Niacinamide: Safe Upper Limit?

[zanolachino]

In theory, niacinamide ought to be just what I need. I am trying to:

1. Kick-start my metabolism back into burning sugar after years stuck in a very sick, low-energy, carbohydrate-intolerant state

2. Address chronic nervous system agitation and insomnia

For a few weeks now I have been taking 2g niacinamide twice per day for a total of 4g daily. It seems to be helping me tolerate at least a little more sugar, and one longstanding health issue (an "autoimmune" skin condition) is improving.

Significantly, however, this dosage of niacinamide has no sedative or anxiolytic effect on me whatsoever.

I am inclined to see if taking more will bring more benefit. Specifically, I would be delighted to arrive at a dose that noticeably calms my nervous system and helps me sleep (as niacinamide is supposed to do).

But since I am already taking a fairly large daily dose, I would like to ask:

Does anyone see danger in pushing the dosage higher and higher? Is there an argument for an upper limit?

Also, are there other nutrients which might be in specific danger of depletion with long-term high-dose niacinamide use?

 

[Brian]

I've never dosed niacinamide that high and I don't think there is a benefit to going extremely high unless in some kind of experimental treatment. Something else might be missing in your system.

What else are you supplementing? B1, B6 and B7 go well with niacinamide and assist in carb metabolism and mitochondrial function. Aspirin also compliments niacinamide and lowers the required dose of both to lower free fatty acids.

I associate deep relaxation with parasympathetic nervous system activity. In part from magnesium stores being high and calcium being properly moved out of soft tissue into bone. So vitamin A, D, K, and sufficient tissue progesterone play a role with that too.

 

[BobbyDukes]

I become fairly tolerant to it pretty quickly. I can take 5-10g and sit there wide awake

Initially though, the sedative effects were pretty pronounced (despite my pessimism, due to my previous abuse of GABAergics).

I was hoping it was going to benefit my insomnia problem, but it hasn't even made a dent. It's a cool supplement on paper though, and I would take it (in sensible doses) on the advice of Dr Peat, if I ever remembered to take it (lol).

If I take it very occasionally, it can have a sleep inducing effect. But everyday, and it doesn't do anything (even with lots of sugar).

 

[aguilaroja]

...niacinamide ought to be just what I need

I am inclined to see if taking more will bring more benefit. Specifically, I would be delighted to arrive at a dose that noticeably calms my nervous system and helps me sleep (as niacinamide is supposed to do)....

Before increasing the amount of niacinamide, it might be interesting to use the same daily total amount but dividing into more frequent doses.

Brian's point is also well taken that if the range of several grams or more of niacinamide per day is reached, finding other restorative factors may have a higher yield than increasing niacinamide.

The 20th century physician who probably had the most direct experience with niacinamide was William Kaufman. He recommended niacinamide in practice for more than half a century, I think. I don't recall Kaufman using much more than 4000 mg total per day, ev

He found that in effectively treating osteoarthritis, that more frequent dosing was helpful:

http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman6.html

"It has been found in the treatment of joint dysfunction that the manner in which 
the daily dosage of niacinamide is divided has an important bearing on the therapeutic results achieved; e.g., 300 mg niacinamide given three times daily (900 mg/24 hours) is inferior in its therapeutic action to 150 mg niacinamide administered every 3 hours for 6 daily doses (900 mg/24 hours)."

http://www.doctoryourself.com/JOM1.html
"Kaufman's findings were both plain and elegant. The greater the stiffness, the more frequent the doses. Severely crippled arthritic patients needed up to a total of 4,000 mg/day. Divided into 10 doses per day, in one to three months, patients could now get out of their chair, or bed."

http://www.doctoryourself.com/biblio_kaufman.html

It is understood that osteoarthritis is not the concern here, and that it is more involved to use frequent dosing. Still, the guidance of Kaufman's long experience is worth thinking about.

There's been interest for years in topical niacinamide (nicotinamide) for improving skin conditions, for instance:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23763270
Topical nicotinamide for seborrheic dermatitis: an open randomized study.
Fabbrocini G1, Cantelli M, Monfrecola G.
J Dermatolog Treat. 2014 Jun;25(3):241-5. doi: 10.3109/09546634.2013.814754. Epub 2013 Jul 5.

Of course, niacinamide is one component of haidut's Solban formulation. (I know haidut only from this forum and have no financial connection in raising this point)

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewt ... f=3&t=5830

There are many posts on this forum about niacinamide experiences, research and effects.

 

[Makrosky]

You can take a look at this :
viewtopic.php?t=8146

 

[Giraffe]

post 108668 Does anyone see danger in pushing the dosage higher and higher? Is there an argument for an upper limit?

