Nicotine [Through A Peat Prism?]

[Drareg]

Tangent. I'm not advocating for nicotine, but ...

I've never had to do nicotine withdrawal, but caffeine withdrawal is not trivial for everyone.


Similar amounts of caffeine would be a pretty high risk too.

I agree,just my own personal observation, still don't get how nicotine is better than other substances, Im interested in it because of its hdac inhibiting effects .

Articles like this make we question it,when you consider the lobbying power companies like nicotine companies have, articles like this are worth further investigation .

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/opinion/lethal-liquid-nicotine.html?_r=0

 

[Blossom]

Just tried 0.5 mg nicotine via gum. (1/4 of a 2 mg piece). I stupidly swallowed the first few mouthfuls and got a stomach ache for about 5 minutes.

I think that even 0.5 mg is too much.

0.25 mg would probably be an ideal dose.

Whenever I used nicotine gum I would spit out the very first juice/saliva instead of swallowing it and that solved the stomach ache issue for me. There was something about the bolus of saliva from the initial chewing when it hit my stomach that always made me nauseous. I'm not sure if it was the nicotine itself or something else in the gum.

 

[Dopamine]

Not DNA damage; the regenerative abilities of the skin and tissues. Even Ray Peat cites this, and it's well known.

Nicotine also promotes cancer metastatis; this is for certain. Its lipolytic effect contributes to this effect.

It's a stressor, but a very mild one, and there are benefits.

Caffeine possesses most of the benefits without any of the downsides, and there are superior options to nicotine, but you could do much worse.

There may be benefits to a metabolite of nicotine, cotinine.

Nicotine promotes angiogenesis and therefore tumor metastasis in the short term (acute use) probaly through increasing FFA and stress hormones. Chronic use however has been shown to actually do the opposite and impair angiogenesis.
Chronic exposure to nicotine impairs cholinergic angiogenesis. - PubMed - NCBI
"In conclusion, the current study shows for the first time that chronic exposure to nicotine impairs cholinergic angiogenesis, an effect mediated by downregulation of the vascular nAChR, and attenuation of nicotine-induced VEGF release. These studies may explain the impairment in angiogenic processes observed in long-term smokers."

If long term nicotine impairs angiogenesis (required for wound healing) then yes nicotine may impair wound healing. Estrogen and inflammation are necessary for wound healing, both of which are lowered by nicotine in chronic use. Aspirin can also impair wound healing.
Acta Pharmacologica Sinica - Nicotine and inflammatory neurological disorders

Also claiming nicotine can cause similar physical/neurological damage to amphetamine is completely unfounded and fear mongering

 

[Peata]

Seems like some of the confusion of the plus/negatives of nicotine comes from lumping it in with cigarette smoking, which involves, well, smoke and so many other chemicals that can be harmful.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I've never become addicted to nicotine and question how easy it is to become addicted.

I smoke 2 - 4 cigars some days, and many days or weeks none at all. I've always been that way.

Maybe it's n=1, true, but I know lots of people who smoke an occasional cigarette or 3 and are not addicted.

 

[Dopamine]

Nicotine lowers fatty acid oxidation by inhibiting expression of the SIRT1 gene just like niacinamide. SIRT1 is increased by resveratrol and Ray has the suspicion it may promote cancer. Read this post by Haidut:
Niacinamide lowers fatty acid oxidation by inhibiting SIRT1 | Ray Peat Forum

This is more evidence for nicotine being potentially cancer protective.

 

[Dopamine]

So far I haven't seen any evidence condemning chronic nicotine use

 

[michael94]

Not DNA damage; the regenerative abilities of the skin and tissues. Even Ray Peat cites this, and it's well known.

Nicotine also promotes cancer metastatis; this is for certain. Its lipolytic effect contributes to this effect.

It's a stressor, but a very mild one, and there are benefits.

Caffeine possesses most of the benefits without any of the downsides, and there are superior options to nicotine, but you could do much worse.

There may be benefits to a metabolite of nicotine, cotinine.

You are right cancer growth can be fueled by lipolysis...IF lipolysis is liberating high amounts of omega-6 PUFA. If the fat is saturated I don't see how that would promote tumor growth. The omega 6 fats are excellent at doing so, but SFA and MUFA I've not seen evidence for. This is in line with Peat's thoughts on SatFat.

So I think in those that have decent liver health and relatively low PUFA stores the cancer promoting effect of nicotine is moot. I would expect the same sort of damage to come from those overloaded in PUFA using liberal amounts of caffeine.

