotine than I am of the vascoconstrictive effects of caffeine.

 

[DaveFoster]

How long have you been taking it and how many times per day? Do you feel like it raises stress hormones or anxiety after taking it? I'm going to try nicotine myself with e-cigs most likely.

I've been taking it a few days. I've had to stop after crashing my estrogen levels from something unrelated.

Low libido is really getting on my nerves, and nicotine doesn't help unfortunately.

 

[Drareg]

I've been reading about nicotine and remember to what I believe to be the only bad thing peat had to say about it was vasoconstriction, which can cause wrinkles later on. Is there anything that could work against the vasoconstriction?

That's not the only thing Ray Peat implied when speaking about nicotine, he did not recommend it for anyone under 60. He clearly did not recommend it in general.

This thread is titled "nicotine through a Peat prism" , THROUGH RAY PEAT HIMSELF HE DOES NOT CURRENTLY RECOMMEND NICOTINE ,he will recommend other currently safer substances instead that will not leave you in uncomfortable withdrawal or with upset digestive system.

 

[Drareg]

I've been taking it a few days. I've had to stop after crashing my estrogen levels from something unrelated.

Low libido is really getting on my nerves, and nicotine doesn't help unfortunately.

Crashing your estrogen levels and low libido ? As in low estrogen causing low libido?

 

[Peata]

I've been taking it a few days. I've had to stop after crashing my estrogen levels from something unrelated.

Low libido is really getting on my nerves, and nicotine doesn't help unfortunately.

No, I doubt it would help since nicotine is an aromatase inhibitor.

 

[Dopamine]

That's not the only thing Ray Peat implied when speaking about nicotine, he did not recommend it for anyone under 60. He clearly did not recommend it in general.

This thread is titled "nicotine through a Peat prism" , THROUGH RAY PEAT HIMSELF HE DOES NOT CURRENTLY RECOMMEND NICOTINE ,he will recommend other currently safer substances instead that will not leave you in uncomfortable withdrawal or with upset digestive system.

When has he ever spoken about nicotine? He has stated very little concerning nicotine and I honestly don't think that he has paid it much attention. I don't think he has ever said to avoid nicotine if your under 60... I looked for that quote and I can't find it. Also nicotine will not leave you in "uncomfortable withdrawal" or "digestive upset". I have already covered the fact that isolated nicotine is not very addictive and it could lower digestive upset by decreasing gut serotonin. Nicotine overdose can cause digestive upset but thats not very relevant. Peat actually has recommended nicotine for older people btw...

"All smoke is carcinogenic. It's true that nicotine can be protective in some situations, and usually that's in older people. In those situations, it's best to use it orally or transdermally."
-Ray Peat in correspondence with Peatarian

 

[DaveFoster]

Crashing your estrogen levels and low libido ? As in low estrogen causing low libido?

Yeah, but in addition to a fat-free diet. I'm reintroducing fat.

No, I doubt it would help since nicotine is an aromatase inhibitor.

I'm suspended nicotine for a week until my E2 recovers. I just made a transdermal solution over on my shelf with 0.15 mgs/drop.

"All smoke is carcinogenic. It's true that nicotine can be protective in some situations, and usually that's in older people. In those situations, it's best to use it orally or transdermally."
-Ray Peat in correspondence with Peatarian

He says that it can be protective but also contributes to premature aging of the skin.

 

[Drareg]

You just quoted the quote from the email exchange,older people. He elaborates possibly In a KMUD interview not transcribed ,I think he may mention older people are less likely to get addicted,you can email him if you must.

There is ,"no fact" ,that nicotine is not very addictive,using the term ,"not very addictive", makes no sense.
It likes saying using alcohol daily to lower inflammation (which Peat shows it does) is not very addictive.
Like saying, Using Cocaine daily is not very addictive because of its demthylating effects,Peat shows the Caines to have positive effects in demthylating.
It's all about context ,if your in a desperate situation ,the above might be helpful. The majority of people are not in such situations. He is clear in the quote when he says ,"protective in some situations."

You have also not covered nicotine leaving people with withdrawals, you stated ,"not very addictive" and use caffeine as analogy. Ray Peat recommends COFFEE most of the time,COFFEE contains more than caffeine, he sees COFFEE as food. Nicotine is not FOOD.
People need nicotine fixes a lot more than any other Peat recommended substance or they go into withdrawal.

You say ,"Peat recommended nicotine for older people", that's what I said ,in a certain CONTEXT Ray Peat recommends it,your changing this to a recommendation over everything else he recommends.
He does recommend many more coherent substances to older people regularly.

Your welcome to use nicotine but the title of the thread says,"nicotine through a Peat prism", you need to change that IMO because it implies he is endorsing nicotine as the go to substance.
.You have also recommended people use niacinamide and aspirin to counter any negative effects, for me this is pointless for the sake of nicotine.