See this topic.

 

[zanolachino]

Thanks to everyone who responded so far.

I should have mentioned that I have been taking other B vitamins together with the niacinamide, and it may well be the whole package that has led to the modest improvements I have noticed. Specifically:

a.m.:

B1 (thiamin mononitrate) 250mg
B1 (allithiamine) 50mg
B2 (R5P) 36.5mg
B3 (niacinamide) 2g
B6 (P5P) 20mg
biotin 8mg

p.m.:

B1 (thiamin mononitrate) 500mg
B3 (niacinamide) 2g
B5 500mg
pantethine 450mg

My reason for separating the biotin and B5 is that I remember reading that they compete for absorption.

I also eat liver and oysters regularly and take a sublingual B12 (both hydroxocobalamin and adenosylcobalamin) on occasion. (For what it is worth, I have discovered the hard way that methylcobalamin and methylfolate make things go haywire, but these are not generally recommended around here, anyway.)

Aspirin is tricky for me. It seems to have some positive effects, but it also clearly exacerbates my longstanding tinnitus. I just posted something about this here.

There's no question that, from a Peat perspective, my diet remains too high in fat and too low in carbohydrate. Even with all of this niacinamide, B1, biotin, and so on, I would have to imagine that the Randle cycle is preventing proper sugar metabolism.

The problem is, every time I have tried to shift this balance in the past, no matter how gradually, very severe blood sugar problems ensued. Low-carb was the only thing that kept blood sugar stable, even as low-carb created more and more problems of its own. I am hoping that this B vitamin regimen will be the key to escaping this Catch-22.

I am also trying to increase caffeine, though I am not very tolerant. An experiment with methylene blue may be called for.

I welcome additional thoughts, particularly from anyone who was actually stuck in the Warburg quicksand and managed to escape.

 

[blob69]

Thanks to everyone who responded so far.

I should have mentioned that I have been taking other B vitamins together with the niacinamide, and it may well be the whole package that has led to the modest improvements I have noticed. Specifically:

a.m.:

B1 (thiamin mononitrate) 250mg
B1 (allithiamine) 50mg
B2 (R5P) 36.5mg
B3 (niacinamide) 2g
B6 (P5P) 20mg
biotin 8mg

p.m.:

B1 (thiamin mononitrate) 500mg
B3 (niacinamide) 2g
B5 500mg
pantethine 450mg

My reason for separating the biotin and B5 is that I remember reading that they compete for absorption.

I also eat liver and oysters regularly and take a sublingual B12 (both hydroxocobalamin and adenosylcobalamin) on occasion. (For what it is worth, I have discovered the hard way that methylcobalamin and methylfolate make things go haywire, but these are not generally recommended around here, anyway.)

Aspirin is tricky for me. It seems to have some positive effects, but it also clearly exacerbates my longstanding tinnitus. I just posted something about this here.

There's no question that, from a Peat perspective, my diet remains too high in fat and too low in carbohydrate. Even with all of this niacinamide, B1, biotin, and so on, I would have to imagine that the Randle cycle is preventing proper sugar metabolism.

The problem is, every time I have tried to shift this balance in the past, no matter how gradually, very severe blood sugar problems ensued. Low-carb was the only thing that kept blood sugar stable, even as low-carb created more and more problems of its own. I am hoping that this B vitamin regimen will be the key to escaping this Catch-22.

I am also trying to increase caffeine, though I am not very tolerant. An experiment with methylene blue may be called for.

I welcome additional thoughts, particularly from anyone who was actually stuck in the Warburg quicksand and managed to escape.

Zanolachino, reading through your posts makes me think you might have a thyroid issue. Autoimmune skin condition, hypoglycemia/inability to tolerate carbs, low energy... Broda Barnes comes to mind immediately! :) Have you ever tried a thyroid supplement?

Also, I think Ray Peat stated once that aspirin intolerance can go away when people sort out their thyroid.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Niacinamide seems to drive up the need for more sugar. It is easy to get hypoglycemic taking it without lots of sugar.

 

[tara]

Even with all of this niacinamide, B1, biotin, and so on, I would have to imagine that the Randle cycle is preventing proper sugar metabolism.

Seems likely.

The problem is, every time I have tried to shift this balance in the past, no matter how gradually, very severe blood sugar problems ensued.

How did you go about it?
What happened?

Have you got measurements from monitoring temps and pulse?

 

[marikay]

Niacinamide seems to drive up the need for more sugar. It is easy to get hypoglycemic taking it without lots of sugar.

I second this. I can barely handle 50mgs of niacinamide without a boatload of sugar. Any more than that amount of niacinamide or any less than 50 grams of sugar at the same time, and I get a massive headache.