 

[HDD]

I had not smoked for 29 years but I started again this past year. This began during a stressful situation that is still not resolved and I was most likely not at optimal health at the time due to the situation. It initially was just a stress reliever but has now also become social and habitual. I went on a trip for 10 days and did not smoke at all but once I returned to the stress I picked it back up. I have a love/hate relationship with smoking and hope that the stress will eventually lift and I can quit.

 

[Peata]

I had not smoked for 29 years but I started again this past year. This began during a stressful situation that is still not resolved and I was most likely not at optimal health at the time due to the situation. It initially was just a stress reliever but has now also become social and habitual. I went on a trip for 10 days and did not smoke at all but once I returned to the stress I picked it back up. I have a love/hate relationship with smoking and hope that the stress will eventually lift and I can quit.

Sorry you're going through so much stress, HDD.

I have read that tobacco use, even smoking, does have benefits if one can get "purer" cigarettes (American Spirit is one I've seen rec'd). It's just that so many companies add crap to their tobacco may be a big part of the problem with smoking.

 

[DaveFoster]

So far I haven't seen any evidence condemning chronic nicotine use

Histologic evaluation of the effect of nicotine administration on bone regeneration: a study in dogs

"nicotine stimulated DNA synthesis, and inhibited collagen and ALPase synthesis in chick calvarial osteoblast-like cells."

Transdermal nicotine patch enhances type I collagen synthesis in abstinent smokers. - PubMed - NCBI

"During abstinence, the type I procollagen level increased by 18% in the transdermal nicotine patches group and decreased by 10% in the placebo group (p<0.05). We conclude that 20 days of abstinence from smoking does not affect collagen deposition in granulation tissue. However, in abstinent smokers, transdermal nicotine patches appears to increase type I collagen synthesis."

You may be right about cigarettes being the problem and not nicotine in itself.

http://content.onlinejacc.org/article.aspx?articleid=1121737

"Cigarette smoking increases blood coagulability, a major risk factor for acute cardiovascular events, whereas transdermal nicotine does not appear to do so."

"Results of studies of the effects of nicotine on lipids in animals are conflicting. Injection of nicotine or feeding of nicotine has been reported ([83, 84, 88]) to increase total cholesterol in rabbits and monkeys receiving a high cholesterol diet. Nicotine feeding in squirrel monkeys for 2 years has been shown ([94]) to increase plasma levels of LDL. The mechanism in monkeys included both accelerated synthesis of LDL through lipolysis of HDL and VLDL and impaired clearance of LDL. Of importance in interpreting these animal studies is that high doses of nicotine have been administered, often by an oral route, and without measurement of blood levels of nicotine to determine exposure adequately."

I keep finding contradictions to popular mantra. I think you're right about nicotine.

 

[Dopamine]

I had not smoked for 29 years but I started again this past year. This began during a stressful situation that is still not resolved and I was most likely not at optimal health at the time due to the situation. It initially was just a stress reliever but has now also become social and habitual. I went on a trip for 10 days and did not smoke at all but once I returned to the stress I picked it back up. I have a love/hate relationship with smoking and hope that the stress will eventually lift and I can quit.

Why don't you try e-cigarettes, nicotine gum, or patches? Many people have a lot of success switching from smoking to nicotine replacements then slowly tapering down their nicotine dosage to the point where they can quit. There is not a lot of research into e-cigarettes so I think patches or gum would be the safest option.

 

[HDD]

Thanks so much, Peata. I appreciate your kind words. I did try the American Spirit once but they do cost a little more and I always intend to quit. My husband keeps telling me he is going to buy me a machine to roll my own. It is somewhat embarrassing and I feel like I've just confessed.

 

[HDD]

Why don't you try e-cigarettes? Many people have a lot of success switching from smoking to e-cigarettes then slowly tapering down their nicotine dosage to the point where they can quit.

I might do this. I think I read in the posts above that it is safer?

 

[Dopamine]

Histologic evaluation of the effect of nicotine administration on bone regeneration: a study in dogs

"nicotine stimulated DNA synthesis, and inhibited collagen and ALPase synthesis in chick calvarial osteoblast-like cells."

Transdermal nicotine patch enhances type I collagen synthesis in abstinent smokers. - PubMed - NCBI

"During abstinence, the type I procollagen level increased by 18% in the transdermal nicotine patches group and decreased by 10% in the placebo group (p<0.05). We conclude that 20 days of abstinence from smoking does not affect collagen deposition in granulation tissue. However, in abstinent smokers, transdermal nicotine patches appears to increase type I collagen synthesis."

