Nicotine [Through A Peat Prism?]

[Dopamine]

I prefer gum, and I think patches are ideal without the gastrointestinal upset.

What dose do you think nicotine should be maintained at to attenuate lipolysis and "acclimate" the organism to its effects. It has a very short half-life, and I'm feeling ideal at very low doses (.5 mg or so).

Also, there's evidence that lipolysis brought on by nicotine does not trigger through adrenaline, but rather pro-oxidative means.
Source: Nicotine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

I'm still researching dosages for nicotine. I think niacinamide and nicotine would have fantastic synergy and should be taken together. It seems likely that any negative effects nicotine may have will be eliminated with the right dosage of niacinamide. Niacinamide inhibits lipolysis, encourages glucose oxidation, inhibits cancer metastasis, inhibits nitric oxide etc... Also every dose of nicotine should be taken with a decent amount of carbs or a meal beforehand. I would experiment with varying doses of niacinamide from 100mg-1000mg with every dose of nicotine. Aspirin may also increase the synergy- you could add 80-325mg aspirin to the mix and see how that goes. I would probaly just keep taking the low doses if it feels right and be consistent with taking it everyday. I would treat nicotine similar to how I treat caffeine.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm still researching dosages for nicotine. I think niacinamide and nicotine would have fantastic synergy and should be taken together. It seems likely that any negative effects nicotine may have will be eliminated with the right dosage of niacinamide. Niacinamide inhibits lipolysis, encourages glucose oxidation, inhibits cancer metastasis, inhibits nitric oxide etc... Also every dose of nicotine should be taken with a decent amount of carbs or a meal beforehand. I would experiment with varying doses of niacinamide from 100mg-1000mg with every dose of nicotine. Aspirin may also increase the synergy- you could add 80-325mg aspirin to the mix and see how that goes. I would probaly just keep taking the low doses if it feels right and be consistent with taking it everyday. I would treat nicotine similar to how I treat caffeine.

Niacinamide definitely helps.

As far as eating, it's necessary. I think nicotine may be even more potent at raising metabolism than caffeine, so it's a must to balance your blood sugar.

Oddly, caffeine suppresses my appetite while nicotine makes me ravenously hungry.

 

[Dopamine]

Thanks for the link! My son just gave me his e-cig to try, 12 mg peppermint flavor. It's different but I'm sure I'll get used to it.

I think you should do lots of research into the matter but understand that e-cigarettes are a relatively new product and the long term effects aren't really known. Nicotine patches or gum are potentially safer and have been around longer. That being said a lot of people have success quitting smoking through e-cigarettes and it does reduce lots of the negative symptoms of smoking and I believe its safer. I shouldn't give my opinion on the matter because we can't know for sure without more testing and i'm not a doctor. Good luck

 

[NathanK]

I had not smoked for 29 years but I started again this past year. This began during a stressful situation that is still not resolved and I was most likely not at optimal health at the time due to the situation. It initially was just a stress reliever but has now also become social and habitual. I went on a trip for 10 days and did not smoke at all but once I returned to the stress I picked it back up. I have a love/hate relationship with smoking and hope that the stress will eventually lift and I can quit.

Brutal. I think many former tobacco users can relate. Really helps you empathize when alcoholics say, "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic". I think it has something to do with early conditioning at a time when we were still creating our homeostasis of what we consider normal.

I personally hated ecigs. After a week or two, they made my lungs feel like crap and caughed all the time, which id never done before. Nicorette was the best. I quit totally after maybe 10 pieces. You def dont need to follow their 6 or 8 week plan. I just chewed a piece when I felt a hankering. I might use one or 2 pieces a day at 2mg each and would take them out after I got that first hit so a single piece would last a half day.

 

[Dopamine]

stopping smoking Tabacco will provide benefit, Is it not still smoking using the vaporiser, less toxic yes but still smoking?
Is it not semantics here?
Most people are quitting tabocco, positive ,the negative is ,they now have to VAPE every 2 hours or less, vape/smoke. They want to ban them on planes. Vaping potentially has negative effects.

Has anybody quit vaping nicotine yet ? People I know haven't ,vaping is a lesser evil,Slight positive. The obvious negative is when they can't get a VAPE every hour they are withdrawing IMO.

You posit that nicotine is just like caffeine ,you want to view through the "peat prism" , im guessing then that concluding that there is not enough research on it does not justify using it as an adaptogen,it does not compare to caffeine/coffee ,keep in mind that coffee has more in it than caffeine.
Health risks of e-cigarettes emerge

I'm not aware of where Ray Peat is completely against nicotine, it just seems clear to not be the best adaptogen oven to use based on current evidence.
How do you explain upset stomach and nausea from nicotine?