Nicotine does not compare in nootropic effects to pregnenlone,b1 ,t3 ,niacinamide or theanine IMO. You don't need this stuff every 2 hours, once adjusted to t3 you can take it with meals.

 

[Drareg]

Yeah, but in addition to a fat-free diet. I'm reintroducing fat.


I'm suspended nicotine for a week until my E2 recovers. I just made a transdermal solution over on my shelf with 0.15 mgs/drop.


He says that it can be protective but also contributes to premature aging of the skin.

What's your take on low estrogen and libido Dave? I heard high estrogen can cause bizarre sexual appetite.

 

[DaveFoster]

What's your take on low estrogen and libido Dave? I heard high estrogen can cause bizarre sexual appetite.

The more I play with my hormone levels, the more I think there are two kinds of male libido.

There's the physical urge to procreate, the urge to release tension; this is responsible for rape and is stimulated by serotonin, nitric oxide, cortisol, and estrogen.

Then there's mental attraction, and positive competitive drive; this is mediated by primarily dopamine, oxytocin, and accompanying hormones testosterone and DHT.

 

[Dopamine]

You just quoted the quote from the email exchange,older people. He elaborates possibly In a KMUD interview not transcribed ,I think he may mention older people are less likely to get addicted,you can email him if you must.

There is ,"no fact" ,that nicotine is not very addictive,using the term ,"not very addictive", makes no sense.
It likes saying using alcohol daily to lower inflammation (which Peat shows it does) is not very addictive.
Like saying, Using Cocaine daily is not very addictive because of its demthylating effects,Peat shows the Caines to have positive effects in demthylating.
It's all about context ,if your in a desperate situation ,the above might be helpful. The majority of people are not in such situations. He is clear in the quote when he says ,"protective in some situations."

You have also not covered nicotine leaving people with withdrawals, you stated ,"not very addictive" and use caffeine as analogy. Ray Peat recommends COFFEE most of the time,COFFEE contains more than caffeine, he sees COFFEE as food. Nicotine is not FOOD.
People need nicotine fixes a lot more than any other Peat recommended substance or they go into withdrawal.

You say ,"Peat recommended nicotine for older people", that's what I said ,in a certain CONTEXT Ray Peat recommends it,your changing this to a recommendation over everything else he recommends.
He does recommend many more coherent substances to older people regularly.

Your welcome to use nicotine but the title of the thread says,"nicotine through a Peat prism", you need to change that IMO because it implies he is endorsing nicotine as the go to substance.
.You have also recommended people use niacinamide and aspirin to counter any negative effects, for me this is pointless for the sake of nicotine.

Nicotine does not compare in nootropic effects to pregnenlone,b1 ,t3 ,niacinamide or theanine IMO. You don't need this stuff every 2 hours, once adjusted to t3 you can take it with meals.

The point of my original post was mostly to compare nicotine with caffeine... A drug that Ray Peat has written extensively on and generally recommends. We can argue details all day however the point i'm trying to make is that nicotine has very similar effects on the body as caffeine. Nicotine shows similar trends in hormone production/release, dopamine release, serotonin uptake, stress response, neuroprotection, ffa release, glycolysis... etc... I haven't seen any evidence to show that caffeine is safer or superior to nicotine... All I have seen are similarities. I'm not claiming nicotine is a "superdrug" that can do no harm... I'm trying to show how similar nicotine is to caffeine and that they can likely be used interchangebly in the same context. I have never tried nicotine btw and I am trying to come from an unbiased perspective.

 

[bobbybobbob]

The point of my original post was mostly to compare nicotine with caffeine... A drug that Ray Peat has written extensively on and generally recommends. We can argue details all day however the point i'm trying to make is that nicotine has very similar effects on the body as caffeine. Nicotine shows similar trends in hormone production/release, dopamine release, serotonin uptake, stress response, neuroprotection, ffa release, glycolysis... etc... I haven't seen any evidence to show that caffeine is safer or superior to nicotine... All I have seen are similarities. I'm not claiming nicotine is a "superdrug" that can do no harm... I'm trying to show how similar nicotine is to caffeine and that they can likely be used interchangebly in the same context. I have never tried nicotine btw and I am trying to come from an unbiased perspective.

I don't have anything scientific to say but as a rube user nicotine and caffeine seem obviously different to me. I don't even really "feel" caffeine. I don't experience cravings and I don't experience withdrawal. On a day to day basis I just notice caffeine helps keep things ticking over better. So I drink four cups of strong coffee and two cups of tea.

And by caffeine I mean tea and coffee, which we all know are both far more than just caffeine.

I only crave tobacco (tiny snorts of Dholakia White snuff in my case) when under stress and short of sleep. It's insanely valuable for pulling long hours and mustering concentration when you wouldn't otherwise be able to manage.

On any given day I will always enjoy a good coffee or tea. The idea of using tobacco on vacation doesn't even cross my mind. For me it is very clearly a substance that helps to cope with short term stress.