You may be right about cigarettes being the problem and not nicotine in itself.

If I am reading the study right- The dogs began receiving the nicotine 1 day after surgery. The beginning stages of nicotine use are shown to raise stress biomarkers which accompanied by the stress of surgery would only compound the metabolic stress. If the dogs were pre-treated with nicotine several months or even weeks before surgery I doubt they would have experienced negative effects. Introducing a stressor when the body is already going through major stress will certainly result in delayed bone healing. Also conventional dog feed is generally very poor and guaranteed the dogs were consuming large amounts of polyunsaturated fats on a regular basis.

Vitamin E reversed nicotine-induced toxic effects on bone biochemical markers in male rats
Here is a study showing vitamin E eliminates the negative effects sometimes seen of nicotine on bone growth probaly due to combating stress and FFA.

 

[Dopamine]

I might do this. I think I read in the posts above that it is safer?

It is likely safer but there aren't enough long term studies to truly know for sure.

 

[ecstatichamster]

You are right cancer growth can be fueled by lipolysis...IF lipolysis is liberating high amounts of omega-6 PUFA. If the fat is saturated I don't see how that would promote tumor growth. The omega 6 fats are excellent at doing so, but SFA and MUFA I've not seen evidence for. This is in line with Peat's thoughts on SatFat.

So I think in those that have decent liver health and relatively low PUFA stores the cancer promoting effect of nicotine is moot. I would expect the same sort of damage to come from those overloaded in PUFA using liberal amounts of caffeine.

amazing study, thank you

 

[DaveFoster]

Vaping is 95% safer than smoking and could lead to the demise of the traditional cigarette, Public Health England (PHE) has said in the first official recognition that e-cigarettes are less damaging to health than smoking tobacco. • /r/worldnews
You should check out this link and read the comments. People experience a lot of success and save a lot of money by switching to e-cigarettes. Also people experience huge improvements in health. I'm not a doctor and I'm not trying to sell you on e-cigarettes but its worth looking into

I prefer gum, and I think patches are ideal without the gastrointestinal upset.

What dose do you think nicotine should be maintained at to attenuate lipolysis and "acclimate" the organism to its effects. It has a very short half-life, and I'm feeling ideal at very low doses (.5 mg or so).

Also, there's evidence that lipolysis brought on by nicotine does not trigger through adrenaline, but rather pro-oxidative means.
Source: Nicotine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

 

[HDD]

Vaping is 95% safer than smoking and could lead to the demise of the traditional cigarette, Public Health England (PHE) has said in the first official recognition that e-cigarettes are less damaging to health than smoking tobacco. • /r/worldnews
You should check out this link and read the comments. People experience a lot of success and save a lot of money by switching to e-cigarettes. Also people experience huge improvements in health. I'm not a doctor and I'm not trying to sell you on e-cigarettes but its worth looking into

Thanks for the link! My son just gave me his e-cig to try, 12 mg peppermint flavor. It's different but I'm sure I'll get used to it.

 

[Drareg]

Vaping is 95% safer than smoking and could lead to the demise of the traditional cigarette, Public Health England (PHE) has said in the first official recognition that e-cigarettes are less damaging to health than smoking tobacco. • /r/worldnews
You should check out this link and read the comments. People experience a lot of success and save a lot of money by switching to e-cigarettes. Also people experience huge improvements in health. I'm not a doctor and I'm not trying to sell you on e-cigarettes but its worth looking into

stopping smoking Tabacco will provide benefit, Is it not still smoking using the vaporiser, less toxic yes but still smoking?
Is it not semantics here?
Most people are quitting tabocco, positive ,the negative is ,they now have to VAPE every 2 hours or less, vape/smoke. They want to ban them on planes. Vaping potentially has negative effects.

Has anybody quit vaping nicotine yet ? People I know haven't ,vaping is a lesser evil,Slight positive. The obvious negative is when they can't get a VAPE every hour they are withdrawing IMO.

You posit that nicotine is just like caffeine ,you want to view through the "peat prism" , im guessing then that concluding that there is not enough research on it does not justify using it as an adaptogen,it does not compare to caffeine/coffee ,keep in mind that coffee has more in it than caffeine.
Health risks of e-cigarettes emerge

I'm not aware of where Ray Peat is completely against nicotine, it just seems clear to not be the best adaptogen oven to use based on current evidence.
How do you explain upset stomach and nausea from nicotine?