You are right. The long term effects of vaping really aren't known and its important for people to be aware of that. I revised some of my statements earlier in the thread because I don't want to sound like i'm recommending e-cigarettes. I think patches and gum are likely safer options (patches probaly being the safest as gum may contain artificial sweeteners). There is lots of research on nicotine. there is not a lot of research on e-cigarettes- so it is not my place to recommend them.

 

[NathanK]

You are right. The long term effects of vaping really aren't known and its important for people to be aware of that. I revised some of my statements earlier in the thread because I don't want to sound like i'm recommending e-cigarettes. I think patches and gum are likely safer options (patches probaly being the safest as gum may contain artificial sweeteners). There is lots of research on nicotine. there is not a lot of research on e-cigarettes- so it is not my place to recommend them.

If youre going to take nicotine, I think the best method would be the lozenges or maybe the gum. The patches burn the skin in many, if not most, people and ecigs I really did not make my lungs feel healthy by any means.

 

[Drareg]

Brutal. I think many former tobacco users can relate. Really helps you empathize when alcoholics say, "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic". I think it has something to do with early conditioning at a time when we were still creating our homeostasis of what we consider normal.

I personally hated ecigs. After a week or two, they made my lungs feel like crap and caughed all the time, which id never done before. Nicorette was the best. I quit totally after maybe 10 pieces. You def dont need to follow their 6 or 8 week plan. I just chewed a piece when I felt a hankering. I might use one or 2 pieces a day at 2mg each and would take them out after I got that first hit so a single piece would last a half day.

Was it willpower then mainly that caused you to quit, lots of examples of people who just adjust cognitively to the reality of risk of smoking and stop,without patches/gum.

Your on to something with early conditioning here.....
Epigentics , nicotine has strong hdac inhibiting effects which in turn allows for genetic expression, niacinamide does the same but is more coherent and subtle, phenibut,valproic acid are stronger and they have addiction potential.

There is a line to cross it seems when we consider adaptogen, it's probably withdrawal that doesn't quickly leave you very down which seems to be nicotine so category, a fix required every hour. If I had to take niacinamide,theanin evitamin k2 etc every hour ,I'm not sure I'd see the point.

 

[HDD]

Yes, I am aware the verdict is still out on them and I am going to try it as a step toward quitting. I have used the nicotine lozenge but it really upset my stomach so isn't something I am keen on using.

 

[HDD]

I don't think my use of cigarettes as a teen was for stress. Mostly being cool to begin with and then became habitual. I quit cold turkey when I was pregnant with my first child without any effort. It definitely is a stress reliever for me now, so possibly some of the supplements in the Peat toolbox would help.

 

[DaveFoster]

Was it willpower then mainly that caused you to quit, lots of examples of people who just adjust cognitively to the reality of risk of smoking and stop,without patches/gum.

Your on to something with early conditioning here.....
Epigentics , nicotine has strong hdac inhibiting effects which in turn allows for genetic expression, niacinamide does the same but is more coherent and subtle, phenibut,valproic acid are stronger and they have addiction potential.

There is a line to cross it seems when we consider adaptogen, it's probably withdrawal that doesn't quickly leave you very down which seems to be nicotine so category, a fix required every hour. If I had to take niacinamide,theanin evitamin k2 etc every hour ,I'm not sure I'd see the point.

You make a good point.

The common doses of nicotine lie fairly close to the LD50. (60 mg will kill a male IIRC), and most cigarettes contain 1 mg with people smoking a couple packs a day. Of course, the half-life reduces the danger.

I'm finding the benefits of nicotine come well after the drug leaves by about 2 to 3 hours.

 

[Dopamine]

I don't think my use of cigarettes as a teen was for stress. Mostly being cool to begin with and then became habitual. I quit cold turkey when I was pregnant with my first child without any effort. It definitely is a stress reliever for me now, so possibly some of the supplements in the Peat toolbox would help.

I posted several studies showing progesterone supplements decrease nicotine cravings. Progesterone increases during pregnancy which may be why you were able to quit so easily. You may be compensating for low progesterone by smoking because smoking increases progesterone. I would read Ray Peats articles on progesterone to learn more about it.

 

[Drareg]

I don't think my use of cigarettes as a teen was for stress. Mostly being cool to begin with and then became habitual. I quit cold turkey when I was pregnant with my first child without any effort. It definitely is a stress reliever for me now, so possibly some of the supplements in the Peat toolbox would help.

Have you tried niacinamide 100mg around 3 times per day as a substitute? If your liver is in a good state you can higher.

 

[HDD]

That is interesting about progesterone during pregnancy possibly being a factor in quitting. I would never have made that connection. This even could be why I picked up smoking initially when I was a teen. I do have progesterone that I used to use faithfully every night and then some but I have not been consistent in quite some time. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[HDD]

Have you tried niacinamide 100mg around 3 times per day as a substitute? If your liver is in a good state you can higher.

I currently have 500 mg pills that I take occasionally. I go back and forth on whether it's too high of a dose.

 

[Dopamine]

You make a good point.

The common doses of nicotine lie fairly close to the LD50. (60 mg will kill a male IIRC), and most cigarettes contain 1 mg with people smoking a couple packs a day. Of course, the half-life reduces the danger.

I'm finding the benefits of nicotine come well after the drug leaves by about 2 to 3 hours.

What benefits are you experiencing? Do you find it similar to caffeine? Any side effects?

 

[DaveFoster]

What benefits are you experiencing? Do you find it similar to caffeine? Any side effects?

Side effects include nausea and indigestion, along with slight loss of appetite when this occurs.

Enhanced cognition, higher metabolism, assertiveness, and sociability all enhanced. Bouncing off the walls in the gym.

Fat is coming off rapidly, gyno going away, and muscle mass increasing. All very androgenic.

 

[NathanK]

Was it willpower then mainly that caused you to quit, lots of examples of people who just adjust cognitively to the reality of risk of smoking and stop,without patches/gum.

Your on to something with early conditioning here.....
Epigentics , nicotine has strong hdac inhibiting effects which in turn allows for genetic expression, niacinamide does the same but is more coherent and subtle, phenibut,valproic acid are stronger and they have addiction potential.

There is a line to cross it seems when we consider adaptogen, it's probably withdrawal that doesn't quickly leave you very down which seems to be nicotine so category, a fix required every hour. If I had to take niacinamide,theanin evitamin k2 etc every hour ,I'm not sure I'd see the point.

Quitting isn't actually that hard. A few weeks of some discomfort, which is easily allayed by a little nicorette (which I'd only ever used my last time), but the kicker is the habit and associations created with tobacco (mine was any focused work and chewing tobacco). I'd quit tons of times over a decade. Multiple times for over a year. It doesn't take much to reel you back in. You're confident, you think you're smart, you beat it for good, and then casually you share a smoke with an old friend--"BAM" you're right back at it. Hard to explain unless you've actually had an addiction. It's like explaining sex to a virgin; you just can't. I'm sure there's some physiological process occurring, but I just call it a mind virus. Insidious stuff. You just have to reconcile that you can never touch the stuff again.

 

[Drareg]

Quitting isn't actually that hard. A few weeks of some discomfort, which is easily allayed by a little nicorette (which I'd only ever used my last time), but the kicker is the habit and associations created with tobacco (mine was any focused work and chewing tobacco). I'd quit tons of times over a decade. Multiple times for over a year. It doesn't take much to reel you back in. You're confident, you think you're smart, you beat it for good, and then casually you share a smoke with an old friend--"BAM" you're right back at it. Hard to explain unless you've actually had an addiction. It's like explaining sex to a virgin; you just can't. I'm sure there's some physiological process occurring, but I just call it a mind virus. Insidious stuff. You just have to reconcile that you can never touch the stuff again.

Yeah, it's probably an overactive system ,underlying hypothyroid or some other stress hormone out of balance, it will hit that straight away. Sometimes you begin to want to do anything to subdue the body,many people live like this until old age,high pressure jobs.

It's interesting when people have done lsd,psilocybin they claim to no longer need their addiction, interesting and ties in with Peats advice.

 

[Dopamine]

Side effects include nausea and indigestion, along with slight loss of appetite when this occurs.

Enhanced cognition, higher metabolism, assertiveness, and sociability all enhanced. Bouncing off the walls in the gym.

Fat is coming off rapidly, gyno going away, and muscle mass increasing. All very androgenic.

Interesting, thanks for the info. I read those side effects are really common with nicotine gum. I think they are less common with other routes of absorption and I wonder if they would go away in time... I know artifical sweeteners in gum can cause nausea, maybe thats part of the problem...

Apparently nicotine gum is supposed to be chewed a certain way to prevent side effects. I found this on the nicorette website:

• Use the “Chew and Park” method: Chew Nicorette Gum slowly until you can taste the nicotine or feel a tingling sensation in your mouth. Stop chewing and park the piece of Nicorette between your cheek and gums. After about a minute, when the tingling is almost gone, start chewing again. Repeat this process until the tingle is gone (about 30 minutes).

 

[DaveFoster]

Interesting, thanks for the info. I read those side effects are really common with nicotine gum. I think they are less common with other routes of absorption and I wonder if they would go away in time... I know artifical sweeteners in gum can cause nausea, maybe thats part of the problem...

Apparently nicotine gum is supposed to be chewed a certain way to prevent side effects. I found this on the nicorette website:

• Use the “Chew and Park” method: Chew Nicorette Gum slowly until you can taste the nicotine or feel a tingling sensation in your mouth. Stop chewing and park the piece of Nicorette between your cheek and gums. After about a minute, when the tingling is almost gone, start chewing again. Repeat this process until the tingle is gone (about 30 minutes).

I chew and park. As far as a comedown, there's a noticeable one about an hour after stopping, and then it completely subsides in about 2 hours.